Travel images required for website in return for publicity and links

[matroskin]

<p>Jamie, you seem to forget #4. Give your photos away for free.</p>

<p>where did Tanya go with that website of hers?</p>

[hughes]

<p>gentlemen and ladies,<br>

the correct response might be thanks but no thanks but the ridiculous paranoid replies are uncalled for. It was a polite request and deserved an equally polite answer, I am sorry about the state of the photographic industry but guys the world does not owe you a living. I for one would prefer to give this lady a free shot than sell it for the insulting amounts that some stock agencies pay .</p>

[jamie_robertson2]

<blockquote>

<p>1. Exceptionally good does not matter. Only cost matters. Just look at the $30 stock photo cover of Time Magazine. The photog might have been able to buy lunch at Wendy's. (Woohoo!)<br />2. Weddings are done for free too.<br />3. Probably good advice. Thank you.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>1. If you truly believe your photo is EXCEPTIONAL then you are a fool if you sell it for $30. By exceptional I mean something that has never been seen before or something done so well that it has never been equalled, something so different that it would make an average person stop in the street to look at it.</p>

<p>2. Free wedding photos? Sure, by keen amateurs, ex-pros and friends but if you know of any pros that take REALLY GOOD wedding photos for free then please let me know.</p>

<p>3. You're most welcome ;-)</p>

 

 

<blockquote>

<p>Jamie, you seem to forget #4. Give your photos away for free.<br>

where did Tanya go with that website of hers?</p>

 

</blockquote>

<p>I can't see how giving your photos away for free would make you good money like the other 3 suggestions.</p>

 

[tom_harvey3]

<p>I'm wondering who the **** sent her to look for a sucker at photo.net? She's been a member since yesterday...</p>

[sarah_fox]

<p>"the world does not owe you a living"</p>

<p>And there's an interesting concept about which many people disagree. I do happen to believe the arts should be supported. That includes buying paintings, sculptures, photographs, etc. This is how people with talent and creativity (not necessarily including myself in this category) are able to carve out meager livings, so that they can have the freedom to create the things they do that benefit society. I might be biased in this regard. I come from a family of artists.</p>

<p>I also believe we owe something to people who fall upon hard times. For instance I donated several year proceeds from artwork sales to the earthquake victims in Haiti. (Yes, literally several years. I assure you it wasn't much money, but it's all I felt I could afford.) It's not because I OWE them anything. I OWE them nothing. It's because it's the right thing to do. They are worse off than I am, and so I help.</p>

<p>Make no mistake: I am asking nothing of Tanya. I accept that she isn't going to pay one red cent for photography. I'm asking for something from my fellow photographers, both amateur and pro: Don't kill the profession. We photographers might be evolutionary zeros -- misfits that should go extinct. However, the consequence of our extinction is that there will no longer be people who devote all of their energies to the artform and invest in equipment far beyond what most people can afford, in order to produce something truly excellent. With the loss of the profession will come the loss of excellence. The new standard will be "pretty good" or even "good enough." And we will have all lost something.</p>

[jon_poploskie]

<p>Helllo,<br />Normally I just lurk here and enjoy looking at the pictures and try to learn a little something about photography. But unfortunately getting sucked into this vitriolic thread has compelled me to comment.<br />Many of you seem to think that legitimate businesses don't barter for things all the time. If you don't find what she was offering in the barter as valuable/useful, don't take her up on it.<br /><br />The bitterness of the responses seems to indicate frustration with the fact that your industry is becoming more competitive. Whether you (and I mean 'you' in a general sense, and beyond photographers as well) like it or not, products and services often become commodities. Do you think micro-stock sites would exist if there weren't tons of people capable of populating those sites with the millions of photos they stock? Certain aspects of photography (obviously not all) clearly ARE a commodity, whether you like it or not. A commodity doesn't mean there is NO value to something, maybe just less than if it weren't so easily available. I live in the Detroit, MI area and have watched as many our local jobs and our local economy (automotive) have been commoditized and shipped out of the area. Do you think those people like their skills being reduced down to machines that can replace them, or cheap foreign labor? Probably not. But people are trying to find ways to make themselves more valuable, or they're finding something else to do. These things happen all the time, and unpleasant (or even devastating) though it may be, people try to adjust.<br>

So differentiate yourself so YOU are NOT a commodity, or find something new to do. But don't be so belligerent to a perfectly reasonable barter request just because it doesn't work for you.<br />Best Regards.</p>

[sarah_fox]

<p>Jon, I support your beseiged economy in Michigan. We recently even bought a Dodge truck. Why? Your workers need the business, and we needed a new truck. Hint: It wasn't a Toyota. Should we have bought the Toyota instead? I figured with all the layoffs and foreclosures in Michigan, y'all would have appreciated the work. I personally see nothing wrong with helping out those in need if I'm able.</p>

<p>If you read vitriol into my comments, you are not reading them with the spirit they are intended. I'm not addressing people in anger, so much as pleading with people not to shoot at endangered species. (Every free photo is a bullet.)</p>

[sarah_fox]

<p>... and the last word is yours for the taking, gentlemen. Good evening! ;-)</p>

[richard__]

<p>Well the real problem is that she doesn't really have anything to offer for this 'free' usage.</p>

<p>There are much better internet sites to post one's pictures on if a photographer is looking for exposure and acclaim. And even possibly some sales. I rather doubt that any single stop on the web will do as much for anyone as just using Flickr for instance.</p>

<p>However, one should acknowledge and thank her politely for being nice enough to actually make this offer. I have found many of my images being used surreptitiously on numerous 'travel' web sites without ever being asked. In fact it's driving me closer to removing them completely when the sites refuse to remove them.</p>

<p>At least she asked, so that everyone then has the opportunity to nicely turn her down as they should. If she actually wishes to bargain with a commodity worth more than nothing, then there could be some actual room for a discussion. But otherwise it's like whistling in the wind. It's not going to get very far.</p>

[jamie_robertson2]

<p>Good grief, the same thing happens in all walks of life.<br>

Bus drivers complaining in the 1930s because more people had cars and weren't travelling by bus, cinemas whingeing because people had TVs and VCRs, newspapers moaning because we all read the news online, cork manufacturers bitching because of screw cap bottles and the list goes on forever...</p>

<p>Wake up, move on, adapt. If you stand still and do nothing you shouldn't have the cheek to complain. We live in a free world, literally these days. Most things are centred around getting things for nothing. Just look at how Google endlessly morphs and adapts to the changing business climate by giving things away for "free" but making billions in the background with their clever advertising strategy. Would Google be as huge if they charged 10 cents per search?</p>

[iwao_sakurai]

<p>What's to be expected in this digital copy/paste age? To be successful you need to be highly original, creative have superb technique towards your photography.<br>

Even then general standards have plunged due to the millions and millions of amateur images floating everywhere. How can one expect to make tons a cash being a photographer??</p>

<p>I think good riddance to all the procrastinators lets support all the innovators out there. The ones that doesn't say "film is dead", that doesn't follow industry rules, that use other alternative processes, a variety of cameras (from view camera to pinhole to a basic scanner) mixed with digital techniques (digital negatives) outputs on things other than paper. And lets particularly support the people that like to build things!</p>

[richard_john_edwards]

<p>To all those people who are will to give their images away for some recognition, I say Shame on you. You are doing a disservice to the people who rely on the sales of these images to make a living, you are cheapening the art of photography and potentially doing someone out of a job. If it were a charity i would not mind.<br>

Ask yourself these questions based on your own proffesion ie Lawyer, Electrician, check out opperator, if your job was taken away from you because someone requested the services you provide to be provided for free in return for your mname being mentioned, how would you feel? It is Shamefull that a buisness has so little regard for the values of photography, especially the tourism industry, it is the images that entice a person to travel to a location, just look at all the brouchers, posters, TV advertising, this is huge buisness and a large portion of photographers work.<br>

Shame on you Tanya, as per previous responces, if you are ghoing to start a buisness, set it up propperly and budget accordingly.<br>

By the way i need some new camera gear, Nikon Please give me a new Camera and some lenses, I will mention your name in my web site. Get the point!!</p>

[hugh_j.]

<p>How many of you "professionals" would still be photographers if it wasn't your job? OK, now how many plumbers do you think clear clogged toilets on their free time just because they love to do it?</p>

<p>That's the problem with photography. Stop crying about it and get over it.</p>

[anthony_murray]

<p>Seems to me that many of the people objecting here are pro photographers who are not getting much sympathy from amateurs. Well, here is an amateur who will lend some support and also object to the OPs request. Expecting free images to support a commercial enterprise is just wrong in my opinion. It's like asking the photography community for free capital to start a business. If an amateur like me is donating the images, then a mention of my name on the OPs website is of no value other than artistic recognition, so the idea that this is a fair 'barter' is ridiculous. 'Barter' means exchanging something of value for something else of equal value. <br>

There's a reason why a model release is required when a photo is to be used for commercial purposes. It's called exploitation. <br>

So to all those struggling pros out there, good luck in this tough market. I won't be trying to put you out of business. </p>

[Spearhead]

<blockquote>

<p>ou are doing a disservice to the people who rely on the sales of these images to make a living, you are cheapening the art of photography and potentially doing someone out of a job.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>It's not anyone's responsibility to take care of other photographers. If they can't find a way to stay in business, so be it. Nobody is doing a disservice, they're doing something that makes them happy.</p>

[Spearhead]

<p>FWIW, my business has really dried up in the last six months. Why? Well ubiquitous broadband means everyone can get video instead of settling for still pix. Should I be out here berating video guys? And the magazines are getting slimmer and slimmer. I lost a plum monthly assignment because the magazine shrunk so much they killed the feature. Why is the magazine getting slimmer? Because none of the self-righteous "take care of me" photographers are buying enough magazines. Everyone that complained here about the impact on photography - instead of complaining, go to your local newsstand and buy ten copies of every issue that features sports and news photography and don't look at sports or news on the web any more. That's an order, because you are really destroying the livelihood of people that depend on photography. And DON'T EVER WATCH VIDEO ON THE WEB.<br>

<br /> There. I've saved photography.</p>

[richard_john_edwards]

<p>Having reviwed some more posts here i would like to strees my view again in a different way that may put context to it. I have studdied Photography (sacrificed working years and income to do so) opted not to take it up proffesionally as i could earn a better living in my current employ, so i still get to enjoy photography as an amature although people do buy my work i am not a "proffesional per se.<br /> I will give some images freely to people if i choose, however I will never give my images to a buisness who seeks to profit from those images without some sort of consideration (ie monetary reward, free trip etc).<br>

And remember when giving an image if the context of usage of that image is not defined you could get upset or worse, caught up in a legal battle when you find your image on some website modified manipulated and misrepresented.<br>

The photo you give away could be passed on to a third, fourth party and used for a purpose that completely goes against your beliefs or views on life, or is used to represent not the travell company you gave it to but perhaps a religous order contrary to you rbelief system, a multi national coorporation that you may despise.</p>

<p>So to this end my advise is, sell them under contract, if you choose to give them away..BUYER BE WARE!!</p>

[clark_kranz]

<p>Interesting thread, but there are times even for pros when giving a few photos away can be adventagous. I admit I am not a full-time pro. I shoot dog shows. For the dog shows I do sell photos to dog owners.<br>

For dog club websites, which sponser and hold the events I shoot, I willingly and gladly provide shots for the clubs use at no charge. I do this both for the priveledge of shooting event and generate more exposure of my photography to my target customer: the dog owners participating in the dog show.<br>

In this request though there is no exposure that really directly leads to future sales. No special discount offer for travel using her agency. Nothing more that the wow factor of showing friends and family look someone is using one's photo. What could improve the potential response would be something like. I am looks for x number of photos to use for a beginning travel business. Currently we do not have a budget to buy now, but can offer a contractual promise to buy x more photos over a given time frame as a specific cost. Website are frequently update so images gotten today will not be the same images shown in 6 months or even a year.<br>

This helps both a new business get started, as well as providing future earnings for the photographer.</p>

[Jerry_]

<p>"Currently we do not have a budget to buy now, but can offer a contractual promise to buy x more photos over a given time frame as a specific cost. Website are frequently update so images gotten today will not be the same images shown in 6 months or even a year.<br /> This helps both a new business get started, as well as providing future earnings for the photographer."</p>

<p>How would one word a contract to address <em>nothing now</em> , and <em>maybe nothing</em> in the future, but if the future is bright -- <strong>some form of payment</strong> will be honored?</p>

<p> </p>

[ron_erwin1]

<p>I've reread this whole thread just to be sure, and I see nothing vitriolic in any of the responses. They are firm and clear, but always reasoned, and that applies to responses from both sides of the argument.<br>

The OP should have done a little homework before posting such a question on this site. She's just lucky she didn't ask for free photos on Lightstalkers. Also, at no point has she offered any information about what she found lacking in the stock photos, what she is expecting from the photos. It really does sound like she is just asking for professional-quality for free. It's her right to ask, but don't be surprised if someone tells you off.<br>

And this whole subject is one of the most important in the business of photography today, so we should expect a lot of opposing points of view. It's complicated and it's fascinating.<br>

Jeff's comment about the travel agents reminds me of a thread here a few years ago, when someone posted about finding a wonderful photography book in a bookstore, and then everyone directed him to Amazon to buy it cheaper. Well, I'm a bookstore owner (that's how I pay the rent and support the photography) and that one hurt, especially since the advice was coming from photographers who were so passionate about defending the value of their work. Bookstores work hard to find quality books, to stock them, to promote them, and then we get passed over to save a few bucks.<br>

That's not a complaint, just an observation on the way the world is. Adapt or die. Whatever you do, keep shooting.</p>

[di-yena]

<blockquote>

<p>It's either photography for me, or flipping burgers, and flipping burgers is starting to look attractive.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Plenty of people have to earn a living doing unattractive jobs such as flipping burgers. I'm sure they would much rather do a job they enjoy and are passionate about. We earn a living in the best way possible, only we can make that happen, we can't rely on others to make it work for us.<br>

You seem to be saying that the people willing to give their photos away are being thoughtless to the pro photographer, (correct me if I am wrong). Look at it from a different angle, maybe they are being thoughtful to someone starting a new business and trying to help them get their business off the ground.</p>

[oofoto]

<p>Outstanding and talented photographers of many genres will always be able to make a living from selling their pics if they wish to do so. Good photographers may just struggle to do so as technology progresses.</p>

[anthony_murray]

<p>Seems to me that many of the people objecting here are pro photographers who are not getting much sympathy from amateurs. Well, here is an amateur who will lend some support and also object to the OPs request. Expecting free images to support a commercial enterprise is just wrong in my opinion. It's like asking the photography community for free capital to start a business. If an amateur like me is donating the images, then a mention of my name on the OPs website is of no value other than artistic recognition, so the idea that this is a fair 'barter' is ridiculous. 'Barter' means exchanging something of value for something else of equal value. <br>

There's a reason why a model release is required when a photo is to be used for commercial purposes. It's called exploitation. <br>

So to all those struggling pros out there, good luck in this tough market. I won't be trying to put you out of business. </p>

[tomsmalling]

<p>Good luck is all I can really say to this post. As others have mentioned, there is some really nice stock photography out there for really cheap prices. If you "can't" afford a couple hundred dollars for the image of your company, I think your outlook of success is pretty dismal. A bio and link on a website does not make great compensation for either a professional or an amateur photographer, and I sincerely hope no one takes you up on the offer. If you're unwilling to spend money on an image, how much are you spending on your overall brand? </p>

<p>Please understand, those of us that working in the creative industries always deal with these kind of requests. Just because I enjoy what I do doesn't mean I should give it away. Most photographers here have made significant investments in education, time and equipment to get where they are today, and this experience is worth money.</p>

[monika_epsefass]

<p>Well spoken, Anthony.</p>

<p>I am a bloody amateur, too. So? Even if photography is a creative and fulfilling pastime for me, I still do recognize the value in every picture that I take. I costs my time, my camera, my software, my effort, my knowledge. And if someone wants to have one of my pics, well, would they bloody well please pay me for my time, my camera, my software, my effort, my knowledge invested? I don't work for peanuts in my real life job, either.</p>

<p>I do give some pictures away for free, but these are to my closest friends who appreciate my work and cheer me on, or to people hosting an exposition for me as a thank-you, etc. Nevertheless: you want business? Well, then you need the funds to establish it. A well-thought budget including whatever it may take should be the foundation for every new business idea.</p>