Best Portrait lens for Canon EOS 7D

oofoto · January 29, 2010

When I had a crop sensor camera (10D) I used the 50mm 1.4 far more effectively than the 85mm 1.8 (i have both) but bought them for 35mm film cameras. I think your choice is great as you can decide which suits you best for a reasonable cost.

With either of these lenses you can still blur the background if you fill the frame with the subject on either lens and ensure the subject to background distance is as large as possible. If you fill the frame with either of the lenses you will notice very very little difference between shots regarding dof and subject appearance.

Also f/4 is your friend unless you can afford to take a chance.

Landrum Kelly · January 29, 2010

Congratulations, Steve. You have chosen the two best values in lenses that Canon offers, in my opinion. Good luck and happy shooting.

--Lannie

rob_oresteen · January 30, 2010

Since you can manualy focus consider the Zeiss 85 1.4. You can buy it new with the Canon mount for $1,100.00 or get the excellent Zeiss w/ the Contax mount used for around $650.00 - $750.00 and use an EOS adapter, about $45.00.

I have the latter and the image quality is excellent and the backgrounds can be that creamy, sweet Zeiss boketh your clients will love.

df · January 31, 2010

I don't disagree with any of the comments made. I have a 50 1.4 that I use on my 20D and 50D. I recently was "forced by necessity" to buy a 50mm 1.8. For $99 you might want to try this throw-away-lens for awhile before making a bigger investment.

leslienicolephoto · May 3, 2013

I know this thread is old, but it's exactly what I'm researching right now as well. I want to "up my game" with portraits. I really want a clear, luminous quality with lovely background blur and bokeh. (Yes, I know that getting that is at least equal parts skill!)

Right now I have a Canon Macro f2.8 60MM, and the Canon 70-200 f4 L lens and the basic Canon kit lens. f5.6 28-135. If I understand correctly, the qualities and the perspective of a lens don't change, just the crop factor. Basically - I would have to stand back farther to get the same crop that a full-body camera would get, yes?

I want to be able to do portraits in studio and outdoors - some tight, but most probably part to full body. I was looking at my most recent portraits and nearly all of them use at least 100 mm on my zoom, so the 85 might be nice to get. On the other hand, I'm tempted to get the EF 24-70mm f/2.8L II USM so I have a zoom that compliments the 70-200 (at better quality than my kit lens.)

Money is not unlimited, but I'm willing to put it towards an expensive lens if it is really much better than what I have.

So, will I see a substantial quality difference from my 60mm macro and will I really regret not having those extra 2 stops that Canon 70-200 f2.8 L lens for portrait work? I've done some rather nice portraits with the 70-200 recently - the background was nicely blurred - but it was also far away.

I'm sort of thinking out loud as I go here. Perhaps I need to see how far I can push the equipment I have before I decide what I really need next! With that said - what about that EF 24-70mm f/2.8L II USM as a next lens?<div></div>

Brad_ · May 3, 2013

>>> Best Portrait lens...

Need to get Jeff Spirer to weigh in on that.

William Michael · May 4, 2013

If I understand correctly, the qualities and the perspective of a lens don't change, just the crop factor. Basically - I would have to stand back farther to get the same crop that a full-body camera would get, yes?

</blockquote>

A Lens does NOT “have perspective”. Perspective is a RESULT OF the Camera’s Viewpoint. The Camera’s Viewpoint is a product of the DISTANCE to the SUBJECT and the relative ELEVATION of the Camera to the Subject. The fact that you will stand back farther to make the same FRAMING with any particular lens used on a smaller sensor camera (aka ‘crop camera’), than if you used the same lens on a “full-body”” camera DOES change the PERSPECTIVE.

***

The qualities of a lens don’t change, however if an Canon EF Lens is used on and APS-C camera, then a SMALLER portion of the Lens’s IMAGE CIRCLE is being used to cover the APC-S sensor; therefore, there is often comment that one might note a slight increase in image quality of some EF Lenses when used on the smaller sensor cameras. This is more often and or more readily noted in the ‘Prosumer’ class of the EF Lenses and particular to lens’ deficiencies such as vignetting and chromatic aberration, as two examples: because these deficiencies are noticed more at the edges of the Lens’s Image Circle. Also because some Lens Deficiencies are more noticeable at the very large and maximum apertures, we can expect that an EF Lens might perform slightly better on a APS-C when using the lens wide open – for example your EF 28 to 135 zoom.

***

So, will I see a substantial quality difference from my 60mm macro and will I really regret not having those extra 2 stops that Canon 70-200 f2.8 L lens for portrait work? I've done some rather nice portraits with the 70-200 recently - the background was nicely blurred - but it was also far away.

</blockquote>

I am confused. I do not fully understand what you are asking - I understand you are considering buying 85/1.8 - OR - a 24 to 70/2.8 MkII?

Assuming you also have a 7D (or other APS-C camera) – then comparing the 24 to 70 F/2.8 L MkII to the 60/2.8 - I doubt you’ll see any difference in Image Quality - but what you will gain is the flexibility of the zoom.

The 85/1.8 is a cracker lens and magnificent value for money. By setting your existing zoom to 85 mm, you could experiment as to how it might fit with the 60/2.8 as a pair of Prime Lenses for your Portraiture pursuits.

***

Secondly, I don’t understand the reference to: “not having the extra two stops” “will I really regret not having those extra 2 stops that Canon 70-200 f2.8 L lens for portrait work?” What lenses are you comparing where one has an extra two stops?

***

I think you also need to look at how much space you will have in your studio. For most Studio’s dimensions using a 7D - then a 24 to 70 lens would be more suitable than an 85 Prime to: “be able to do portraits in studio and outdoors - some tight, but most probably part to full body.” WW

leslienicolephoto · May 4, 2013

Hi WW,

You're right. I'm sure my post has lots of confusing elements as I'm trying to organize my own thoughts and research as to what I want. I'll try to clarify a bit. (To the extent that I'm able!) I may not have the right vernacular for describing things, so I ask for your patience in helping me figure out what I'm really asking.

<ol>

<li>I am trying to fully understand the crop factor. I understand the easy part that it has a smaller crop of the sensor and that you need to take that into consideration as it gives a greater zoom than on a full sensor camera. However, what other things need to be considered when choosing a lens such as glass sharpness, aperture blades, DOF, etc? So, yes, I can use my 60mm macro or my 70-200 for portraits, but I'm trying to determine if there are better versions of those focal length lenses for what I want to do.</li>

<li>My ultimate goal is that I want to improve my portrait technique. 90% off that will studying and practicing my technique, but I'm also trying to determine what % of trying to get gorgeous, clear skin tones and lovely, blurred backgrounds has to do with sharpness of the glass, DOF capacity, and aperture blades. The qualities of a lens besides the focal length. Would there really be little difference in quality between my $470 <a href="http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/professional/products/lenses/ef_lens_lineup/lens_macro_pro/ef_s_60mm_f_2_8_macro_usm">EF-S 60mm f/2.8 Macro USM</a> lens and a $2300 <a href="http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/professional/products/lenses/ef_lens_lineup/lens_standard_pro/ef_24_70mm_f_2_8l_ii_usm">EF 24-70mm f/2.8L II USM</a>? That's a little hard to believe!</li>

<li>You're right, I misused the term "Perspective". I do need clarification on this. If focal length affects distortion and DOF (I think I mean the distortion when I say perspective) than wouldn't said distortion and DOF be the same, just cropped in more on a cropped sensor? See <a href="http://www.mcpactions.com/blog/2010/07/21/the-ideal-focal-length-for-portraiture-a-photographers-experiment/">this post</a> for what I mean by distortion. What causes the distortion in wide angle lenses, is it being closer to the subject or is it the characteristics of the lens at that focal length? (I hope that is clear - I don't know how else to say it!)</li>

<li>My question about “will I really regret not having those extra 2 stops that Canon 70-200 f2.8 L lens for portrait work?” is in comparison to the Canon 70-200 f4 L lens that I already own. How much advantage do I lose by only having an f4 if as some point out you wouldn't actually be shooting a portrait at f2.8? I believe I've read that a lens is sharpest when used above the widest aperture it can go, so perhaps that is an issue?</li>

</ol>

I know this is getting long, but I want to ask two further questions to help clarify my questions above.

<ol>

<li>If I were to take a photograph with my 7D using let's say a <a href="http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/professional/products/lenses/ef_lens_lineup/lens_standmed_pro/ef_50mm_f_1_4_usm">EF 50mm f/1.4 USM</a> lens and a photographer beside me using a full-frame sensor were to take the same photo using the <a href="http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/professional/products/lenses/ef_lens_lineup/lens_standmed_pro/ef_85mm_f_1_2l_ii_usm">EF 85mm f/1.2L II USM</a> - what would be the differences in the photo? Would the image distortion be the same? Would the sharpness be the same? Would the background blur of the bokeh be the same?</li>

<li>What if I took the above photograph using the <a href="http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/professional/products/lenses/ef_lens_lineup/lens_standmed_pro/ef_50mm_f_1_2l_usm">EF 50mm f/1.2L USM</a> compared to the <a href="http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/professional/products/lenses/ef_lens_lineup/lens_standmed_pro/ef_50mm_f_1_4_usm">EF 50mm f/1.4 USM</a>? What would the difference be?</li>

</ol>

I Wish I had a good rental department near by. I live in the boonies of France. I used to live in S.F. and rented equipment all the time. Hmmm. I wonder if there is a mail order rental here? Have to check into it. Would be worth renting the lenses I'm thinking about and testing against what I have.

I thank you for your help working through this!

leslienicolephoto · May 4, 2013

I just found a rental by mail in France! I'll be trying out a few lenses! Actually, would also like to try out a full-sensor body as well...

William Michael · May 4, 2013

OK there are lots of parts to your many questions.

I believe I understand most of what you are asking, but I don’t have the time at the moment to respond to every point.

But a few points:

<ul>

<li>A lens is NOT usually the sharpest when it is used at its ‘widest’ (LARGEST) aperture: it is usually sharpest a few stops down.</li>

<li>F/2.8 to F/4 is one stop – and for Portrait Situations where it is a Tighter Shot (e.g. Tight Head Shot) the DoF difference will be minimal, however for a Wider Shot (e.g. Full Length Shot) the DoF difference might be significant to the flavour of the image. Certainly for a Wider Shot, the DoF Differential of an F/4 lens compared to a very fast lens (e.g. F/2 or F/1.4) will be more often significant. Note that a “Tight Shot” and a “Wide Shot” refers to the FRAMING and NOT to the Focal Length of the Lens.</li>

<li>One reason why many Portrait Photographers choose 135 Format (aka “Full Frame”) DSLR Cameras and not APS-C Format, is because the larger format will allow a smaller DoF for any given Shot (meaning and same “Framing”) – this goes to answering your question about different lenses on different camera formats and this <a href="/photo/13136700&size=lg">montage</a> should illustrate this point.</li>

</ul>

WW

leslienicolephoto · May 4, 2013

A lens is NOT usually the sharpest when it is used at its ‘widest’ (LARGEST) aperture: it is usually sharpest a few stops down.

</blockquote>

Yes, as I said: "I believe I've read that a lens is sharpest when used above the widest aperture it can go." (Yes, "largest" is the correct term and stopped down is more accurate than "above"!)

I looked at your montage, which is somewhat helpful. Still interested in the difference in image distortion. Am I using that term correctly?

Thanks!

William Michael · May 4, 2013

Briefly - Ah sorry - my error. I misread "above the widest aperture it can go". I didn't read "above".

Be back later.

WW

leslienicolephoto · May 4, 2013

Briefly - Ah sorry - my error. I misread "above the widest aperture it can go". I didn't read "above".

</blockquote>

Actually, it's good for me to be pushed to use the correct vocabulary. Would have been easier for you to understand:-)

William Michael · May 5, 2013

. . . what other things need to be considered when choosing a lens such as glass sharpness, aperture blades, DOF, etc? So, yes, I can use my 60mm macro or my 70-200 for portraits, but I'm trying to determine if there are better versions of those focal length lenses for what I want to do.

</blockquote>

OK – understood.

I think we have discussed all this except aperture blades. Rounded ones are usually nicer for “bokeh”. But I don’t get all hung up on Bokeh, though. But, on the other hand I like an even number of aperture blades, mainly because I shoot a lot of available light and I often shoot into the light and the starburst is better (IMO) if there is an even number of blades. Anyway I think an even number of blades tends to be nicer for Bokeh if the Bokeh portions take on some of the geometric patterns of the aperture blades

***

My ultimate goal is that I want to improve my portrait technique. 90% off that will studying and practicing my technique, but I'm also trying to determine what % of trying to get gorgeous, clear skin tones and lovely, blurred backgrounds has to do with sharpness of the glass, DOF capacity, and aperture blades. The qualities of a lens besides the focal length. Would there really be little difference in quality between my $470 <a href="http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/professional/products/lenses/ef_lens_lineup/lens_macro_pro/ef_s_60mm_f_2_8_macro_usm" target="_blank">EF-S 60mm f/2.8 Macro USM</a> lens and a $2300 <a href="http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/professional/products/lenses/ef_lens_lineup/lens_standard_pro/ef_24_70mm_f_2_8l_ii_usm" target="_blank">EF 24-70mm f/2.8L II USM</a>? That's a little hard to believe!

</blockquote>

OK – DoF and ‘background blur’ (Bokeh – the quality of it) and Foreground Blur and related but are all different. <a href="/casual-conversations-forum/00bc9M">Have a look at this thread.</a> Read Bob Atkins’ essay in the link he provides. Perhaps download his “Blur Calc” tool.

***

Answering your specific question:

“Would there really be little difference in quality between my $470 <a href="http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/professional/products/lenses/ef_lens_lineup/lens_macro_pro/ef_s_60mm_f_2_8_macro_usm" target="_blank">EF-S 60mm f/2.8 Macro USM</a> lens and a $2300 <a href="http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/professional/products/lenses/ef_lens_lineup/lens_standard_pro/ef_24_70mm_f_2_8l_ii_usm" target="_blank">EF 24-70mm f/2.8L II USM</a>? That's a little hard to believe!”

</blockquote>

Yes. Truly there would be very little difference.

You are paying an extra two grand for the F/2.8 aperture across the whole zoom range to make very high quality images AT ALL FOCAL LENGTHS. That costs a lot of $$$ (well - they can sell it for a lot of $$$).

If you want ‘value for money’ then you might want to look at a couple more Prime Lenses? You’d be pressed to see very much real world difference in quality between the prosumer primes used at F/2.8 (24/2.8; 35/2; 50/1.4; 85/1.8) compared the 24 to 70L used at F/2.8. The most obvious (real world) differences will be with the 24 and the 35 when those lenses are used at F/2.8 – the zoom will indeed cream them.

But, when we get to the 50/1.4 and the 85/1.8 (used at F/2.8) and compare those lenses to the zoom there will be very little difference. It is a lot easier (and cheaper) to design and make a good quality Prime Lens, than a zoom lens – a Zoom Lens has many more compromises.

What you are paying for in that zoom lens is the convenience of many focal lengths and the F/2.8 speed whilst keeping at EXCELLENT Image Quality: a better comparison is Zoom compared to Zoom and not Zoom to Prime.

***

I misused the term "Perspective". I do need clarification on this. If focal length affects distortion and DOF (I think I mean the distortion when I say perspective) than wouldn't said distortion and DOF be the same, just cropped in more on a cropped sensor? See <a href="http://www.mcpactions.com/blog/2010/07/21/the-ideal-focal-length-for-portraiture-a-photographers-experiment/" target="_blank">this post</a> for what I mean by distortion. What causes the distortion in wide angle lenses, is it being closer to the subject or is it the characteristics of the lens at that focal length? (I hope that is clear - I don't know how else to say it!)

</blockquote>

I understand what you are asking.

The most common ‘distortion’ in wide angle lenses, used for portraiture to which you refer is FORESHORTENING.

That is where the front bit appears terribly big compared to the back bit (which is ‘foreshortened’) - here big glasses, smaller head, much smaller people behind in the background:

“Love those Glasses” 5D & EF24 F/1.4L

Another aspect often referred to is “Compression” – e.g. you might read "a 135mm lens provides just the right 'Compression' for a Portrait."

For example here the Subject’s Eye Glasses, nose head and body all appear to be in correct relationships:

Candid Portrait – 5D & EF135F/2

Here is a similar shot using an 85mm lens on a 5D, and the face is less “Compressed” than when using the 135mm lens:

Candid Portrait 5D & EF 85F/1.8

***

“What causes the distortion in wide angle lenses, is it being closer to the subject or is it the characteristics of the lens at that focal length?”

</blockquote>

Yes you are correct.

What I wrote above is all about PERSPECTIVE and the DISTANCE from the camera to the Subject.

If I were to use the 24mm lens and stand back as a far as I was for the shot using the 135mm lens and then later cropped that section, then there would be NO foreshortening.

***

However another aspect of a Wide Angle Lens which often plays havoc into Portraiture (especially Groups Portraiture) is the effects of Barrel Distortion and Keystone Distortion.

Barrelling is where the lens curves outwards and is often seen more at the edges:

20D & Kit Lens set at 20mm

For group portraiture what can happen is : ”fat people at the edge syndrome” - where the barrelling of the lens makes people have fat arms or bottoms.

Also, combine this with “Keystone Distortion” – which happens when a WA lens is NOT square (90°) in both axes to the Subject: the parallel lines in the scene will converge – then there can be quite strange results occur to people's images when they are located at the edges or at the top or at the bottom of the frame.

***

My question about “will I really regret not having those extra 2 stops that Canon 70-200 f2.8 L lens for portrait work?” is in comparison to the Canon 70-200 f4 L lens that I already own. How much advantage do I lose by only having an f4 if as some point out you wouldn't actually be shooting a portrait at f2.8? I believe I've read that a lens is sharpest when used above the widest aperture it can go, so perhaps that is an issue?

</blockquote>

OK - I understand.

I think I have covered that, but just in closing - the difference between F/4 and F/2.8 for Portraiture, in regard to Depth of Field, will be more noticeable for Full Length Portraiture and ONLY IF you want to have minimum DoF.

Also the F/4 to F/2.8 difference will be noticeable in regard to Background Blur – and again more noticeable for the longer Portrait Shots.

For example this is a candid Portrait taken with a 5D using the EF 24 to 105F/4L IS, at F/5.6 and 105mm and I am OK with both the DoF and the Background Blur, but as you can see it is NOT a Full Length Portrait:

***

If I were to take a photograph with my 7D using let's say a <a href="http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/professional/products/lenses/ef_lens_lineup/lens_standmed_pro/ef_50mm_f_1_4_usm" target="_blank">EF 50mm f/1.4 USM</a> lens and a photographer beside me using a full-frame sensor were to take the same photo using the <a href="http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/professional/products/lenses/ef_lens_lineup/lens_standmed_pro/ef_85mm_f_1_2l_ii_usm" target="_blank">EF 85mm f/1.2L II USM</a> - what would be the differences in the photo? Would the image distortion be the same? Would the sharpness be the same? Would the background blur of the bokeh be the same?

What if I took the above photograph using the <a href="http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/professional/products/lenses/ef_lens_lineup/lens_standmed_pro/ef_50mm_f_1_2l_usm" target="_blank">EF 50mm f/1.2L USM</a> compared to the <a href="http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/professional/products/lenses/ef_lens_lineup/lens_standmed_pro/ef_50mm_f_1_4_usm" target="_blank">EF 50mm f/1.4 USM</a>? What would the difference be?

</blockquote>

OK.

We have established that the Perspective will be the same (almost) for each shot – so in these respects the foreshortening and compression (the representation of the human form) will be the same – because both images were made at the SAME DISTANCE from the Subject.

Secondly the DoF will NOT be the same (if the same aperture is used). And that is show in the montage I supplied earlier.

Thirdly the Background Blur and the quality of it (Bokeh) will not be the same, even if the same aperture is used, because they are different lenses.

Fourthly, how sharp each will be, will depend upon the aperture used. And there are several (hundreds) of discussions here about the: EF 50F/1.2L and EF50 F/1.4L and the 85L MkII and the 85 F/1.8 – and also about how sharp the L zooms are compared and contrasted to various Prime Lenses.

***

Bottom Line:

Speaking about Portraiture only - for my money, if I buy a fast lens I will indeed use it wide open or close to wide open: the reason for that use might not be (usually is not) to get the shallowest DoF, but rather so I can attain a faster Shutter Speed than I might otherwise with a slower lens.

This is because I tend to generally use only available light for Portraiture – and much of my portrait work is not controlled: ‘candid’ of you like – so I often require the faster shutter speeds to arrest both Camera Shake and also Subject Motion, this is one reason why I tend to use Prime Lens, quite often.

Generally speaking, many Portrait Photographers will most often use a Zoom Lens for Portraiture, because that will provide the best value for money “many Focal Lengths” in one lens. If one seeks high quality, then the Canon L Zooms will provide that. If one wants a fast lens, then the F/2.8 Zooms really are Prestige pieces of Kit.

However I really do think that form all I have gleaned of you meaning and passion – if you want to extend your Portrait work specifically: then a move to a 135 Format Camera (aka “Full Frame”) will bode well for you as it will allow you to explore the really shallow DoF and fully utilize some of the marvellous lenses such as the 135/2, the 85/1.8 or 85 1.2MkII at shooting distances more likely suitable for most Portrait works.

As a beginning - the EF 24 to 70 F/2.8 L MkII USM is a fine lens and will allow you to make great images. Combine that lens with your 70 to 200F/4L (and a ‘Full Frame’ Camera), I do believe that you will rock . . . and then you’ll likely want a couple of Primes.

So, for your Portraiture pursuits, I do not see any disadvantage in you getting the 24 to 70/2.8L MkII. You can use this lens with your 7D and later evaluate whether you should change camera formats.

***

I was travelling around the Loire Valley in September and October last year. It would be coincidence it the woman whom I spied toting a white lens around in the rural areas, was you!

WW

leslienicolephoto · May 6, 2013

WW, first of all - you ROCK! I really thank you for taking the time to write all of this out with examples. All of your responses have been patient and informative. I feel like I understand the issues pretty well now and I'll do more research based on the correct terminology now.

It's a little embarrassing to admit I don't have these concepts down after so long in photography - (I did take a very long side trip into design though). Having spent years working in pro darkrooms and then in professional digital imaging, I tend to be much stronger in the post-processing equation of making photographs. I'm finding though that I'm wanting to balance my skills on the other side of the lens. I'm an adequate photographer and I'd like to be a good (if not great!) photographer.

Since my last post, I've been doing more research and reading. I've taken advantage of my Creative Edge subscription and I've been looking at portrait photography books. This is really helpful as they usually give examples with the lens/ f.stop / focal length, etc. One I was looking at this morning, nearly every shot so far is with the 20-70mm and most taken under f4.

I've decided I am going to buy a 5D MKII this year and the 20-70mm and then I'll start getting more primes (like the 85). I'm planning a trip to the US this year and figured out that if I buy from B&H while I'm there, the savings compared to buying in France (with dollars) will just about pay for my ticket! So, in September, I should be equipped with ideal (for me) equipment. Until then, I'm going to study and practice with my 7D and the equipment I have to hone my skills.

Who knows? Maybe it was me toting the white lens! I usually tote the white lens when I'm photographing dogs in the field. I'll attach a snapshot made by my husband.<div></div>

William Michael · May 6, 2013

Seems a very sound plan predicted on a good base of logic and research. Good luck with it.

***

Well, the woman did have a baseball cap on her head, but I didn't see any dogs with her.

WW

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