Hip shots

[btipton]

<p >Recently my wife, sister in law and I were sitting in an emergency room awaiting treatment for my sister in law when a gentleman casually sat down across from us. I noticed he had a Leica SLR of some sort and had casually placed it across his knee pointed in our general direction. I'm familiar with hip shooting, and his actions were obvious. I realized my sister in law was wearing a red coat and that is probably what drew him to us. When I would look in his direction he would move his finger away from the shutter button, shift his position and point the camera away from us. Eventually he would get the camera back on us and the finger would go to the shutter button but with my glance he would move away and shift again. This went on for awhile and I decided to just let him do his thing and tried to ignore him but it is hard to do knowing what was going on.</p>

<p >Later I mentioned what was going on to my wife and she had no idea, neither did my sister in law. I thought the whole situation was very obvious but it seems not many people are as aware of such things as I thought. I didn't obviously react to the guy because I can appreciate what he was up to but it is a bit disconcerting to be on the receiving end of hip shots, especially while sitting in an emergency room. I considered going over to introduce myself and ask about his camera, I use an M6, but the gentleman got up and wondered away looking for other opportunities and I let it go. </p>

<p >Has anyone been in this situation and how did you feel about it? <br>

 

<p >I've done hip shooting and I've also been very obvious in my intentions with a camera and I can definitely say I'm more comfortable when I'm obvious. I have had a couple confrontations but that's part of the process and nothing really bad has happened yet.</p>

</p>

[leslie_cheung]

<p>Seems like a beginner to me...I can't imagine myself taking that long to get a "hip shot." It's hard, next time maybe give him an obvious "pose" to let him/her know:) Sneaking around that obviously is rather childish in my book but I was once there long long ago.</p>

<p>Thanks heaven for live-view!! I just pretend I'm in video mode these days with the cam pointing at any and everything:)</p>

[jean_yves_mead]

<p>I've had that, I've had photographers in the street hastily stuffing their camera into their bag as I turned round, or scoot past, frantically looking in every direction except mine; I've seen one poor fellow almost give himself whiplash training his camera away from me as I looked up...</p>

<p>I don't think I'm imagining things. I carry a camera with me wherever I go and have an unhealthy interest in what people are doing around me and with what gear they're doing it, so I'm good at spotting other cameras nearby and which way they're pointing. I like to use slightly unusual cameras when out and about in London (a Linhof Technika 70 is an extreme example, but I'll usually have an M3 around my neck or a Rolleiflex SLX over my shoulder) so it's not uncommon for snappers to photograph me while I'm giving the gear an airing, and I have no problem with that. I'm also good at recognising all the little ways in which photographers try to hide what they're doing, because I used to do them myself.</p>

<p>Usually I pity them for being such cowards (as I once was). Occasionally (and, I'm a little ashamed to admit, with just the slightest desire to increase their embarrassment) I suggest to them that they might draw less attention to themselves if they were not so furtive in their behaviour. It took me a long time - and a switch to ridiculously obvious medium-format cameras - to realise this, so it would be rude of me not to share the fruits of my experience, no?</p>

[marc_rochkind]

The principle I use for my own shots, some of which are hip shots, is that I never shoot when the subject has a reasonable expectation of privacy.

 

In my view, this wouldn't be the case in an ER where someone is forced to go. Lots of things go on in ER waiting rooms that people would prefer be in private, but can't be. So, this photography was over the line. If you were so inclined, and it sounds as if you were not, you could have asked the photographer to stop.

 

In other waiting rooms, such as a train station, such a shot would be perfectly OK.

 

--Marc

[btipton]

<p >Looking back on the situation it would have been far better if the gentleman had adhered to the old "shoot and scoot" philosophy. He was very determined to get the shot, I'd say he was there for roughly 20 minutes trying to get it.</p>

<p > </p>

[spanky]

<p>I agree that an emergency room is one place where I wouldn't shoot. Maybe he was also waiting for someone to get treated and was just passing the time but who knows. He also sounds like he's new to candid photography.<br>

As hip shots go, sometimes a photographer feels it's the best way to compose a shot. I've been shooting on the subway, Union Station in downtown LA , and on Santa Monica's 3rd St. promenade for years using my RZ67 cradled in my lap. The ergonomics of this camera is such that it's supposed to be shot low. Given the distance to people across from me and my choice of wide or standard lens, I get tightly framed shots that are more portrait in nature then what most of us my think of when considering street photography. I happen to like the way my shots come out with this method. I'm always asked if people are aware I'm taking their picture. I always answerer "If they are, they don't say anything".</p><div></div>

[spanky]

<p> </p><div></div>

[jophilippe]

<p>What I don't like with hipshot is that when you come up with a good image you feel little responsible for it...</p>

<p>Having said that :</p>

<blockquote>

<p>As hip shots go, sometimes a photographer feels it's the best way to compose a shot</p>

</blockquote>

<p>indeed sometimes hipshots may provide a PoV that is physically difficult or impossible to achieve, e.g. when you need higher or lower vantage point. Also there are some photographers who managed to develop and specialize in the technique, not necessarily in the purpose of being hidden but because it works for them (there is a vid about Joe Wigfall on youtube and also Walker Evans did that in the subway).</p>

<p>I do very few hipshots myself, I prefer to be obvious and feel more comfortable and relax this way.</p>

[spanky]

<p>I forgot to mention also that the fact that your wife and sister in law were unaware is not surprising. Being a photographer of this sort is what allowed you to pick up on this mans vibes. Most people really aren't present. Their minds are either in the future or in the past and as such they miss out on the present. I'm sure it was a stressful situation for your wife and sister in law in the emergency room so a cannon could have been shot off and they may not have noticed. I'm exaggerating of course but you get my point. How many times have you eaten lunch or driven someplace only to find out shortly later that you cannot recall many details? This is human nature and we all do it. This is why SP can be so difficult. We have to get ourselves off auto pilot and forget the things on our minds and pay attention to our surroundings to look for interesting shots. There are always shots waiting to be taken in our surroundings, we just have to select which ones. It's like imposing order on chaos.<br>

This is also why I think beginners need not worry to much if someone catches them taken a picture in the street. Most people don't notice and/or don't care. My father is in town visiting and we went to Santa Monica Pier yesterday. I blazed through five 36 exposure rolls with my Nikon F2. Nobody said anything to me no matter how close up to them I got. They were too busy having a great time. I was too taking pictures and hanging out with Dad. When everyone does what they do, it's a beautiful world.</p>

[btipton]

<p >I find it’s interesting how people react to being photographed. I was contracted to photograph a class on self defense as the class progressed, they wanted candid shots of the action. I set up studio strobes along two walls of the room, which I triggered with an on camera flash, so I could move around and shoot freely as the class progressed. Everyone involved, including students, knew what was going on and had signed releases. As the shoot progressed I began noticing some students would watch me and try to be in the shot when I would move for a good angle while others would watch and try to avoid being in the shot. All participants were adults and it was a mix of gender. There were no obvious indicators in the persons as to who would want to be photographed and who didn’t. Surely there have been studies on such things.</p>

<p >In the ER I didn’t mind the guy wanting to make photos, but my wife and sister in law weren’t too pleased when I told them what happened. It was the apparent “sneakiness” of the photographer that made things uncomfortable for me. I guess he would have been more successful if I hadn’t picked up on it as it seems I’m the only one who knew. </p>

<p >Marc if you sat down across from me with that RZ, your intentions would be obvious and the “sneakiness” factor would be long gone. It’s the whole “here I am and it’s okay to be here doing this” thing and most people have an appreciation for that. Attitude has a lot to do with it. </p>

<p >By the way Marc, I really like your work.</p>

[Brad_]

<p>>>> What I don't like with hipshot is that when you come up with a good image you feel little responsible for it...<br>

 <br>

I totally agree, and further feel you're cheating your subject and yourself by not taking the time to frame towards a much better considered composition. Hip-shot pix invariably look the same and tedious.<br>

 <br>

>>>  I do very few hipshots myself, I prefer to be obvious and feel more comfortable and relax this way.<br>

 <br>

Same here. On the street, I want people to know they're being photographed - either before, during, or after the shot.</p>

[luis_g]

<p> The ER is no place to sneak in a few hipshots. People there should have some expectation of privacy. I would have pointed to the camera and made a "no" gesture with my fingers, and if he persisted, I'd sick security on him. Besides, the mirror slap should have been clearly audible. </p>

<p> I do not mind other photographers sneaking shots of me, even when I'm aware of it.</p>

[leslie_cheung]

<p>I don't feel one way or another. You don't have to hide and sneak around all the time nor do you have to let 100% of the subjects know you are shooting them before, during or after. It is tedious to have only one rule, mindset for all situations in different places at different times. Chatting it up with a few subjects here and there are fine but if you have to<strong><em> initial and do it every single time...</em>I rather stop shooting.</strong></p>

<p><strong><em>I shoot because I am not very fond about talking in the first place. It is one thing not to hide and sneak but another thing to engage <strong>each and every subject.</strong></em></strong></p>

<p>Hi Brad, Happy New Year!</p>

<p><strong><em> </em></strong> </p>

[ray .]

Sweeping statements against hip shooting technique is like saying because some oranges are rotten then all oranges aren't

good. Or if you don't like oranges therefore they are not good.

[spanky]

<p>Thanks for the compliment B. Tipton.<br>

Here's a true story I'll never forget. Two weeks ago I was in South Central LA standing at an intersection waiting for the walk sign. About 50 feet from me in a lane that had a red light was a white car. Inside the car was a young woman who was looking into her sun visor mirror while applying makeup. I thought about heading over to take a quick shot, but something made me pass. I went back to looking in other directions for shots while waiting for the walk signal. All of a sudden, for some unknown reason, I felt compelled to look back at the white car. The young woman was now sticking her head out the open window while pointing a point-n-shoot camera right at me! So what did I do? I raised my camera (my F2) and took a shot of her shooting me. "Gotcha first" I yelled out to her and we both laughed as her light turned green and she drove past me. I'll post the picture here whenever I can get back into a darkroom to make prints again. I just mention it here to show that I guess those of us who shoot street a lot just develop a 6th sense of sorts. It's all part of the fun.</p>

[tonmestrom]

<p>Shooting from the hip has got some pretty serious limitations and for the most part amounts to nothing. I've seen some good ones but they are pretty few and far between. Apart from that it's a style I don't particularly like either.</p>

<p>As for shooting in an ER waiting room, there are some lines you don't cross. I've worked in an ER. Would I have found someone shooting there I would have thrown him out pronto. I'm glad you all seem to agree on that.</p>

[ray .]

<a href=" title="Untitled by Chaospress, on Flickr"><img

src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3063/2705390251_805c1b92ac_o.jpg"alt="" /></a>

[philipward]

<p>The idea of shooting in the ER gives me an uneasy feeling.It got me thinking about what other "public" areas would I hesitate to shoot candids.The only place that came to mind was a church,which is funny since I have shot many weddings, but nothing I would post on this forum.</p>

[spanky]

<p>You wouldn't shoot in a church Philip? I would and even tried once. Another true story here. A few years ago I started seeing a young lady who was a very hard core Christian. Early on in our relationship she invited me to attend a service with her. The only catch was that it was a Spanish speaking church (she's Salvadorian, speaks fluent English, but prefers going to Spanish speaking churches). I however, do not speak Spanish unless you want to count some very un-Christian kinds of words. I told her I'd go only if they had food there and if they allowed me to take a some pictures in there. I mean, what else could I do since I wouldn't understand the sermon? She said this would be no problem. Needless, to say when we got to the church, there was no food out and I was told no picture taking. So I had to sit through a two and a half hour sermon like a lump on a log. A various times everyone got up to sing and this is where I really wished I could have taken a few pictures. The people around us were so passionate in their singing and their faith that I couldn't help but be moved by it all.</p>

[Brad_]

If there's an interesting photo possibility unfolding in front of you, why not just slow down, bring the camera to your eye,

take the shot, and snag a much better photograph - rather than an almost?

[tonmestrom]

<p>good question. Nice to see you posting here again.</p>

<p>As far as shooting in churches is concerned for me it very much depends on the circumstances. This one I shot in <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89glise_Saint-Sulpice,_Paris">Saint Sulpice</a> in Paris a few years ago. Lucked out because when I walked in it was bright and sunny outside so I had my ISO setting on 100, saw this and only had time to raise my camera for the one shot</p><div></div>

[btipton]

<p >Speaking of shooting in churches, years ago I walked into St. Patrick’s Cathedral with my M6 hanging around my neck (no flash attached). A guy standing near me was blasting away with his point and shoot, built in flash popping as fast as it could. A member of the church staff walked over to me and asked me, very politely, to please wait until the service completed to take more photos. I looked around for the point and shoot guy but he had disappeared into the crowd so I just said okay to the staff member and I moved on. The staff member was very polite and with the crowd moving through he had his hands full so I figured it’d be better to go with the flow at the moment and besides we were all being cordial to one another (except maybe the point and shoot guy, who I wish had been doing hip shots at the time).</p>

[ray .]

People shoot with all kinds of different methods. I don't care if someone stands on their head with the camera balanced on

their foot. It's the photograph that counts. Eye in viewfinder leads to boring, too controlled shots. Just as valid a

statement as saying hip shots are poor technique.

 

Point and shoot cameras are inherently hip shooting cameras. You point the box at what you want to shoot. Viewfinders are a tool, to be used or not used depending on the situation.

[ray .]

"If there's an interesting photo possibility unfolding in front of you, why not just slow down, bring the camera to your eye,

take the shot, and snag a much better photograph - rather than an almost?"

 

Because in some situations slowing down and bringing the camera to eye spoils or misses the shot. It's as

straight forward and logical a concept as making the decision to take a longer step to step over a puddle.

[spanky]

<p>Since I don't pre-focus, I have no choice but to bring my Nikon to my eye every time before I take a picture. As I described above I don't seem to run into problems doing this in crowded places (knocks on wood). I also agree with Ray that a shot from a lower angle may offer a unorthodox result that may have more impact. There's a picture in "The Americans" taken in a bar in Gallup New Mexico that Frank took with his camera hidden in his jacket. The contact sheet from this roll shows many pictures with fuzzy focus and lopsided composition but given the enviorment it works better imo then had Frank brought his camera to his eye for the shot.</p>