Rangefinder - the switching.

[pbless]

<p>This is the first question i post here, so i'll try to be as specific as possible.<br /> The thing is i REALLY like shooting with rangefinders. I have an old FED 5 (russian copy of leica) and it is mostly uncomfortable, the viewfinder is small, but i still love it because it gives me a different perspective and is both easy to carry and quiet :) <br /> So my problem is, i do load of street, and hopefully i am getting better at it. My current equipment is 400d and sigma 30mm 1.4 (terrific combo, love everything about it accept the LOUD shutter of 400d) but the more i use FED the more i like the RF way of shooting (simply because of the easy manual focus). I am looking at Voiglander Bessa R3A/R2A. I would better invest the extra money on lenses so don't offer me leicas of zeiss ikon. But now comes the real deal: FILM. If i want to do some serious shooting first of all i need film second of all i need a scanner because paying 6 quid(i'm in UK) every time i finish my 36 frames is just well nonsence. So i will need a scanner and as i understand good ones are quite expensive...<br /> So has anyone done the full switch to RF from SLR's ??? Would i be able to keep it under 1000? <br /> Cheers,<br /> Paulius</p>

[michael_a._shapiro]

<p>Only real question is whether you can do this for under $1000. Probably not. Scanners are in the $1500 and up range.<br>

If you want to go with a scanner, that means digital. Why not just go digital? Lots of digital rangefinders around, and while they are relatively expensive, you can deduct the scanner price and the cost of film and processing.<br>

As for which lenses, if that was actually a question, I would subscribe to Reid Reviews and choose your cv lens carefully.</p>

[alvin_lim5]

<p>Not sure about the pricing in UK, but in Singapore, if you are looking at a brand new set of Bessa R2A/R3A and a lens (assuming you are a 35mm/40mm f1.4 person) £1000 would be possible.</p>

<p>It would also depend on the kind of scanner you are looking at. For the more budget conscious, a flat bed scanner would be a better choice. I am using a Canon flat bed scanner and while it does not match up to dedicated scanners, it does the job fine for me.</p>

[andylynn]

<p>Wait a minute, you can easily get a scanner for way less than $1500. I got my used Minolta Dual III for $80, added $40 for a copy of Vuescan and it works very well. Compare that, along with as much film as I can possibly shoot, to the cost of a digital rangefinder and, well, it's not much of a comparison.</p>

<p>I think a Voigtlander and a decent used scanner could get you good results. What are you looking for in the way of film? B&W, color, slow, fast, etc?</p>

[pbless]

<p>Oh email notification betrayed me :D <br>

Thanks for the quick response! <br>

Michael: Leica M8 is 1400 pounds on ebay + a decent lens will be around 2000...but taking in account the price of a good scanner, even a used one, this is a nice solution. I might just wait and see if the will go down more. But i read a lot of bad thing about M8 and i am really not sure if it is worth the money...<br>

I'm more like a B&W street guy, but now (since i am digital) i do both and in various conditions. Now i am using Kodak iso 200 film (the cheapest one - still getting used to film) - and it suits me well for sunny/ overcast days.<br>

Alvin: yeah, bessa with lens is easy to get, but that scanner <-- you can have the best lens in the world but if scanner is rubbish, the digital files will be rubbish.... <br>

Here you cans see what i'm doing with my current combo: (can i post this? Don't really know the forum rules...) <br>

Cheers,<br>

Paulius</p>

[starvy]

<p>hi paulius,<br>

quality is all about subjectivity when it comes to amateur photography. like you i too love rangefinders. my rig is rather basic. a bessa r with one cv lens, one old leitz and two russian zeiss copies. i am shooting a lot less film these days but still love carrying this more than my sony dslr. don't be afraid to experiment with cheaper equipment. an epson 4490 scanner could be had for just over hundred quids. as for film, allow me to plug the following sites - www.mx2.co.uk and www.7dayshop.co.uk often have close to expired or even expired films available cheaply. shoot well but shoot little, that is my motto when exposing film!</p>

[morgan_malaska]

<p>I got my Nikon Coolscan IV ED for something like 100£, quite honestly it does everything I need it to do and more (I need it to do B&W, but it did very well with archiving my fathers old library of Kodachrome as well) - The only downside is that the Nikon Coolscan Software does not seem to work on 64bit systems, an interim solution for me has been Vuescan, but I just can't get used to it. Hoping to make the transition to OS-X soon, I hear the Nikon software works even under Snow Leopard.</p>

<p>My switch from D200 to a Leica M4-P and a 35mm Summicron cost me about 1200£ - If you are aiming for Bessas and a Voigtlander lens you might well land UNDER 1000 quid with some patience.<br>

Good luck with your transition, if you are anything like me it will be the best thing that has ever happened to your photography - With a rangefinder, street photography is another beast entirely for me, it's become a lot more about interacting with the scenes or the people I am photographing rather than simply creating a photograph... And that, in the end, makes for better photographs.</p>

[steve_bellayr]

<p>Under 1k if you don't want new or a meter: 1. Canon P w/50mm f1.4 Serenar (hood is difficult to find) (It is Leica screw mount & will take cv lenses) 2. Nikon S2 w/50mm f1.4 (Sonnar like lens again hood is hard to find) & 3. Leica IIIF red dial (will take CV lenses. cheaper if you don't want the self timer). All can be sold easily when you want to move up. </p>

[Troll]

<p>Stick with your digital.</p>

[john_shriver]

<p>Coolscan IV's are up to $700 on eBay now. The discontinuance of all but the Coolscan 9000 (which is probably just remaining inventory clearing the channel) is driving up the prices of used ones.</p>

 

[carbon_dragon]

<p>What I did is buy an M8 used. I also have a Nikon Coolscan V ED for scanning film that I like a lot. Ok, but now your question. Suppose you want to stay cheap and get the rangefinder experience. I love the Leica CL but finding batteries is a problem. The older Leica M2s and M3's cannot be beat for just the best, most durable rangefinder there is and a decent value to boot along with older 50's leica lenses or Voigtlander lenses. The Canon 7 is a great user rangefinder and uses leica screw lenses, so Voigtlanders work there too. </p>

<p>That said, the M8 still costs too much even used, the image quality is pretty darned good and I'm getting a lot of fun going around with an very dark red IR filter on the front shooting IR pictures.</p>

[pbless]

<p>Thank you all for responses. Never thought about those cheap scanners! (well i am kinda new concerning them, have to do a bit more research before switching).<br>

Cheers,<br>

Paulius</p>

[HarryBaker]

<p>I have an M8, Canon dSLRs (5D and 350D) and M6. I use the M8 for street stuff and though many wax lyrical about image quality I've never really felt comfortable with my image quality. However, I'm prepared to admit that it's probably my lack of post-processing skills. I bought it early on when they were being recalled for modification. I'm not sure that the price difference between the M8 and, say, a 5D is clearly reflected in image quality. I love using the M6 and I scan using an old Minolta Elite 5400 and Vuescan. The scanner works well. But I don't use the M6 much because colour processing is so hit and miss in the UK...or expensive. If you want an RF perhaps you should consider a used Epson R-D1/R-Ds. I think these have been pretty good. As far as shutter noise is concerned, the M8 is pretty clunky (not at all like the M6) and sounds, to my uncalibrated ear, noisier than the Canon 350D. Bessas are good as are CV lenses. Also look out for Hexanon-M lenses. I'd be interested to know where you get your colour films processed in the UK. If you are interested some of my street pictures taken with a variety of Leicas or SLRs can be seen here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/harrybaker/</p>

[carbon_dragon]

<p>I agree that the M8 and the 5D (both of which I use) quality isn't represented by their prices, but the M8 turns out great work, and the IR Black and White is a bonus. The 5D is a much better deal from a quality per dollar perspective, but the M8 is a lot smaller, lighter, and less bulky and that matters to me. Also, the M8 shutter isn't that bad and they added a quiet (discreet) mode if it matters to you. You just have to update the firmware. The M8 is still a Leica M and if you want a rangefinder, it's a great one. That said, if you can take the weight, the 5D is a great camera too.</p>

<p>I've had 2 Voigtlander lenses and one is great and one was not so good. So do your homework and read some reviews but you should do fine. In general they're great lenses at great prices. Just don't expect leica quality control, after all you're not paying for it.</p>

[morgan_malaska]

<p>Really, to me... If you are going to rely on others doing the processing for you you might aswell stay with digital - Developing your own B&W is painfully simple and it is indeed a huge part of what makes shooting film such a fun endeavour. If you lack a space to do it in (kitchen sink does just fine with some precautions) then seek out your local photography club - That will give you both relatively cheap darkroom access (in Sweden the going rate for membership with darkroom access is something like 30£ a year) and a font of information from the members that were around when there was no choice between film and digital.</p>

<p>Oh yes, how did the M8 ever come up in a thread for buying a rangefinder kit under a thousand pounds? </p>

 

[carbon_dragon]

<p>Not sure. Even a good price on an M8 used is about 1280 pounds according to Google's dollars to pounds converter. But that really is the cheapest way to get a good digital rangefinder. for a cheap film rangefinder, I suggested something like a Leica M2 or M3 and maybe some Voigtlander lenses. I've tried a lot of rangefinders (not a Bessa though) and the Leicas are solid and very pleasant to use, especially with the addition of a Voigtlander clip on light meter.</p>

<p>Wow I just looked for film scanners on B&H and Amazon. It looks like that is likely to be the hard part of that equation. Looks like Nikon is out of the business. I guess that is not surprising.</p>

[steve_larese1]

<p>I love my M6s, Voigtlander R2 and Konica Hexar AF, Fuji Acros and developing at home, then scanning with a Nikon Coolscan 9000. I also still shoot Fuji RDPIII (lucky enough to have a local lab). Lately, I've been ordering Kodak Ektar 100, having CostCo develop it for $1.50, and scanning. I get 19x13 at 300 dpi from 35mm. I thought this would go by the wayside of digital, but I love the rangefinder system and find that I get shots I wouldn't get otherwise. I can take the Voigtlander to places I'd never risk a $7,000 M9. <br></p><p>I also shoot a Nikon D700 (I'm no digital hater, love it), which for me is the first digital camera worth using. (I also have a D2x, fine camera, but hate the crop.) If they could put the D700 chip in a rangefinder body, I'd be done.</p><p>For $1,000, you can do quite well with a rangefinder system. If you find a Summicron-C 40mm, buy it.</p><p>Short of a film rangefinder, several companies are coming out with 4/3 cameras at PMA in a few days. I hope some have optical viewfinders.<br></p><p><br></p><p><br></p>

[morgan_malaska]

<p>Sorry David, I just read my reply and it came off as a bit short - All apologies! I agree with you on the M2's and M3's very much, they can be found in user or "beater" condition for quite reasonable prices - Often they require changing of the vulcanite covering however, a relatively inexpensive renovation effort that can be done at home. I see "beater" M2's for around 2-300 pounds here in Sweden at times.</p>

<p>Overall though, LTM lenses and cameras will give you the most bang for your sterling - I would look for a Leica IIIf red dial or similar - That will leave you some room for a pair of good used CV lenses and indeed a scanner... Bear in mind, you don't need to buy all this at once, I photographed with my M4-P for three months before I purchased my scanner and started developing the films I had went through. </p>

<p>As for scanners, used is the ONLY way to go - Scour photography communities, post ads, look on less traditional places to sell photography equipment... Seek, and you shall find what you need. Ebay prices are often needlessly hyped up, that said, you might find a great deal on there as well. </p>

[pbless]

<p>Morgan: The thing is, that i am a student now and i wont be able to get a darkroom or use kitchen for developing film.<br>

This is also one of the reason why my minds is saying to just upgrade my 400d to full frame 5d2(this would happen later in the year if i choose). And also I am thinking will i be able to put up with manual focus only all the time...Even though it is a piece of cake on RF camera and doesn't take long.<br>

Argh... decisions decisions...Probably the best thing now to me is shoot more and do more research about the prices, developing and cost and see which one is actually better. <br>

Thank you all for responses,<br>

Cheers,<br>

Paulius</p>

[pbless]

<p>Morgan: The thing is, that i am a student now and i wont be able to get a darkroom or use kitchen for developing film.<br>

This is also one of the reason why my minds is saying to just upgrade my 400d to full frame 5d2(this would happen later in the year if i choose). And also I am thinking will i be able to put up with manual focus only all the time...Even though it is a piece of cake on RF camera and doesn't take long.<br>

Argh... decisions decisions...Probably the best thing now to me is shoot more and do more research about the prices, developing and cost and see which one is actually better. <br>

Thank you all for responses,<br>

Cheers,<br>

Paulius</p>

[morgan_malaska]

<p>If you are a student look in to the resources of your university and or photography clubs associated with it - For instance I found that Oxford University Photography Society offers dark room use for free together with their membership (£30 for a year, £15 for a single term) and that includes <strong>free</strong> chemicals. The Cambridge University Photography society was a bit harder to get information on, but I imagine that too has a similar set up.</p>

<p>I was in the same seat as you a year back - My decision was between a D700 and some iteration of a Leica M... My (irriational) urge for a Leica won out, and here I am a year later and couldn't be happier with the decision to go analogue. I too was a student at the time (and will be again come autumn) and the decision what to do with my saved money was a hard one. And no one can make the right decision but you.<br>

My advise, gear aside, and gear doesn't <strong>really</strong> matter in the end is that you continue to shoot for a while with your setup unchanged. Try to use your FED exclusively for a month or so and then do the same with the 400D - With the FED, my advise is to carry it with you as often as you can, every day - That really is one of the hugest pluses with RF kit... It is portable where a 5DMK2 (or similar) isn't. <br>

Once again, good luck with your decision - Take your time, and stay cool, that urge to make a change is not always right. Having the patience to slug it out and sticking with what you have is often times very rewarding, at least when it comes to photography gear. </p>

[starvy]

<p>paulius,<br>

how do you rate your technical ability as a photographer? i am wondering if it is worth your while staying with your existing setup and learning to use them to the best of their capability? are you buying new equipment because it is needed to improve your photography? i think what you have now seems to be an interesting setup already.</p>

[pbless]

<p>Starvy - since i got this lens I saw an amazing improvement in my photography, but i am always lacking that "stealth", even though the lens focuses almost without any sound but that shutter...<br>

I am not the kind of person that buys just to buy if you are wondering that. But i must also think about the future, i already have almost 23k frames on my rebel (thats in 1.5 years) and I am using it up to its limit in not very favorable conditions, so it will give up eventually...<br>

My technical ability...well I do not do loads of PP, i don't like it. Mostly - converting to B&W, that's it. But considering taking the picture itself it gets kinda tricky. I am still staying with this setup for the coming months and probably will not buy anything if i wont see a greater improvement in my own photography and if i see that studies are (i am studying totally unrelated subject) suffering. <br>

Still thanks, I'm giving quite a lot of thought to this subject and all the responses were very helpful.<br>

Cheers,<br>

Paulius</p>

[Karim Ghantous]

<p>IMHO stay away from the old screw mount Leicas. I love them but you have to be very keen to bother.</p>

<p>I am certain that you can get a Bessa of some kind and two lenses for under UK1,000.</p>

[dayton_p._strickland1]

<p>I used a CanoScan F2720U for years before an upgrade to iMac OSX made it obsolete. I purchased a Epson Perfection V500 Photo flatbed and film scanner at Staples for just over $200 American and it works great, especially on black and white and even Kodachrome which the Canon couldn't handle very well. I would try the Epson for the price and if you buy it from a dealer that gives you a 14-day satisfaction guarantee, like Staples, you can't loose.</p>