News for wide-angle shooters unhappy with current digital SLR's

[dick_ginkowski]

1. Yesterday morning the Canon Europe site contained the following

announcement:

 

Photokina marks the 15-year anniversary of EOS as a brand. Canon is

announcing two new EOS models at the show - the world's highest

resolution Pro-camera, the EOS 1Ds and the EOS 300V, which is

predicted to become the world�s number 1 selling SLR camera.

 

The EOS-1Ds features the first ever full frame 35mm CMOS sensor with

11.1 million effective pixels. The EOS-1Ds capture astounding detail

& colour, almost doubling the resolution ordinarily considered state

of the art for a digital SLR camera in the world today.*

 

Also new this year are three digital still cameras, all featuring the

new high performance DIGital Imaging Core (DIGIC) processor. One of

the trio, the Digital IXUS v³, is claiming the position as the

world�s smallest 3.2 Megapixel digital camera with optical zoom and

LCD monitor.*

 

2. Above the announcement was the date 24 September 2002 and appears

to have been prematurely released.

 

3. The above announcement was never on the Canon USA site.

 

4. The above announcement was subsequently pulled from the Canon

Europe site.

 

5. Apparently other forums received "requests" to delete threads on

this topic which appear to have been essentially honored.

 

6. Somebody at Canon Europe probably has their proverbial mammary

appendages in the proverbial wringer at this time.

[ellis_vener_photography]

Supposedly Nikon & Kodak may also soon be announcing a

12MP 24 x36mm CCD sensored SLR very soon as well.<P> I 'd

rather see a better alternative to the the 14mm rectilinear (non

fisheye) lenses for wide angle work AND up the resolution of the

current size sensor. I like having a 120-300mm f/2.8 zoom.<P>I

also suspect that the Canon 'leak' was deliberate -- an attempt to

get you salivating and ready for the "official" announcement. After

all, admit it:: Don't you already feel your credit card burning a

hole in your pocket?

[richard_cochran]

<cite>the EOS 300V, which is <b>predicted to become</b> the world�s number 1 selling SLR camera.</cite>

<p>

Predicted to become?

<p>

I have absolutely no idea whether this camera will be any good

or not, but it looks like the marketing folks who know the

camera best can't think of anything better to say than

claiming that they predict they'll sell a lot. That doesn't

speak well for the camera.

[raul_lithgo]

"full frame 35mm CMOS"

 

So those of us who are telephoto oriented will lose the multiplier effect. One man's poison....

[vesa_perala]

"So those of us who are telephoto oriented will lose the multiplier effect. One man's poison...."

 

Not really, you can just crop the 11MP fullframe image and

imagine you have a smaller sensor with less pixels...

 

But still more pixels or more cropping than EOS-1D

(assuming my calculations are correct).

 

Vesa

[clivecc]

Excuse my ignorance if I'm wrong but if you take a 11.1 Megapixel chip that is 36x24mm and divide the width & height by the 1.6 multiplying factor of a D60 then we arrive at an equivalent 4.3 Megapixels for a chip the size of a D60. The D60 is 6.3 Megapixel (or something like that) so the density of pixels is greater on the D60 (or pixel size smaller). Therefore for the telephoto extremists who need the extra length it may be better to use the D60 than crop a 1Ds image down to the equivalent D60 size. The other side of it may be that the 1Ds may have a better "quality" of pixels and yield a better overall image even after cropping down to the equivalent D60 size.

 

Oh well we shall see if; first it is for real; and second what the critics say before I buy either one. At this stage it still takes a lot to beat Velvia or Provia.

[bobatkins]

Since this camera isn't yet available (it hasn't even been officially announced yet!) I've put a limited life on this thread. If and when anyone gets their hands on one and has time to evaluate it for nature work, we can start a new thread with "real facts" in it!

 

Lots of comments and speculation can be found in the photo.net non-archived forum and the EOS FAQ forum.

[dick_ginkowski]

I got hung up with "day job" responsibilities today and did not get a chance to post that this news has been CONFIRMED by Canon USA's Chuck Westfall as quoted in PC Magazine online.

 

This is not speculation -- it is C O N F I R M E D.

[karl_lehmann]

11.1 megapixels... if I cropped that down to 1 pixel that would turn my 50mm into a 136,000mm super tele!!! I could probably shoot mountain goats from Nebraska!

[dick_ginkowski]

1. Currently digital SLRs have a "magnification factor" (1.3x for the Canon 1D, 1.5x for Nikon and 1.6x for Canon D30/D60).

 

2. For many wildlife shooters, including me, the 1.6x is a boon in that, for example, my 300mm f/2.8L with a 2x becomes on my D60 a 960mm f/5.6. In the post 9/11 travel world where maximizingng every centimeter of available space in a camera bag is important the digital camerass have made it a lot easier in that respect.

 

3. On the flip side, a lot of photographers upset about not being able to get the ultra wide angle shots they were accustomed to with film have been scrambling to buy expensive super ultrawide angle lenses.

 

4. The move to a full frame, no crop system has implications for those of us in both camps as it may affect many, many decisions we will have to make from this day forward.

[dick_ginkowski]

Upon looking at this thread, I am going to repost this with a different subject line and incorporate the confirmation story and the original news release from Canon.

[dick_ginkowski]

for some reason I lost the post. Grrrrr.

[yuri_huta]

http://www.digitalfocus.net/sections/views/1DsRumour/1DsRelease.htm

leaked press release 'caught' and preserved by Digital Focus

 

anon Europe 1Ds Press Release - Leaked 9/10/02

 

Canon Europe celebrates Digital Revolution at Photokina 2002

 

24/9/2002

 

Witness the launch of Canon Imaging Gateway an online digital imaging service for consumers takes its large format printers to high street print shops to deliver fast, large-scale image reproduction

 

· Canon celebrates 15 years of EOS with the launch of the EOS 1Ds - the world's highest resolution professional camera

 

Cologne, Germany � Canon Europe will use Photokina 2002 as the launch-pad for its latest innovative digital technologies designed to meet the demands of both the consumer imaging and professional print markets.

Forecasting a stunning 70% increase in production of digital still cameras, 2002 has already been an historic year for Canon Europe as both professionals and consumers fully embrace digital imaging.

 

Mr Hajime Tsuruoka, Canon Europe�s Chief Executive Officer and President, said: �Canon Europe is at the forefront of the digital revolution and we plan to remain there. Our strengths as an organisation lie in our implicit understanding of the digital process from start to finish. In addition, we are one of the only electronics companies that own and continue to develop innovative technologies for both the consumer and professional print markets and many of these products will be unveiled at this year�s Photokina show, one of the most important industry events in the Canon Europe calendar.�

 

Canon Consumer Imaging

 

Photokina marks the 15-year anniversary of EOS as a brand. Canon is announcing two new EOS models at the show - the world's highest resolution Pro-camera, the EOS 1Ds and the EOS 300V, which is predicted to become the world�s number 1 selling SLR camera.

 

The EOS-1Ds features the first ever full frame 35mm CMOS sensor with 11.1 million effective pixels. The EOS-1Ds capture astounding detail & colour, almost doubling the resolution ordinarily considered state of the art for a digital SLR camera in the world today.*

 

Also new this year are three digital still cameras, all featuring the new high performance DIGital Imaging Core (DIGIC) processor. One of the trio, the Digital IXUS v3, is claiming the position as the world�s smallest 3.2 Megapixel digital camera with optical zoom and LCD monitor.*

 

Along with the new additions to the camera line up, Canon is announcing Canon Imaging Gateway (CIG), a digital imaging web site, which Canon Europe sees as the vital missing link in Customer Relationship Management (CRM) by creating a one-on-one communication channel to consumer users.

 

The online solution will allow users to download updates for their digital cameras, in much the same way that mobile phoneusers download personalised ring-tones. CIG also offers other services online, such as photo albums, photo-printing.

 

Canon Business Solutions

 

Canon, recently named one of the world�s �Innovation Elite� by Reuters Business Insight, will also announce the decision by its Business Solutions division to target high-street mini labs with its new range of industry-leading, large format printing devices.

 

On stand at the show, Canon will be demonstrating how large format devices, such as the W2200 and W7250, will offer the photographic and photo finishing markets innovative solutions to reproduce digital images in poster size, with speed and ease.

 

Accessible, easy to use, large format Canon printers will be installed in high street photo labs, a move that the market leaders see as a natural progression in the digital revolution. Consumers will be able to turn images from a digital camera, CD, floppy disk, print or negative into large scale versions of their images within an hour, at a considerably lower price than traditional photographic enlargements solutions currently on the market.

 

* As of September 2002

[yuri_huta]

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,4149,528206,00.asp

 

Canon Lets the Digital Camera Out of the Bag

September 11, 2002

By Cade Metz

 

Update: The 300V SLR camera mentioned below was described in our original posting of this story as a

"digital" camera. It is not. We apologize for any confusion this many have caused.

 

The press release was only on the Web for half an hour, but that was enough to let the cat out of the bag.

Yesterday, on its European site, Canon accidentally posted a press release announcing a significant addition

to its line of digital SLR cameras�the EOS 1Ds, a model that will offer higher resolution than any

professional camera on the market. The release, dated September 24, wasn't supposed to reach the Web

until just before the Photokina tradeshow, where the camera will be officially unveiled.

 

Canon won't discuss the camera at length, but it has acknowledged that the release, though prematurely

posted, was accurate. "We are confirming that all the information in the release concerning the product was

correct and that we will introduce it at the Photokina show," says Chuck Westfall, assistant director of

Canon's Technical Information Department. "But we will not divulge any details about the product�beyond

what was said in the release�at this point." Photokina, the largest photography trade show in the world, will

be held in Cologne, Germany from September 25 through September 30.

 

In addition to offering a resolution of 11.1 million pixels�today's leading digital SLRs afford half as many

pixels�the EOS 1Ds will, according to industry sources, accommodate existing 35mm lenses without a

change in effective focal length. The camera will likely sell for around $6,000.

 

The release mentioned a new film-based SLR known as the EOS 300V, also due for unveiling at Photokina..

According to Westfall, this model is identical to the Canon Rebel Ti, which was announced in the States on

August 27. Canon expects that this camera, likely to be priced at an astoundingly low $1000, will "become

the world's number-one selling SLR camera."

 

Yesterday, before Canon realized its mistake, Digital Focus, a small digital photography studio in the suburbs

of Chicago, managed to grab the premature press release.

 

Copyright © 2002 Ziff Davis Media Inc. All Rights Reserved.

[andrew_schank]

So when this beast hits the market, are all the folks who swore they were completely happy with their last year's cutting edge digital SLR's still feel that way? I think its about the worst possible time to buy a digital slr unless you absolutely have to have one for your specific type of job. The improvements happening within only a 12 month period of time are so significant, that it looks like within a few years, the total fantasy digital cameras we talked about here only a couple of years ago will actually be on the market and affordable.

[bobatkins]

Well it's certainly going to piss off anyone who just put down $5500 for an EOS-1D!

 

I still don't see any real reason to archive this thread. Form the nature shooters viewpoint the only news is that you can now (well, sometime in the next 6 months or so) shoot true wideangle with digital. It remains to be seen if current lenses and the CMOS sensor Canon have used will suffer from any falloff in image quality due to the structure (well depth) of the sensor.

 

Of course I'm expecting howls of complaints from users who want their 300mm lenses to work like 480mm lenses as they did with the D60, and who really don't understand what's going on!!

 

I guess the big news is that a $6000 digital camera can probably now yield images every bit as good as those from a $200 Rebel.

[dick_ginkowski]

Great response, Bob -- especially the first paragraph!

 

As for me, I am keeping the D60 and backup D30 although I see this as an opportunity to see what the future brings. I *like* my 1.6x for wildlife shots. I suspect coming around the corner will be an EOS3 digital replacement and that could be the model I would consider adding.

[bobatkins]

Canon usually "trickle up", i.e. put good stuff in a prosumer body before moving it to the "1" series. In this case there may be some "trickle down" to a lesser (cheaper) body.

 

I think Canon should have been working on a digital Rebel at a price point under $1000. It would be a real killer in the marketplace. Even at 3-4 MP it would sell. If they leave it much longer either someone else will jump in and/or 3MP won't be enough to generate sales.

[dick_ginkowski]

Bob raises a good point. Really, all Canon would need to do is keep cranking out D30s and price them at $1000 firm.

[Two23]

Turns out that the new camera being sold for $1,000 is a FILM camera, not a digital. The original press release was poorly worded.

 

 

Kent in SD

[bobatkins]

Indeed. My point was that it SHOULD have been a digital camera! The EOS 300v is just another Rebel which will probably sell for around $200. An equivalent 3MP digital SLR body for $1000 would have been a real breakthough and would bring a lot more people into the (Canon) digital SLR world.

[richard_christie]

Bob, I'd like to think Canon would go for economy of scale on the 6MP D-60 sensor and put it in an entry-level EOS DSLR -- otherwise people will buy compact digicams unless they must have telephoto lenses. I'd also expect a better constructed body than the 300v for US$1000, like that of the EOS IX APS body ... wasn't there a rumour to that effect some time ago? People might argue that would take too much of the market away from the D-60, but if that's what the people demand... On the other hand, I'm still reluctant to buy a DSLR that uses less than half of the 35mm imaging area... for psychological reasons, please pump it up to a 1.4x crop factor Canon!

[bobatkins]

Since Canon can't make D60s fast enough to keepup with demand, they'd be crazy to compete with themselves. If nobody was buying them then maybe a cheaper version would be on the cards, but since people have been paying $500 over list price to get them, we won't see a low cost digital SLR until "digital fever" starts to break and the camera makers have to go after the lower end market.

[p_l_jensen]

It is not that manufacturers cannot keep up with demand. Manufacturing of digital cameras are made on the "on demand" basis. Some burned themselves badly on the first generation of digital camera when many ended up sitting on large unsold inventories. Digital cameras, and particularly digital slr's, are not made for stock, but basically on order. Hence, manufacturers would rather be slightly behind the demand curve than in front of it. Hence, price drops may happen quickly as this isn't really a case of being unable to meet demand.

[bobatkins]

Perhaps I should have said "unwilling to meet the demand". I suppose a product gets hyped up and demand increases if supply is controlled. It also keeps prices high and maximizes retailer profit. After all, there is ZERO incentive right now for anyone to discount D60s. In fact a number of retailers are charging up to $500 OVER list price for them. The retailers must be very happy with the situation. I presume Canon are smart enough and did enough market research to know how many D60s they could sell initially.

 

I can see why they would not want to build up huge stocks of a product that probably only has a 12-18 month life before being replaced by the next model.