Your Thoughts Concerning Harassment

[Jeff Lear]

<p>I want to clear a few things up. We did not involve the trooper, he arrived a couple minutes after the security guard left and we just assumed that he had been called by the refinery security. Now that I think about it, some of the things he said would indicate that he had been briefed on the conversation we had with the security guard.</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p> The whole gambit of purposely not saying who you are and why you are there ignites a problem</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>We did tell him exactly why we were there. I even tried to show him pictures which is more than I had to do but I didn't want him thinking that I was trying to be evasive or rude.</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>I would rather have Jeffs feelings hurt than a refinery blown up</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>So would I! However, my feelings weren't hurt.</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>Shooting images of a refinery at night and not wanting to show ones ID maybe is folks want; but the same folks will be crying if gas hits 8 bucks a gallon because a nut fired a shoulder launched rocket at a refinery.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I have to admit, this sounds eerily reminiscent of the wild conjecture I heard from a security guard and state trooper just a couple nights ago. I would have shown the trooper my I.D. had he asked to see it but he didn't.</p>

<p>I would be more suspicious of someone taking photographs of a refinery during the day as they offer very little in the way of visual/artistic interest during daylight hours other than to document the processes taking place there. At night they are a virtual wonderland of lights and steam and flame that are infinitely interesting to photograph. Photograph a Christmas tree in daylight and it looks like a tree with every branch and needle clearly defined along with its path to the trunk, photograph it at night and it looks like nothing more than a bunch of lights.</p>

[akgraham]

<p>I have never given ID in a situation like this. I don't wait for someone to come and ask me - if I see that an encounter is going to happen I casually walk over hand outstretched and introduce myself. Sometimes I would identify my car so they can take the number to show they have exerted due diligence or whatever. All this "serial taking of offence" I leave to others.</p>

<p>Grumpy, unpleasant people may sometimes come and talk to you, ask for ID (or in another recent post - evangelise); after all, you are in public. There is always the exceptional case but really, in Jeff's case, whose rights were trampled?</p>

[Tim_Lookingbill]

<blockquote>

<p>There has to be a balance and sometimes the scales get tipped in the wrong direction.</p>

</blockquote>

<blockquote>

<p>...I would characterize his tone as more angry and antagonistic.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Both officers have a brain, training, a two way radio transceiver and a gun. The scales were already tipped to their advantage.</p>

<p>The law kicks in to maintain balance for the citizen's rights when the security guard made the decision to become angry and antagonistic. On top of that the security guard paid by Shell was over extending his jurisdiction by confronting them on public land.</p>

<p>That security guard waisted precious time jacking with people not on Shell's property when he could've been chasing other potential terrorists actually on property.</p>

<p>Face it. The security guard has a very boring job so his testosterone ramps up and he uses Jeff and Lacy as a way to blow off steam. He used 9/11 fear mongering to allow him to bully them.</p>

<p>That's why we have rights so we can balance against such tactics which have been happening all the time before 9/11 and after. Does anyone remember how such police tactics were used to murder blacks during the civil rights struggle during the '50's and '60's? </p>

<p>Now it's open season on everybody, not just blacks.</p>

[john_macpherson]

<p>Mikael K has generously offered both his experiecne and assistance in this matter, and I hope it is accepted and acted upon?</p>

<p>When confronted like this myself, I am polite, firm and sure of my rights. Generally the people I am dealing with are not aware of those rights, or choose to pretend that they have powers way beyond the reality of their situation.</p>

<p>It is a VERY good idea to report these situations to the various powers that be as Mikael has said, because if you dont, the people treading on your rights will assume they can do the same with everyone.</p>

[akgraham]

<p>If the <em>intention</em> is to be offended, here are some tips on how to ensure you get their attention:</p>

<p><a href="http://lightchasersphotography.com/blog/how-to-shoot-photographs-like-a-terrorist/">http://lightchasersphotography.com/blog/how-to-shoot-photographs-like-a-terrorist/</a></p>

[mizore]

<p>My brother was a painter who'd gotten permission from the facilities manager to paint old textile buildings and new construction in Kannapolis, NC. Some security guards insisted on taking him in to the building facilities manager's office where the woman who was the facilities manager explained who he was and confirmed that he had permission to paint buildings in the area.</p>

<p>That's what they're into doing to a landscape painter of buildings that were either about to be torn down or which were under construction.</p>

[laceyhughes]

<p>For Kelly, and whoever else might think it a good idea to approach a Police K9 Unit: <br>

<img src="http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh199/jl_murphy/0306002033.jpg" alt="" /><br>

"I am the type of guy who walks towards the mean ass police dog if he has one; like the dog is my long lost friend; confident and with no conflicts. This puts the dog at ease; non threatening moves. Learn to read the guard, dog or cop. You might be a nut case with a gun and shoot them; they do not know who you are; or why you are there. It is loony to provoke a conflict where it does not have to be." <br>

I really hope you meant that in a figurative manner. I too come from a long line, with myself included, of police and military. It is NEVER a good idea to approach a K9 unit! By doing so you are posing a threat and are asking to become a chew toy. I am having a hard time deciphering all of your babble here. Unless I'm missing something between your thoughts and the typed lines, you are talking about creating a conflict situation, but then turn around and say that it's looney to provoke conflict. </p>

[chelsea]

<p>May I emphasize Lacey's point: NEVER NEVER NEVER approach a K9 unit without a VALID REASON. There's no need for it, it's just stupid. He's not the neighbour's pet, he's a WORKING dog, and doesn't need distraction. My brother was a K9 officer with a 107 pound German shepherd for 9 years, and had very strict rules regarding his dog, whether "on duty" or not. Dogs don't recognize a time clock. There's a good reason for the "stay clear" warning written on the car, K9 dogs are VERY territorial when it comes to "their" vehicle. The same goes for any kind of guide dog, DO NOT distract the dog. You're not doing them any favours.</p>

<p>As to the main subject, harrassment by security guards, this is one reason I don't go shooting in places like oil refineries unless I know someone there and have express permission. I'm the person always picked out of the crowd to get hassled, no matter how innocent my actions. Whenever I'm approached I'm polite, explain what I'm doing, but there comes a point where I stand my ground. If it's a security guard asking for my i.d., I'd ask him if I were breaking any laws, and exactly what statute? If he/she becomes belligerant, I ask for their name. I would follow Mikael's advice on writing complaints, in as polite and objective a way as possible. Fortunately I've never been pushed to that point. I guess I'm just getting to that age where I don't put up with someone's unnecessary belligereant crap anymore. </p>

[User_2000406]

<p>I had a similar situation a couple of years ago in Louisiana: http://www.photo.net/photography-news-forum/00T0Gc. When accosted by the security guard I was very cooperative and erased the single photo I had taken, but then I was far closer to the facility and I may have inadvertently been on private property (a small paved turnout off a public road). </p>

<p>Shortly after that the sheriff's deputies pulled me over on a public road after the guard had called in my license plate number. Again I was fully cooperative, because I was an urban Californian with long hair traveling in the rural South and with a flight to catch in less than 48 hours. I was not familiar with Louisiana law (though it turns out there is no law prohibiting what I was doing) and did not want to risk being detained and missing my flight or worse, let alone an out-of-state court battle.</p>

<p>The deputies made it very clear that in Louisiana they don't want you photographing any sort of oil or gas facilities under any circumstances, no matter from how far away. The irony is that real terrorists could still sneak photos of forbidden subjects using widely-available equipment known to all of us, while legitimate photography is obvious enough to get immediate attention from security and law enforcement personnel eager to prove they are doing their job.</p>

<p>At least all the people involved were courteous, but I was still left upset by the experience.</p>

<p> </p>

[carbon_dragon]

<p>Wouldn't it be nice to live in a world where the law enforcement officials knew the law, remained polite, and had a bit of common sense? Unfortunately that world exists only in Adam-12 and Dragnet.</p>

<p>Even the Hollywood representation of police these days (I'm a fan of CSI, CSI NY, NCIS, and others) tend to treat the police as well meaning, but constantly stretching the law to save time or solicit confessions. And it's all treated as a nudge nudge wink wink to the actual laws. The "perp" is threatened, lied to, interrogated and occasionally even roughed up because in the TV show he's usually guilty. And no-one ever says "Sorry Mr. XXX I was pretty rough with you and it turned out you were innocent after all." Is it any wonder that security guards watching the same shows take an overly-aggressive stance and make a confrontation out of what should be a courteous encounter?</p>

<p>As a normal citizen you have to be afraid of them and hence courteous and patient (which you should be anyway) but they only have to be afraid of you if you have enough money to make their lives interesting. Maybe the solution is to show up on the refinery road with not only your camera and tripod but maybe a $300,000 supercar, or a limo.</p>

<p>Here is something to think about for the police and security guards. It's true every encounter could be a dangerous one, and you probably should never relax your guard. But every encounter is also an opportunity to convince the public that they are thoughtful, responsible enforcers of the law that the public should support. Every encounter is an opportunity to make a GOOD impression on the public. Every BAD encounter will be repeated widely and will become another datapoint toward the attitude that police are a necessary evil that we may have to support, but only to the minimum degree necessary. That isn't what the police want us to be thinking the next time a bond issue comes up to increase police salaries, or the next time a policeman needs some support from the public.</p>

[Tim_Lookingbill]

<p>Also you never know if the officer/security guard in question hates his job and/or boss enough to do something stupid just so he can be put on administrative leave.</p>

<p>Sounds like a vacation more than a reprimand or firing.</p>

[mikael_karlsson]

<p>David:<br /> <br /> Some very good points. Nobody - including guilty "perps" - should be afraid of LE in a civilized country. When people are that is a sign we, as LE, need to look long and hard at what we're doing, why, and why it is having the effects it does. <br /> <br /> True that the guard never drops. This isn't any excuse to treat anyone poorly though. I can be 100% attentive of everything going on around me and still be polite - it really isn't all that hard. It is also true that in some situations we probably tend to be more on our guard than is needed because of past history etc. But, when being "on your guard" might mean the difference between getting shot and not, it kind of takes on a different tone compared, say, to a cashier being "on guard" looking for mislabeled merchandise. Again, being on guard doesn't mean anything but that though and it certainly doesn't excuse people behaving poorly.<br /> <br /> I think it's important for people not in LE to know that the discussion of how LE can improve in the eyes of the public is something that is taken very seriously - at least in most places. We must know, and really understand, that what is true for others is also true for us. If I expect people to treat me the way I treat them, isn't the reverse also true? Of course it is.<br /> <br /> If I behave like a bafoon and a jackass and treat people poorly, should I be surprised if they cuss me out? Heck no. I shouldn't be even the slightest surprised if they cuss me out even if I'm treating them with kid's gloves. Patience is a huge part of any LE work where you come in direct contact with the GP.<br /> <br /> Yes, it's potentially dangerous interacting with the GP - especially in custody-type or forced-authority-type situations. But a lot of that danger can be avoided by being patient and de-escalating situations instead of the other way around. It's amazing what you can accomplish with just a smile and a calm tone of voice. People that get into LE to be able to get into fights tend to get out pretty quick.<br /> <br /> The vast majority of LE out there are incredibly patient people. Individuals that have long ago understood that "being tough" has about as much to do with being a cop as sushi wrapping techniques have to do with sports photography. Are there situations that call for the SWAT boys? You betcha. But finding someone snapping pics of the local whatnot is highly unlikely to be one of those situations. That - naturally - doesn't mean that these situations doesn't happen, they just don't happen as often as some people, nor as seldom as some other people, would have you believe.<br /> <br /> If we treat every single situation and encounter as a potential life and death situation, linked to terrorism or not, I think we'll quickly end up in a society not many of us want to live in. From an LE point of view, there's a big difference between keeping the old guard up when approaching a vehicle just pulled over for speeding and treating all such situations as a felony traffic stop. Not everything is black or white. Not in LE, not in life. Possibly only in photography, at least some photography ;-)<br /> <br /> Seriously, if we all approach opportunities to interact with other people as an opportunity to be nice, tolerant, open-minded I think we'd all be better off. Oh, and remember that real life ain't nothing like TV. When you watch COPS, remember that for every thrilling car chase they show, they've spent weeks in a cruiser being pretty much bored to death.</p>

[walter_strong5]

<p>Mikael, I wish every police officer in the country could read that.</p>

[Tim_Lookingbill]

<p>Hell I just finally now figured out "LE" stands for Law Enforcement.</p>

[walter_strong5]

<p>And LEO means?</p>

[Tim_Lookingbill]

<blockquote>

<p>And LEO means?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Law Enforcement Officer.</p>

<p>And GP stands for...General Public.</p>

[mikael_karlsson]

<p>Thanks Tim for the acronym deciphering. I shall put a post-it note on my screen that reads: "Spell stuff out!"</p>

[j_traveller]

<p>so much for the land of the free and home of the brave. Sounds like everyone's afraid and now regualr people can't even pull over on a public road to take pictures without being harassed.</p>

[craig_gillette]

<p>Here's the reality of it:</p>

<p>http://www.aclu.org/</p>

<p>They are all over it like a duck on a junebug.</p>

<p>Or one could assess the state of reality by the discussions on photography forums. If I were stopping on a road, I'd be more worried about the Toyotas.</p>

[dangoldman]

<p>did you have your hat on backwards? i have found that to be a ridiculously easy way to diffuse a situation with a rent-a-cop with an inflated ego. Obviously the hat was on backwards because the camera would knock it off otherwise, but he didnt seem to understand that.</p>

[kelly_flanigan1]

<p>Some folks just naturally get stuck with more issues with other folks and animals too; it is human nature.<br /> <br /> You insult the guards pride ; you did not even read the other person.<br /> <br /> Look at all the ingrained deep hatred; and comments on the thread towards the guard "firing, reprimands, writing letters to CEO's, situations, idiots; write a Senator; big ego".<br /> <br /> The guard would not have gone into his act if you were not there.<br /> <br /> PART of the issue is some folks *tend* to attract more problems; and subset of these folks *TEND* to poke the other guys buttons too.<br /> <br /> This goes back to the beginning of time<br /> <br /> It is sort of way with the law, broken tools; getting sick too; some folks just get into trouble and issues a thousand times more than others do; in the same situation.<br /> <br /> It is in the DNA/nature of some folks on this thread to fan the flames of a minor confrontation with a human or animal or even a tool. Any minor thing to some of us ; is to you major; thus you react and your focus is on yourself instead of the other person, animal or tool. That is why some have theses problems dealing with others; or get bit by dogs; or force or break their tools. Your actions cause the problem to worsen. You are not closing the loop on the task of defuzing a minor issue<br /> <br /> With dumb camera maybe some gizmo is abit stuck so you force it and shear off the internals; call it crap; want it fixed for free ; you complain to others.<br /> <br /> Tone on this thread seems to be you are not on the same side as the guard; you do not want to tell him your name or show an id; you are hell bent on starting a conflict; you hate the guy and want him fired or let go. It is in your makeup to purposely increase conflict.<br /> <br /> This thread is more about basic human behavior; not understanding the other party; your nature is a huge part of the conflict too. Many folks never get this; thus they feel like they are somehow singled out.<br /> <br /> This thread is the opposite of sales; it is more like lets smash the guards pride and get oneself in a big tar baby.</p>

[Jeff Lear]

<p>I'm not denying that you have some valid points, Kelly. Some people are simply contentious and seem to attract attention and strife. On the other hand, I have yet to hear you acknowledge that the guard <em>might</em> have just been a prick with an axe to grind.</p>

<p>As I have said repeatedly, we were not rude or disrespectful of the guard's imaginary authority. I let him play the role of the important, white uniformed defender of The Homeland right up to the point where he became belligerent and demanding towards my friend and I. We did <em>nothing</em> to provoke this and did everything we could to diffuse the situation. It wasn't until it became clear that the guard would not accept anything other than seeing our identification that I quietly climbed atop my 1st Amendment soap box.</p>

[Jeff Lear]

<p>Oh, and in case anyone was wondering, this is the best I managed to get before being joined by the security guard and trooper. Kind of gives you an idea of how far we were from the plant.</p>

<p><img src="http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r34/F1Addict/Miscellaneous%20Crap/IMG_0326.jpg" alt="" /><br /> Canon 5D, EF17-40 f/4L at 40mm 30 sec. at f/22, ISO 400</p>

[akgraham]

<p>You state that you are curious about how others would have handled the situation but your descriptions of the security guard, from the moment he exits the car, show why none of the many helpful strategies outlined above are likely to work for you. You ignore all these strategies because you feel aggrieved, so your next difficult encounter is likely to go equally badly.</p>

 

 

 

<p>You'll find plenty of support here - (one poster even found the request for ID somehow analogous with a racist-hate murder campaign!) - but that won't get you any closer to the refinery.</p>

[Jeff Lear]

<p>What part of my observations prevent me from being receptive to the helpful strategies?</p>