Helpless: eBay Leica fraud (had been cheated $3300)

[joseph_cheng3]

<p><a href="../photodb/user?user_id=6004289">RF_newbie john</a> I don't think his eBay account had been hacked. I know his eBay account did change the shipping address/phone/email often. eBay unregistered his account just because he didn't pay the eBay listing fee. He did give me two bank accounts (both are BOA), one is his company, one is his name. I do think that he did the same fraud before, that's why the bank manager doubted that his bank account is used for illegal activity. And probably, his previous fraud is related to camera too.<br /> After the bank manager held the money, the seller emailed me and asked: "Did you send an abuse to my bank account?" At that time I were still in a mist....<br /> <a href="../photodb/user?user_id=380414">Oskar Ojala</a> I remember my Germany friend told me that EU just unified/standardize the banking systems to make bank payment within EU easier. I do think the Germany eBay sellers Simply don't trust PayPal and the PayPal fee is too expensive. As a seller, what is safest than bank payment?<br /> <a href="../photodb/user?user_id=5964864">John Matheo</a> You are lucky that you can get back your money. This motivates me to put more efforts into my case.<br>

Anyone can share your idea how to put more pressure to the seller effectively?<br /> I am planning to write some formal letters to the bank, the authorities of his state, FBI, and all registered eBay addresses of the seller...<br>

I want to make a website for this case to draw more attention too...<br>

Again, thanks so much, you guys are awesome. I felt extremely helpless before I seek for some advices here.</p>

 

[Komatsu]

<p>Paypal does hold your money for all the reasons that Dieter has listed, unless you have a feedback rating or a detailed sellers rating of a certain amount. I think it's a 100 or more feeback or sellers rating.<br>

It is frustrating, (for a legitimate seller,) to have to wait for Paypal to release the money, especially if it takes the buyer weeks to give you positive feedback. The buyer has 21 days to "evaluate" the purchase before the money is released to the seller.<br>

I suppose this is the only way Paypal can have control over fraudulent transactions, just a little frustrating for the honest sellers.</p>

[mostly sports]

<p>Where are you, where is the seller, and where is the bank account?</p>

[aplumpton]

<p>Joseph,</p>

<p>I too am sorry about your experience. Do try the suggestion made of the FBI. When I bought an estate-sale Leica from Australia I was worried in view of the distance but used a credit card which I was told would provide insurance against false dealing. It cost an extra 2.5% but may have been worth it. Paypal is what I normally use and accept now (it isn't cheap in charges and in currency exchange rates), but I understand their protection ends at $1200. I have used bank transfer before (one to Rumania for a farely rare thousand dollar Leica enlarger lens, another to England, both from North America). I was lucky I guess and do not intend to use bank transfers any more.</p>

<p>I know a month and a half has passed since your purchase, but is it not possible that you still might receive the camera? Delivery delays? I dealt with an excellent camera repainter overseas at one time, paid and had to wait more than a year to receive my camera (a IIIf) back from him. He didn't answer my emails, except when prompted by another Canadian who knew him and visits him occasionally while in his country. It took a long and frustrating time, but I eventually got the camera and it was well finished. He is a professionalphotographer who does the refinishing in spare time and got back-logged in his work. I am not suggesting that your seller is similar in poorly responding, but there is still a small possibility that he may come through. Do keep us posted on how it turns out, and good luck.</p>

[troyammons]

<p>Ebay is risky for large items.<br>

Step one is to check feedback, but sometimes that is flawed. See below.<br>

Step two is to ask for a phone number and talk to the seller personally.<br>

If they won't comply walk away.<br>

Step three is to only use paypal. At least you have some protection with paypal.<br>

There are some tricky ways these guys rip people off. Here are my stories.<br>

1. So I sell a Canon DSLR a while back. The guy does the buy it now wants it shipped overnight which I do. The next day the $ is gone from my paypal account since this guy had stolen someones paypal account.<br>

Turns out he was having it delivered to someone elses address, but he got nervous I guess because I had called him and threatened to have him arrested.<br>

UPS did not deliver it and I got it back the next day.<br>

Story #2. Bought an RZ lens from a guy in Canada. A photographer with a website. I figured it was safe. Looked legit anyway. Paid cashiers check. NEver got the merch. Filed an insurance claim with Ebay and got 50% of my money back. I called him at least 20 times in Ca.<br>

Story #3. I sold a cheap lens. It was small. Guy asked if I could send it US mail. I thought heck its small. cheap to send, etc. I did not purchase delivery confirmation. The guy probably got the item, but contacted paypal and said he did not. I had no proof that it was delivered, so paypal gave him his $ back.<br>

Story #4, the bad luck Kodak.<br>

Sold an SLR/C. Bids went fine. Was contacted by a guy in the far east who wanted to bid, and I said fine as long as you use paypal. He was the winner, but never paid and somehow, since he was the winner, he was able to hack into Ebay and get my user name and passwrd.<br>

He then started sending everybody who bid 2nd offers, I guess to steal $ from every bidder.<br>

After I was contacted by email by a bidder, I contacted Ebay and they stopped him.<br>

Story #4b, the bad luck Kodak again<br>

Put it back up for sale. Sell USA only as I had so many problems before.<br>

Some guy from czech won the bid. I email him but the email address looked odd but I think it was a Czech email address.<br>

Paranoid I started looking around on ebay and accessed the Ebayers info, and it listed an address in Maryland. His phone number was from North Carolina.<br>

I called him and he was in Toronto, at least that is what he said. He did acknowledge he was the winning bidder.<br>

So then I asked him where he was from and he said Arizona.<br>

I then asked him why all of his info did not match up and why his initial info said Czech and he said he was representing someone else in Czech. I proceeded to give him an earfull and he hung up. I contacted Ebay and they refunded the fees and cancelled him.<br>

I sold it the 3rd time no problems.<br>

Point is there are criminals on ebay that really know how to work the system. If they are smooth even a phone call wont help.<br>

I remember reading about a 14YO kid that got busted after doing about 20G in ebay fraud. He said "why are you bothering me. I was just trying to make a little money"<br>

If I were you I would contact Ebay. You might have to go through their insurance program.</p>

<p> </p>

[w_t1]

<p>Even with PayPal you need to be on your toes. I haven't bought or sold anything on Ebay in over a year - a couple weeks ago I got an email saying that I had sent a payment in Eurodollars to someone I've never heard of. Turned out to be almost $300 that was charged to my CC account via PayPal.</p>

<p>I immediately thought the email was phishing or junk, but immediately called CC company who cancelled the transaction and that CC number. Paypal immediately froze my account and cancelled the charge. I thought I had good passwords and all, but I'm in no hurry to use PayPal again after my experience, which is nothing compared to the OP's fraudulent transaction, in terms of dollars.</p>

<p>One thing I messed up on when I set my ebay account up 8 years or so ago was I made my ebay id the same thing as my email, which is really stupid. When I have some time I will change, for instance if eby id is HankAaron for example, my email is HankAaron@hotmail, yahoo etc. dumb dumb i get lots of offers to buy stuff i missed out on bidding lol, funny the seller is always traveling in Europe and send to Western Union lol. Check out 419eater.com</p>

[oskar_ojala]

<p>Joseph, it is true that bank transfer is the most secure means for the seller. And starting this year, the Euro bank transfers have been unified so that paying in Euros incurs no extra fees at all. But the classic fraud here where the seller sells something, gets the money and never ships tends to practically always happen with bank transfers (nobody uses cheques anyway, Western Union is not really used by Europeans either, so that leaves bank transfer, credit card and paypal). Some countries offer a cash on delivery service, which is actually the most secure thing for both parties, but that has a lot of limitations for international use.<br>

Anyway, I think the lack of popularity of PayPal on German eBay is mostly due to culture: PayPal fees are expensive and north Europeans don't like to pay extra ;-) But nowadays sellers seem to offer PayPal and auctions with PayPal tend to get better bids too.</p>

[robert_nancarrow]

<p>As a seller, I would use only a bank transfer with large, international sales as this does indeed protect the seller, but leaves the buyer with little protection. I will never, ever, again trust the paypal "seller protection" program since it is a farce. After selling a cherished 35mm version 1 cron to a supposedly trusted buyer in hong kong, following all of paypal's rules and even talking to a paypal representative about my concerns, the buyer claimed a chargeback 2 months later. His CC company took his side even though I provided proof of shipping, tracking, signature, and his positive feedback to me. Paypal took my money out of my account, charged me a penalty, and now is not answering any of my inquiries about the seller protection except to advise me to contact the buyer to work things out. Right, a crook is going to help me. Beware paypal, they do not stand behind their policies and they aid and abet the thieves.</p><div></div>

[patrick_stack]

<p>I've purchased several items on the famous site, all but one went very well. I bought at first using CC and xxxxxx, then decided only USPS M.O. with sellers that accepted that form of payment. I've read that only xxxxxx is accepted now, won't risk the chance of fraud, no more purchases.</p>

<p>The one bad purchase was with a foreigner living in Los Angeles, Rollei TLR filter, only $43.00 involved, not worth chasing it any more than I did. Total liar and discredit to any form of community activity. Listed "new, unused, old stock." Sent useless, damaged junk. Many e-mails got promises of "honest mistake, assistants fault, will send the correct one, in Jamaica on photo shoot at present, will contact you when at home" on and on.</p>

<p>Complaint resulted in zero results or enforcement of policy, said they contacted him three times as is their way of handling complaints, he never responded, "matter considered closed." Exactly how can that be a proper way of handling a legitimate claim of fraud? The emails are a matter of record, the junk sent could be examined, sellers promise to make it good is there to be seen by anyone the least interested in resolution of the matter for a site member.</p>

<p>Even more disappointing is the matter of a fraudulent seller being allowed to continue on the site, today he's still selling, feedback is as dismal as ever. For all their claims of security, efficiency and ease of transactions, when things go wrong, YOU are on YOUR own.</p>

<p>From the complaints I've read of late the site in question commits the same fraud as the original thief, by letting it just go by with a statement of "you should contact the seller, the bank, or whoever can get US off the hook for something that happened on OUR site."</p>

<p>Bye bye, x<strong>X</strong>xx, no more biz from me. </p>

[g-man1]

In my case ($95000 car), I registered the guys name as a website and forwarded it to a car forum that had all the details

on it. The used car dealer was a real sonofab&$@$ but everyone knew about it. He ocassionally still logs on using

pseudonyms and makes personal threats, etc. I actually had to delete my personal photos here and use a pseudonym

(thank you Josh!) at my wife's insistence. The BBB was useless as he wasn't a member. The state revoked his license.

He moved and a reporter learned of him through the web so he's not gone far there either. The lawyers were too

expensive and useless (USA and Canada). The good money (45000)I kept and used to fix the car rather than pay the

lawyers.

Thanks for letting us know about this creep. Be brave and resolute.

[kbg32]

<p>I would never send money other then PayPal. Money transfers are a sure sign of a scam. <br>

Sorry for your loss.</p>

[rafael_s]

<p>I really hope things turn out for the better and this guy is caught. A few years ago we were broken into and they stole most of my camera and computer equipment, as well as a lot of other things. The police did nothing even though I had every serial number and pictures. I tracked the stuff myself and in a few weeks found my stuff being sold in another city, in another state on Craigslist. I personally responded through email via Craigslist using a fake name and email address. A few days later I drove out there and set up to meet the guy and see the items first hand. They were all mine. I asked how he aquired them and he made up some bogus story which obviously sounded like a lie. I called the local police there... nothing happend. So I took matters into my own hands. I went out late one Sunday night at around 3 am, broke into his car, rigged the ignition, and drove it a few miles down the road then pushed it into a lake.</p>

[jimmy_peterson1]

<p>Joseph, I'm being completely honest in saying that for a matter of $3,300, I'd just go ahead and hop on a plane for the U.S. and pay him as well as his local police department a visit. Perhaps an official inquiry from the police (even over the phone) might be enough to scare him into returning the stolen funds. I would also contact a lawyer working in the immediate area in which he resides and see if you could coordinate a lawsuit of some sort. Who knows?<br />I would not just eat the $3,300. <br />Please believe me when I tell you that trying to dispute a transaction such as this from where you are is simply futile. No law enforcement agency will take you seriously. <br />Filing a bunch of complaints from behind your computer is an exercise that will end in nothing but frustration.<br />If you do nothing, he will just walk away from the whole affair unscathed, smugly gloating over the theft. <br />Bottom line, even if you don't end up recovering your money, a nice 3 day trip to the U.S. culminating in a bat swing into the perpetrator's face might bring you all the relief you are liable to procure in such a situation. <br>

My 2 cents.<br>

<br />And yes, I am advocating violence because it unfortunately happens to be the only means of communication that people who casually steal from others are able to comprehend.</p>

[dennisbarnett]

<p>I was suckered once too on ebay, many years ago. As they say, if the price is too good, then it's not for real. When it happens to someone, it should only happen once in a lifetime, that's the only good news here. It's very easy to learn from our experiences.<br>

I have done alot of watch trading in the past 10 years, but not on ebay because I'm dealing with expensive items. I've never had a bad transaction on multiple watch collecting sites, because one thing I've learned well is that one <em>buys the seller</em> as much as the item. This is true with ebay as well. If you can't determine who the seller is, and their reputation, simply avoid the purchase. There will always be another one.<br>

Good luck recovering your money. Ebay, unfortunately, is an easy target for thieves. And they could care less about you if you don't use PayPal which they own.</p>

[marc_felber1]

<p>I would hire the Mafia to go after this crook.</p>

[mjferron]

<p>My condolences. I only buy from Ebayers located in my country and who regularly sell photo equipment with a good track record. 100% positive selling comic books is not going to convince me to buy that Leica M7 you now have listed. No way. No offense to anyone but I refuse to send my money across the ocean knowing how little power I really have if something goes wrong. Best of luck to you on getting this settled. </p>

[dennis_knoxville]

<blockquote>

<p>This is news to me. Whenever I've sold something on eBay the money has been transferred to my Paypal account as soon as payment was made and I've been able to transfer the money to my bank account.<strong><em> </em><em> </em></strong><em><strong><br /></strong></em><br>

<em><strong>Yep---I sell frequently on ebay (I have a Canon Rebel there now).....and this is relatively recent policy. Payments for certain "high risk" items for sale are held until buyer satisfaction is obtained or a number of days has past.</strong></em><br>

<em><strong>This policy was in effect for me on both photo equipment and audio/video electronics.</strong></em><br>

<strong><em>This was not the case a few months ago </em></strong><br>

<em><strong></strong></em></p>

</blockquote>

[marc_felber1]

<p>I guess will have to find other ways to sell our gear without getting ripped off by the buyers such as selling through Art Morris, this website, etc.</p>

[kelly_flanigan1]

<p>Joseph;SORRY for your loss;<br>

<br /> Here I really have had few if any issues ; I buy stuff at thrift stores. mail order; junk yards; flew markets; ham radio swap meets; garage sales ; Ebay etc.</p>

<p>I also have had no issue with Brooklyn camera dealers either: I have bought alot of oddball stuff from old Cambridge Camera with no hitches either.</p>

<p>With Ebay I have bought and sold about 5000 items combined. With mailorder I have bought stuff since the 1950's. I tend probably do an order of magnitude or two more research on a buy compared to other folks.<br /> Once in the late 1950's I ordered an aero ektar surplus for 5 bucks and it came in freight collect at the train station; I totally screwed up and assumed freight was trivial. The giant mounted lens in the cameras frame cost more in frieght than the lens. My gross mistake early on is what I learned from.</p>

<p>I use to sell custom greeting cards door to door when a kid; and got burned with non/slow payers a few times; I think this helped me smell out rats better.</p>

<p>I bought by LTM new summicron for 1250 bucks via a bank transfer in the USA. I used a bank transfer for about 5200 for a spare used 4x5 scan back on Ebay from Hong Kong about 8 years ago. My Bessa R; 15mm VC were bought from Hong Kong using paypal. My Epson RD-1 was from tokyo via paypal.</p>

<p>Last month I bought a pallet worth of oddball discontinued vellum for printing on ebay using a bank transfer fro about 500 bucks. I bought a carton of 2 rolls and tested it out; then bought a lifetime supply and had it shipped via truck to cut the freight down. Each roll costs me about 150 each as a printer when it was available; I got 22 rolls at about 23 bucks each with freight; a massive steal. This seller had a poorer rating.<br /> In minor stuff from Germany that is in the 100 buck or less range I have just used cash in the mail.</p>

<p>The bulk of the 1 and 2 camera body/combo Rusian stuff I bought before 9/11 was with 20 dollar bills in the mail. If a ebay seller doesnt seem/smell correct with a larger purchase; I pass. Thus with bigger several hundred dollar buys I tend to buy from sellers that have been around; folks who I have already bought stuff from.</p>

<p>I buy low cost stuff from even flakey folks; but high end stuff from better sellers.</p>

<p>Thus my Epson RD-1/s for 2200 was from a dealer that who has a long track record; somebody I have already bought from.</p>

<p>In buying Russian Zorkis with lens and case for 11 bucks; say 18 with shipping; I use to just use a 20 dollar bill and buy from anybody in the Ukraine or Russia; and never had any issues with many many dozens of buys.</p>

<p>The *BIGGEST* issues I have had with ebay is selling stuff to Canada; UPS always gets thru but buyers whine about duties; with USPS delivery time is days to several months or never; buyer have ziltch duties but the package gets lost or delayed; like the Canadian postal workers are gone fishing or playing hockey.</p>

<p>With my own ebay buys; I have had two about say 60 buck items never get to the USA; a total loss.</p>

<p>I use to buy an sell stuff on Shutterbug Yellow Pages; rag dinky newsletter; then yellow newspaper in the 1970's. I lived close to Florida for a few years and would get the yellow newletter the next day at a post office; I would skim the deals; fire off a money order via airmail that day and would snipe *deals*. Then I would resell the stuff the next month or two later. One would call up Glen and Patti Patch and place an advert verbally in the early days; I had a cash balance they took the fees from. I might buy a 545 Polaroid adapter for 20 bucks; and resell it for 35 to 45 bucks. If some buyer called me from say Columbus Ohio and I knew them or had seen them on Shutterbug; I just mailed/UPSed off the 545 adapter and then they would mail me a check. About 1/2 of my buys were 50 bucks of less stuff; I just mailed off cash thru the mail.</p>

<p>Paying not using paypal and with a bank transfer has its risks. I am afraid that non of this stuff where folks have losses is really anything new; it existed way before Ebay in mailkorder; fraud even goes back to the beginning of time with business transactions.</p>

<p>Trying to get ones money back from sale/purchase in another country is tough; about impossible.</p>

[User_502260]

<p>Before the time of eBay I bought some items from classified ads and CameraShopper ads. I bought a Vivitar 2X Macro Focusing teleconverter in Minolta mount. The payment was made with a Postal Money Order and I think it was sent by Priority Mail with Delivery Confirmation. After about ten days I tried to contact the seller. It takes a while to see who cashed a money order but the Delivery Confirmation is usually faster. A few days later I filled out the paperwork at the Post Office and a Postal Inspector contacted the seller. He got upset and left me a phone message but then mailed the item right out. At this point I think the authorities have simply lost patience because of the large number of transactions and the unreliability of the methods both buyers and sellers to combat fraud. </p>

[sitemistic]

<p>I use Paypal's Secure ID device. End of worries about the account getting hacked.</p>

[joseph_cheng3]

So many sad stories...

Now I am busy to prepare documents and letters for my actions.

I strongly believe one day he will pay for what he did so I will not give up.

[paul_neuthaler]

<p>USE PAYPAL & ONLY WITH YOUR CREDIT CARD -- NOT FROM YOUR BANK ACCOUNT. PAYPAL IS NOT AS SAFE AS YOU MAY THINK!!!!</p>

[jeff_guthrie]

<p>I have been buying and selling on eBay now for years without any problems. First, when looking at an item I check the seller's feedback. I look primarily at items which the seller has recently sold. If he specializes in selling Peanuts figurines, or has not made any sales a long time, and is suddenly selling a Leica M8 for a few thousand dollars I am going to be very suspicious. One of the big problems nowadays is sellers having their user ID stolen, so the seller's feedback might look good, but it's phony.<br>

Never, ever, under any circumstances, no matter what, no matter how badly you want it pay by money order or bank transfer. People who routinely buy and sell online will say that if you pay in such a way and get ripped off, you pretty much deserved it. <em><strong>Always</strong></em> pay by Paypal or credit card. Some people may not like the fees involved, but they are worth it for the protection they provide. If a buyer refuses to accept Paypal or a credit card, I will not bid on the item.<br>

And, if something like this happens, do as you did and post your experience anywhere and everywhere you can. It may be too late for you to do anything about it, but other people will hopefully read about your experience and be more careful themselves.<br>

Someone mentioned earlier that Paypal places a hold on payments until an item is received by the buyer. This is not entirely true. A hold may be placed if the buyer or seller has little or no feedback, or if the buyer's or seller's Paypal accounts are unconfirmed. I've had an issue or two with Paypal in the past, but as they are the best option available now, I use them pretty much exclusively. If a seller directly accepts credit card payments, I will sometimes choose that option. I have sometimes made payments by money order in the past, mainly to mom-and-pop sellers for inexpensive items (my GF happens to collect Snoopy items). In these situations the risk is minimal, and I'm not going to have a cow if someone rips me off out of $10.</p>

[Troll]

<p>I'm sorry you got rooked!<br>

I've been trying to follow this thread, and don't understand most of it. I'm a buyer only, not a seller, and have had problems with Paypal ever since the very first week they started (although they have gotten a lot better in the last year). I pay with my credit card through them -- they're not touching my bank account.</p>