Does anyone else miss a pop up flash on the 5Dmk2?

[arthur_reyes1]

<p>Yes, I miss the pop up flash. My previous camera was the Elan IIe and the pop up flash was quite useful in certain situations for fill flash. Yeah, its quite weak, but you just have to know its limitations. Its just another tool and if used properly will give good results.<br>

I have the 220ex and 420ex. If going light is key, the 220ex is perfect. It still lacks some versatility, but its small enough to stick in my pocket or the baby's diaper bag and it gives decent results.</p>

[savas_kyprianides]

<p>I bought the 270 expressly for using my 5DII in family party point and shoot mode. I get enough practice with my 580's and don't wish to haul them around for such use.</p>

[ralph_jensen]

<p>The Nikon D700 proves that a fully professional camera (dare I say <em>more </em> professional than the 5D2? I'd better not; let's just say "more weather-resistant") doesn't fall apart or leak just because it has a built-in flash.</p>

<p>I just love the sound arguments from all the tough guys:</p>

<p>--"It might add an ounce, which is more extra weight than I want to carry around"<br /> --"I prefer to carry two cameras, a P&S for snapshots and an SLR for 'serious' work"<br /> --"Flash pops up unexpectedly when I use camera in Green 'Idiot' mode"<br /> --"20-dollar feature adds expense to $2500 camera"</p>

<p><strong>Bottom line</strong> is that from Live View to video to sensor cleaning to popup flash to in-body IS to swiveling LCDs, there are always going to be features that some users want and others don't use ("One man's video is another man's pop-up flash"). But because none of those features add exorbitantly to the cost or seriously compromise the camera's picture-taking abilities, the manufacturers are going to gradually add all of those things to even high-level cameras.</p>

<p>You can complain about those features or you can ignore them, but the fact is that "feature creep" sells cameras. Any added expense of an individual feature is usually going to be largely offset by the lower unit-cost that results from increased sales volume.</p>

[anthony_zipple]

<p>I do not like the lighting from a pop-up. Even with a G11, I carry a small (279EX) flash. Pop-ups are handy on occasion, but not handy enough to miss. When I use my 5DMMII, I take a 580EX and bounce it off a reflector. Much better light than a pop-up</p>

[chris_clarke3]

<p>I got the 270 as a fill-in for the times I use my 5D2 for taking pictures of family stuff. Yes, I feel that I can manage that with the 5D2 without any feelings of guilt.<br>

The 270 is also good for the times when you just take the camera and one lens. It's just a viable light option. I also found at Christmas it was pretty good at giving my 16-35 a hand indoors with a bit of bounce. My mother-in-law just got a G11 and it did a great job on that too.<br>

Having come from a 20D, I found that the pop-up gave pretty awful light when used as fill or for a 'happy snap'. It also cast a shadow over every lens I had except my old long gone Tammy 17-35.<br>

So in short, I don't miss having a pop up. The 270 is a great option for travelling light and indoors with a low ceiling. For the rest of the time my 580 EX II does a splendid job on or off camera.</p>

<p> </p>

[hal_b]

<p>Ralph: thanks for the sensible response. I am overwhelmed by all the "tough guy" responses. I think there are alot of egos at stake as people realize that more expensive cameras incorporate all the features of all the less expensive cameras....except this one thing. There MUST be a reason! You'll never see any ego-maniac admit that his fancy camera lacks a feature that could ever imaginably be useful to anyone in the world, and that everyone should just carry around additional accessories to accomodate every situation. Since the quality of on-camera flash is inferior, it should not exist. By this logic, there should be no kit lenses. No true "professional" would be caught dead with anything in his bag that's not an "L" lens! And it would be no less than an embarassment to have the pop up flash give away the fact that you're shooting on "AUTO". This is akin to pitching a tent in your pants around civilized company, or letting go a fart.</p>

<p>What I think is extremely hypocritical is that nobody says they shouldn't be putting an on-camera microphone on the 5D! Sure, you don't necessarily want to record audio with the on-camera mic, but you wouldn't want to be caught without it, would you? It would be a disaster to be FORCED to use external miking, rather than to do it by CHOICE. That's what I think external flash should be: a choice. That's what distinguishes great photographers, the conscious choices.</p>

[jim_murray2]

<p>I have a 5D. Not only do I not miss the built-in flash, I wish Canon had neglected the hot shoe. The pc connector is enough.<br>

I don't trust the structural integrity of plastic to keep a top-heavy flash secure, even with the 5D's metal chassis. btw- I am<br>

using 70's flash units. Modern flashes are probably much lighter.</p>

[William Michael]

<p><em>"I don't trust the </em><strong><em>structural integrity</em></strong><em> of plastic to keep a top-heavy flash secure, even with the 5D's metal chassis."</em><br /><br />I read, in some formal notes somewhere - but I can't find the source now, that the design of the Female mount (Camera) and Male Tongue (Flash Base) are such that if a shear force is applied, the Flash breaks with least (hopefully nil) damage <strong><em>to the camera</em></strong> and with minimal (i.e. repairable) damge <em><strong>to the Flash</strong></em>.<br /><br />Obviously the paper was referring to Canon Dedicated Flash units.<br /><br />WW</p>

[david_klaffenbach]

<p>I'm always amazed at the emotion displayed regarding such a simple topic.</p>

<p>Anyways, I would occasionally miss the pop up flash, as I do use my dSLR as a point and shoot sometimes. Last time I used the popup flash was when taking a picture of my car's engine compartment before I took about 100 parts off. Why didn't I use a P&S? They drive me crazy because half the tiem I want to do something I can only do with the SLR, so I don't bother. If I don't have the SLR with me then I'll use my cell phone.</p>

<p>When I do need a bit of extra light, I use an SB-400, usually on the end of an SC-17 cord. When combined with small primes and a D90, it's quite easy to single-hand the camera while positioning the flash with my other hand.</p>

[dan_south]

<p>Friends don't let friends use pop-up flash.</p>

<p>The flash on the D700 gets in the way of shift lens usage. Canon made the right decision to eliminate this feature from the 5D2. Bravo and good riddance!</p>

[robert_edelman1]

<p>Is a pop-up flash convenient sometimes? In my opinion, yes. After all, they are always on the camera. Is it essential to have one, or is not having one a deal-breaker? Not for me. At work, I take close-up photos of peoples' faces, in particular their eyelids, with a 10D and EF 100 mm 2.8 macro using the pop-up flash, and I get satisfactory results. For my 5D I did not want to carry my 550EX around all of the time, so I purchased a Sunpack RD2000, which works well. Although it is not controlled through the camera, it is E-TTL II compatible, and it is simple to use. The Canon 270EX also looks to be a nice flash. Either of these flashes put out more light than do pop-up flashes, and they also articulate for bounce flash. The ability to control a second Speedlight through the pop-up flash on the 7D is convenient, and saves some money in regard to not having to buy a second Speedlight to use as the primary flash, or the ST-2e wireless controller. But if you are already going through the trouble of carrying one rather large flash to be used as a slave (or secondary flash, to be pc about the terminology), it's not that big of a deal to also carry the second flash or the wireless controller. The greatest advantage of a pop-up flash is convenience, and the Sunpack RD2000 and Canon 270EX are both small enough to be conveniently available, tucked away in a pocket or in a small area of a camera bag. Although the pop-up flashes can be handy, I really don't miss one very much on my 5D.</p>

[rocco1]

<p>Too bad these threads don't have the option for ratings - I would give quite a few people 7/7! Like Ben, Chas, Dan to name just a few.</p>

[manuel barrera houston,]

<p>They come in handy some times, I wish my 5D had one, it is one of the reasons I went with the 7D and not the 5DII</p>

[Stock-Photos]

<p>Julian,<br /> I use a 5D (no built-in flash) and sometimes I miss the pop-up flash, which I became accustomed to with my 10D.</p>

<p>However, I feel the 580EX lit photos I make with the 5D are often better than they'd be with a built in flash, especially since many wide lenses cast a shadow when pop-up flash is used.</p>

<p>If you want a FF camera get it ! Then buy a nice Canon flash. BTW a 7D is on my wish list, for the new features and video, tele-reach etc.</p>

<p>Here's a <a href="../photo/9070411">580EX lit photo made on the 5D</a> (read the details under image) I would never count on a built in flash for images like that one.</p>

[hal_b]

<p>For Pete's sake! The question isn't if the built-in flash is as good as a top-of-the-line 580 EXII! The question is, in absence of any external flash WHATSOEVER, is it ever a good idea to use the on camera flash, or are you always better off with NO FLASH. I can think of several situations where I'd rather use a chincy on-camera flash than none at all. Furthermore, that little bugger could be improved dramatically to really become a strongpoint on the camera, rather than ignoring it completely. This is lazy engineering, if you ask me, and complacency on the part of pro photogs.</p>

<p>The quality of external flashes doesn't even need to be a part of this discussion. It's like saying you can do more with 2 flashes than 1, or 3 is better than 2, or studio strobes are brighter than speedlights! Well, duh! But none of this has any bearing on why there shouldn't be an emergency can't-get-left-behind flash built in. Mine has saved my pictures a number of times, given me fill in a tight spot where otherwise I'd be shooting with available light only, and never gets in the way. The one perceivable problem is the interference with T/S lenses, and I would argue that there's got to be a practical fix to that interference. This is one reason why I can't have the 5D for myself. I'll be buying a D700 instead.</p>

<p>I don't understand how so many of you can mention in the same breath that you DO miss having a pop-up flash from time to time, but then say that you think it's okay for your camera to not have one. Why not demand with your dollars that Canon start putting top-quality flashes on the cameras? If the 5D had a small, bright, flexible, durable, and waterproof flash built in, that didn't interfere with anything when not in use, would this deter anybody from buying a 5D?</p>

[xavier_henri]

<p>@Hal B :</p>

<blockquote>

<p>You'll never see any ego-maniac admit that his fancy camera lacks a feature that could ever imaginably be useful to anyone in the world, and that everyone should just carry around additional accessories to accomodate every situation. Since the quality of on-camera flash is inferior, it should not exist.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Hmmm... The D700 for which I hesitated does have a real auto ISO feature (M mode) that I would really have wanted, same with the wider auto focus area. But I don't crave for the built-in flash as I nearly never used it on the EOS 33 and 20D. The 5D² does have other superior features for me though...<br>

They targeted well for me, I bought the 5D² even though it didn't have a built-in flash :)</p>

[charles_badua]

<p>This is my first post on photo.net. I am a wedding photographer. For some odd reason I chose to post in a Canon forum about the importance or non importance of a pop up flash. I guess I fall in the camp of, I love my pop up flash. I own some d700's and would say it is a very nice feature to have. Could I live with out it, of course I could, but I'd rather have it than not. Here are my reasons. Some of which have been covered, but I wanted to add some of my real world experiences about how I've found it useful. (note: I normally use Nikon's flashes - SB900, Sb800, and Sb600s, I prefer using natural lighting when possible, but I also like using creative lighting, when the lighting is boring (strobist))<br>

1. Weight / stealth - Sometimes you can't or don't want to carry a big flash around. For instance, during some engagement shoots, I have to walk pretty far or got to some pretty shady places, or places where I don't really want to have much gear on me. It's nice to know I have a flash incase the weather or lighting changes unexpectedly. I live in Seattle, so there is always a good chance of extreme weather changes that mess with the lighting. The sun could all of the sudden burst through a cloudy day, be at high noon, while we are in a place of no cover. The high sun and the ugly shadows it can bring with it on peoples faces, can be countered a little but with the pop up flash on the camera (Just enough to lighten the shadows up a bit).<br>

2. Ordinary night portraits (not the creative stuff) - Since the D700 has good low light capability, I don't really need a powerful flash all of the time. It would really need to be pitch black dark for it to be to weak. It works great when I am doing night portraits where I only need the flash to be able to reach about 5-10 feet in front of me to light up people's faces and shoulders. I rarely use flash at full power anyways, I like to have a good balance of ambient light. Today's High ISO cameras makes having a powerful flash not as important. The times I do need full power flash, are when I am using the flash/flashes off camera with pocket wizards anyways and I manually set power. The popup flash helps bring a little light to people's faces in the dark situations where there is lighting, but its just not hitting people's faces.<br>

3. Peace of mind - knowing, if for some reason my main flashes die, and I don't have my backups with me, I still have my popup option. As a wedding photographer, you can never have too many backups or options. The environment and lighting can change very quickly.<br>

4. Controlling remotes flashes on camera in unexpected situations - sometimes I only need one off camera flash, and sometimes the need is not always prepared for. For example, I could be in an engagement session where I just have to have a shot with an off camera flash. I didn't lug around my pocket wizards, only brought one flash, so what am I to do? I really want to, say, place the strobe behind the couple or to the upper right or left of them, so what do I do? With the popip flash, I have the option to use the commander function (not sure what its called in Canon terms, but I believe the 7d has the same thing) I can control all my TTL/ power for off camera flash functions via the camera, and use my one flash off camera in conjuction with my pop up flash. I've gotten some nice off camera lit stuff like this.<br>

5. To the naysayers about weight and durability - It adds negligible weight! As far as water - Living in Seattle it rains often and unexpectedly sometimes, my D700 has served me well in some pretty heavy rain. Never has the popup flash caused water to leak in and kill the camera. In the situations I would worry about this, I would not take the camera out of the bag anyways, and I doubt people would want to be photographed in a torrential downpour.<br>

6. Macro - there have been times I used the popup to shoot some details or people's rings. I took off the on camera flash because when bouncing the flash, because there was too much stuff on the ceiling so I was getting cast shadows. The reflection off of a diamond ring, sometimes looks better with the popup flash unbelievably. It doesn't always look better, but depending on the environment and lighting, sometimes it does.<br>

7. options are nice - power windows on a car nice? do you need them? No, but I'm guessing your car has them =).<br>

Ok I don't think I've ever written this much in awhile lol. Hope this helps people convert the the popup flash camp side.</p>

 

[mattb1]

<p>Some of these responses are REALLY funny. Come on, a pop up flash is not intended to totally replace a real flash unit. It also won't compromise the camera if engineered correctly, I really doubt it will get in the way of anything or come on when you don't want it. And yes, a lot of times it will help on a sunny day when you have strong shadows on peoples faces, no not all the time, but they are better than nothing. I did some event photography recently and forgot my flash, I had to spend some time in photoshop to try and over come the shadows. May not have had to do that if I had a pop up flash.</p>

<p>I just love the idea that the dividing line between professional and consumer is a pop up flash. Like no one could use the d700 or 7d professionally. Or is it that some can't figure out how to make use of a pop up flash?</p>

[joe_allebaugh]

<p>FOR! I expect a 7D-style pop-up flash (control external flash units, with OR without light from the camera flash) on any new body I might buy from Canon! I missed its occasional functionality on the 5D compared to my 20D. The 5D2 was a Pass for me, for many reasons. The 7D is just right for providing this feature at this time.</p>

<p>I no longer want to remember to pack the ST-E2, or spend several hundred dollars to plop a full Speedlite in the hotshoe simply to trigger an external light, or buy PWs and other stuff. I'll pay Canon an extra $100 for including both the flash and external flash control in the next FF body. The $300-400 extra for the 7D compared to the x0D-line bodies was well worth the outlay.</p>

<p>And I'll give them $10 more for a simple MLU-on-demand button! - End customer feedback.</p>

 

[julian_hudson]

<p>Well, thanks everyone for their comments.<br>

I think Charles Badua and Mat Brost hit the nail on the head for me.<br>

I just found that it was useful to add a little fill light and lift the shadows on a sunny day when I had nothing else.<br>

After all these comments I'm going to check out the 220/270 speedlite on a 5Dmk2 - thanks Tommy DiGiovanni for the photos. Yes, I know it is no 580 but if it's compact enough it might be just the ticket for me.</p>

[scott_ferris]

<p>I've never had one..................</p>

[William Michael]

<p>................................. you don't know what you are missing</p>

[scott_ferris]

<p>Hi William :-)</p>

<p>Well I think I do a little bit. Most of my lenses could cause a pop up problems though, either the pattern wouldn't go wide enough or the lens could cast a shadow, but, I have used a D700 and the pop up on that and it seemed to work well, then again Nikon flash generally does. I really like that the 7D pop up can trigger remote flashes, saves having that pesky ST-E2, if the pro bodies had that functionality over and above just the seldom used fill aspect then I am sure it would be more interesting to many who buy those kinds of cameras.</p>

<p>Whilst some of the answers might have sounded elitist I think that could be a little unfair, I well understand why the 1 series cameras don't have them and the people who generally buy those bodies new don't have a desire for the feature, but I see no reason at all for the 5D and 5D MkII to not have them.</p>

[William Michael]

<p> <em >". . .then again Nikon flash generally does . . ."</em> That was well crafted into the reply :) <br>

<br>

On the pop up theme, though, I like to keep my view on it it simple - I would have used a PUF on my 5D at a few Weddings where I was a <strong ><em >guest</em></strong> and strolling with my 5D and my 35 or 50 Prime – there are occasions I would have liked a bit of Flash fill for outside.<br>

<br>

But just like using tele-extenders - the PUF is simply “handy to have around”.<br>

<br>

And if you have one, it's good to learn how to use it and how to use it well. Even better to know the limitations, and to never assume the PUF (and tele-extenders) are same thing as having a 300F/2.8L, a large studio packed with Elinchrom Lighting Gear, three Assistants and a truck load of semi-clad and beautiful Models.<br>

<br>

By the same token, it is also good to learn how to use “P” – some say it is for P for Program Mode, but I kind of like telling the congregation’s Uncle Bob’s it is “P for Professional” – so I guess I won’t get to heaven telling pork pies . . . <br>

<br>

Take care Scott, it is always a pleasure to touch base with you.<br>

<br>

WW</p>

<p>Have you played tele-extender surfing yet?</p>

[aphrodite_sokrates]

<p>The camera has such a could low light performance you won't need it and you shouldn't use it anyway as pop up flashes really kill an image.</p>