How do you see the 'uptightness' of coffee shop snaps?

[manuel barrera houston,]

<blockquote>

<p>I don't like to take images of people eating or drinking,....<br>

Why do you feel that way if you can tell me..Manuel. I would be interested. Too personal, too intimate, too likely to wind up on the internet with a lawsuit on the way?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>No as to the lawsuit never crosses my mind, if you don't have much they normally don't bother as they say in law school don't spend good money after bad money, Lawyers don't work for free. Besides I am not sure that they would have a basis for a lawsuit if I published the photo, assuming there are no signs that prohibit photography in the place. <br>

I guess it would fall into the personal, if I don't feel well doing it I don't. I have passed up some images that fall into that catagory. We have to have ethics and do what we feel is right. Some instances that I recall not taking were a street person who was asleep on the side walk on a very cold morning he had a stump for a leg that was outside the blanket and some ice had formed on the leg. Another was a handicap individual that had fallen from a wheel chair was trying to get attention as he lay on the ground. Those are but two that I passed up, there have been others as I almost always have a camera with me. I passed up on the images because I did not want to tempt myself by posting the images in the future. There are exceptions, children having fun eating and cake all over their faces, for example.<br>

You made me think as to why.</p>

 

[GerrySiegel]

<blockquote>

<p>....will hang beside the glowing, finished, acclaimed portrait of this young women and we shall call them <em>Studies for Portrait of Sherry</em>.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Thanks Fred. I will nourish that thought. I can see it now, when my 'Sherry' gets on to Antiques Roadshow and the appraiser says " Ahah, an early sketch by Gerry.From his early meshuggah period as well... ":-) A kind thought anyway. No Sherry went and got herself married young and left the island, A lovely person inside and out. Why I like people stuff,</p>

[Tim_Lookingbill]

<p>Just conducted a google image search using "people in coffee shop", "coffee shop", etc. and couldn't find one interesting image out of the bunch.</p>

<p>Anyone want to give it try? I may not be so good at google image searches.</p>

<p>Gerry, nice shot of Sherry. However, I can't tell where's she's at except from you saying she was in a coffee shop.</p>

[john_elder1]

<p>Nobody is required to get explicit permission to shoot a candid photograph on private property. The owner of the property has one remedy only and that is to tell the photographer to leave. If the photographer fails to leave, then a criminal charge of trespass can be filed against the photographer. I have taken countless shots on private property, malls , book stores, escalators, bus terminals, airports, etc. On the few occasions i have been approched by a security guard and told not to photograph, I either leave(although I haven't been told to leave) or stop shooting for a short while and then keep shooting unless thrown out. I have never been thrown out of any place for taking photographs. The important part here is that unless the owner's agent tells you to leave the premisies and you fail to leave, nothing can be done to you, even if you continue to shoot. They have to tell you to leave, it is the owners only remedy.</p>

[john_elder1]

<p>The above paragraph does not include those areas that are posted as private property, no tresspassing. In that situation you have already been given notice not to be on premises. My first paragraph applies to quasi-public areas that are privately owned but invite customers or others to enter the property for whatever reason.</p>

[john_h.1]

<p>John, George was asking what management may worry about if people take photographs, not whether they they are able to prevent it. What do you think their motives are if they wish to forbid photography?</p>

[sarah_fox]

<p>Hi Gerry,</p>

<p>At times (and usually) I live a very high stress life. I suppose it's my personality. Some things are stress relievers for me, like cooking, sharing and enjoying a good meal with someone I love, enjoying a tall glass of Coke (with lots of ice), or being pampered at some establishment where oters provide me with food and drink, good service, and hopefully a friendly smile.</p>

<p>Danny Meyer (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danny_Meyer">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danny_Meyer</a>), wrote a book named "Setting the Table," in which he discusses the concept of hospitality and its role in the success of a business. In short, people live stressed lives and gravitate towards businesses that provide excellent customer experiences. Hospitality can be a powerful commodity, and it is the #1 reason why someone would have a pizza delivered, rather than popping a DiGourno pizza in the oven. They feel good when someone drives through the rain to deliver a hot, yummy meal to their door. It's also the #1 reason why people enjoy going to restaurants and being pampered there.</p>

<p>When you enter a coffee shop with a camera and start snapping pics of the patrons, that brings stress into an environment the patrons expect/need to be stress-free. Most people don't like being photographed. Even when they do, being photographed is still a hassle, because people are self-conscious about how they're seated, what they're doing, where they're looking, whether their best side is facing the camera, or whatever. People don't want to think about that. They just want to sip their coffee, read the paper, and/or chat with their friends.</p>

<p>You only have to consider the relatively minor sin of talking on cell phones in restaurants (bringing business into a restful environment) to realize how enormous a sin photography can be. All of these things diminish the experience of the patron, which is ultimately what the coffee shop is selling. I would frankly have the very same response of asking you (politely and gently) to put away your camera, even as someone sympathetic to photographers. I would want my customers to leave my establishment happy and rested, so that they would want to return the next day. If they leave annoyed or pissed, they're not as likely to return.</p>

[GerrySiegel]

<p>Sarah, I totally agree. It is at the core a matter of being polite or being rude. Your points are strong,no quarrel.<br /> Coffee shop etiquette is an interesting thing, isn't it? There is the guy, in a small shop I know who sets up his office you could almost call it on two adjacent tables. If you ask him if that table is vacant he will say " I am expecting someone." And we know he is not. Now I am one of these days going to sit down there maybe and say " Well, I will leave as soon as your guest arrives, hope that's OK." And then there are those who have their battery laptop charger wires all over the place.</p>

<p>Some things we do out of courtesy, others out of blind habit we choose to call courtesy. For example, Sarah, (and I say this out of some dislike of the lack of facilities provided, like adequate toilets in one place) Where is it written I have to <em>bus</em> my own table? I mean just that. Where does it say I have to bus my own table. I used to be a paid busboy at one time and it is part of food service mgt responsibilty. Are we not, I imply, "subsidizing" the coffee shop when we clean up our own coffee mess and lowering their personnel costs.? (Think on that cosmic one, that in passing ,or when you have time on your hand,or sippin' a latte,I get mad as hell when one place just took its lav out cause it was costing too much to upkeep, no fooling ...).</p>

<p>Aloha and I wish you well and thank you for a thoughtful contribution. The coffee shop has become what it seeks to be to justify the price of its milk based beverages as I see it too. And great ideas have always been inspired by caffeine. Example: <em>The American Revolution.</em></p>

<p>PS: I wonder now, will it soon be thought "rude" to peek over at what a patron in the lounge chair is viewing on their new high res screen <em>iPADs.</em>..Could she be looking at PN's Critique Forum. And is that...(heavens to Murgetroyd!)? :-)...</p>

[GerrySiegel]

<p>@John Elder, interesting point in the spirit of discusssion. <br>

It is not like you just photographed the containment around a China Nuclear plant and they'll come and lift you off your chair, confiscate camera , and then ship you to Outer Mongolia for a coffee shop' breach' even with prior intent to commit a premeditated unauthorized candid.</p>

[clgriffin]

<p>If I hang out at a place, after a while they know the camera is part of me and I get accepted for what I do.</p><div></div>

[GerrySiegel]

<p>That is one warm smile photo, Charles. I gotta go get a cuppa...</p>

[Tim_Lookingbill]

<p>Gerry and Charles, you should go complain to the manager of the coffee shops you frequent for the bad lighting.</p>

<p>I dare you.</p>

<p>Now that's a happy customer in that shot, Charles. Nice capture.</p>

<p>Wish I saw more those types in my local coffee shop, but most of them have their faces buried in a newspaper, magazine or laptop and only raise their head to take a sip ignoring my glances toward them for a friendly "Hi, how ya' doin'. Nice morning, isn't it?"</p>

<p>Sarah, you nailed it with your first comment. I'm surprised how many folks don't like their picture taken.</p>

[Norma Desmond]

<p><strong>Tim</strong>, the other day I was on a beach on a nice day and saw an interesting-looking and acting person frolicking with his dog. I struck up a conversation with him and he seemed very open and engaging. After a bit, I asked him if I could photograph him. He said he really didn't like being photographed. I said I understood and said that one thing about be the photographer in the family (and among friends) is that I rarely get asked to have my picture taken. (Sometimes, it's as if I wasn't even there, when we look through recent photo albums.) Anyway, he laughed and said he might think about getting himself a camera for that very reason. I laughed, too, and then found a couple of other people to photograph.</p>

[john_elder1]

<p>Most people I shoot , inside or out, don't know I photographed them. Being a photographer I will risk being rude if i see a scene that seriously interests me and snap away. With the coming of the digital age, photography is becoming more accepted and much more frequent. Check out all the cell phones capable of photography. Good for us film shooters.</p>

[mike dixon]

<p><em>Most people don't like being photographed. Even when they do, being photographed is still a hassle, because people are self-conscious about how they're seated, what they're doing, where they're looking, whether their best side is facing the camera, or whatever.</em></p>

<p>I see this sentiment expressed on photo.net about a hundred times more often than I see it when I'm out photographing people in the "real world." It's very rare that I encounter anyone who shows any indication of stress about being photographed. Maybe I'm doing it wrong.<em><br /></em></p>

[GerrySiegel]

<p>Mike, thanks for helping me feel perhaps a bit less 'subversive' at the end of it all. I have a hunch you are on to something. Without me getting carried away with the perceived new spirit, of course. (I had someone pull a cane knife in front of me once near one of our banks so I tread carefully re privacy as know not who is out there. Hey, why you giving me stink face thing). <br>

It is relative of course, but you know, I think the photographer is a reticent subject before the camera him and herself and projects that reticence just a little. Not to push the point, but just maybe.</p>

[luis_g]

<p> I didn't mean to imply that there's nothing to photograph in cafes, that one shouldn't do it, or that it's not worth it. I routinely photograph at one cafe that I frequent.</p>

<p> </p>

[clgriffin]

<p>Reticent subject? Not me. I'm a ham--perform public poetry. I get shot a lot and people often give me copies.</p>

<p>Although this shot is not from a coffee shop, just a local pretend Irish pub.</p><div></div>

[GerrySiegel]

<p>Nice cheery photo of you Charles<br>

My 15 yo grandaugter captured yours truly w a Canon T 90 about 8 years ago. (I was testing that Kodak black and white stuff that you can process with C 41 labs at the time can't recall the name of it).<br>

She was a pretty good novice photographer with a not so great model subject.<br>

Just another no hassle coffee shop snap, with not a lot of Starbucks ambience in it.<br>

Slainte you too Charles, and we also add a L'Chaim to that toast...</p><div></div>

[clgriffin]

<p>Ilford came out with XP1 and Kodak countered with BW400CN (doesn't exactly trip off the tongue), both were chromogenic film, I think.<br>

Having already done injury with the photo above, I won't add insult by showing how my grandgirl photographs me. I'll just say that Frankenstein's monster is less scary.</p>

[Tim_Lookingbill]

<p>But most of what's been posted here are straight on posed snaps of folks with all the ambience of their environment cropped out. What story is it telling? Here's a person sitting at a table with a drink in their hand? Why would I want to look at that? Not saying your self portrait is bad, Charles, just saying it doesn't make it a cafe shot because I don't see the cafe or pub. It's all cropped out.</p>

<p>How do you create with composition and lighting a shot of a person in a cafe that says something about that person in relation to the place they are at? There really isn't a lot to work with in such a shot unless it's a candid where you've captured some unique body language and/or expression on their face that relates to where they're at and tells the viewer this person wasn't aware they were being watched.</p>

<p>Did anyone come up with an interesting shot by conducting a google image search?</p>

[dave_s]

<p>Not sayin' it's the interesting shot Tim called for, but I just remembered this one I took a few years ago. Victoria, B.C., Canada, a city long on ambience and low on uptightness. I don't know if anyone noticed I took this, or cared if they did.<br />

<p><img src="http://d6d2h4gfvy8t8.cloudfront.net/4069471-lg.jpg" alt="" /></p>

</p>

[GerrySiegel]

<p>Just for you Tim, you remember that cute Joyce the manager. I got her on digital pulling the machine espresso shots with her special touch. With a C 505 Camedia and a little bit, not too much, available on camera mini flash...Can you smell the coffee, ahhhh...Plus no extra fee and no tip anticipated, a cheerful smile and a friendly howarya? with each Grande/ Mediium I always asked for... I used to get to know these young ladies and vice versa,<br>

I was that gray bearded guy with the big shepherd dog peering through the window .While I got the brew and a rugelach to share with my canine companion as he scared off the mynah birds.</p><div></div>

[Tim_Lookingbill]

<p>Dave, that's the ambience I was talking about. Nice shot.</p>

<p>Gerry, from the looks of that Starbucks shot of Joyce you seem to have established a very good rapport with the folks at that particular coffee shop but the flash takes away from the intimacy of the moment making it look more like a snap shot for a memory keepsake. Catching that guy in the upper right corner looks interesting.</p>

<p>But whenever I get to know folks and they get to know me in a place I frequent, I always feel I lose my objectivity in how I capture them with my camera. I get too preoccupied and conscientious of their reaction to where I place the camera and the moment I decide to trip the shutter. Plus they always adjust themselves into a pose pattern whenever they know I'm about to shoot.</p>

<p>Candids like Dave's shot would be the way I'ld approach the subject.</p>

[tom_mann1]

<p>Tim, you raise a very good point. I interpreted your challenge as asking to see interesting images of people in cafes / coffee shops where the environment is not cropped out, it provides critically important context, and the image as a whole shows good craftsmanship, is compelling and shows good composition and design principles such as control of the viewer's eye movement, lack of clutter, etc.</p>

<p>I agree with you that Google Images offers very few images that meet the above criteria, so I tried some of the stock agencies such as Istockphotos, Getty, Fotosearch. I searched these collections using searches such as {cafe coffee shop}. I got plenty of hits which met almost all of the above criteria. The only problem was that I found none of them to be compelling. Almost without exception, the stock photos were insipid posed shots of vapid, forever-smiling people, albeit lit perfectly, with perfect color balance, shot with a DOF and from an angle that suggested the location in a cafe or coffee shop, but which, in actuality, hardly mattered. The stock shots did absolutely nothing for me. </p>

<p>The question is why are images of the sort we are looking for so difficult to find. My guess is that one important factor is the visual clutter present in coffee shops. This almost certainly drives photographers to tightly cropped images, but then the link to the environment is lost. Another factor is almost certainly the banality / over-familiarity with the situation (eg, how many shots do you have taken from your drive to work, in the parking lot of your local mall, etc.). Unless something interesting is going on (eg, a band playing, someone making a toast, smooching, an argument, etc.) what's the point of memorializing an instant in one of places in a photo?</p>

<p>"Interesting" shots can certainly be taken in a coffee shop environment, but as you so aptly noted, they do seem few and far between.</p>

<p>Tom M.</p>