Newbies and Pros ... let's get it together!

[mitch_w1]

<p>Slightly off topic but I too come here when I'm looking for meaningful dialogue, critique and information. The regulars here give an amazing amount of themselves. If I want petty arguments and immaturity there are a couple other well-known forums that more than fill that need (and I admit are fun to look at when in need of some entertainment). In general this particular forum takes the high road, which I appreciate. Hoping it stays that way.</p>

[cenelsonfoto]

<p>Marc, I'd shoot second (or third) behind you for travel expenses alone, meaning a cheapo flight and a ride to location. Meaning: I'd love to work with/for you one of these days. Contact me if you ever think it could happen.</p>

[cenelsonfoto]

<p>And to address the point of discussion: Yes, more folks helping folks. Attitudes like Marc's are healthy and positive and lead to strong ties, community, learning, growth.</p>

<p>I've had a helluva time here in NW Arkansas as there is little opportunity to shoot second and even less (it seems) chance to engage other pros or those aspiring-to-be. While I'm fully-capable of shooting my own gigs, I have to admit I find the idea of shooting second or otherwise assisting to be of infinite value at this point in my career and wish more opportunity existed.</p>

<p>Money is important, but it isn't everything, and my future value as a first improves with every second/assisting gig I can land. So far, slim pickings, and I'm beginning to think I need to just bite the bullet for push forward solo, else, leave this fly-over region and move to a better market where I can be of good use to seasoned pros and continue to develop my chops.</p>

[William Michael]

<p><strong><em>"I am here to learn not to fight, I have had enough of that in my lifetime." . . .</em></strong><br>

and ensure you keep that Butterfly Technique up to par, Dick, the water is very therapeutic.<br>

Merry Christmas,<br>

WW<br>

<br>

Crikey! my shoulder hurts, I must be getting too old for this s . . . :)</p>

<p > </p>

 

[DickArnold]

<p>Hey, WW, I swam in the New England Masters at Boston U. last weekend among some 500 swimmers. I got stuck, because of my age, doing the 50M fly in the IM relay. No one else wanted that leg. I have to say, I acquitted myself very well. Water is soothing and all my aches and pains go away in the pool. Swam a couple of thousand meters last night. 1200 of that was six 200 IMs. Merry Xmas WW. </p>

[senor_crocodrillo]

<p>I call like it is. If you can't handle the truth about your own hypocrisy then you shouldn't read my posts. Not paying assistants, no matter what their experience, encourages the degradation of professional photography, monetarily and culturally. If you want to be a professional or own a business, then act like one. <strong>Like any other business, pay your employees.</strong> Read my posts again and you'll see that this has never been about how I value my time. It's about how I value the time of our future professionals. Get your act(s) together.</p>

<p>Need some examples of people being paid for their training time? My cousin was recently hired by a pharmaceutical company as a rep. Did they ask him to work for free until he was trained? No, they paid him to study at home for three weeks. My wife's company pays for her to take classes in her field. Seems to me that if you're being specific enough to train someone, " to shoot the wedding in the way I see it," they should be paid for it.</p>

[katrin_d.]

<p>Marc, WW., Dick and anybody else who took the time to see both sides of the coin and posted well written and well thought out responses without resorting to personal insults/derogatory comments: a tremendous thank you for your contributions to the art of photography and this forum!<br>

I think of it this way: if I had the chance to work with somebody whose work I admired (Bert Stern comes to mind), somebody to learn the tricks of the trade from ... it would be an honor and I'd be more than happy to pay <em><strong>them</strong> </em> for the experience and the opportunity.<br>

We can all agree to disagree but could possibly attempt to do so in a civil manner - which is what I believe the point of this thread was.</p>

[fotografz]

<p>The truth? Hmmm? </p>

<p>A Pharmaceutical Corporation is hardly a solo photographer just eking out a decent living. Your wife works for a company, not a solo, mostly seasonal sub-contractor.</p>

<p>Fact is, many big companies have cut back on much of this activity due to the horrible economy ... the net result is that new people now don't have any chance. I live in Michigan ... of all the people unemployed in the United States, about 50% of them are in Michigan. People here are cutting wedding expenses to the bone. The alternative to training someone for a cut of the reduced income is to not take on anyone at all. I personally have chosen to continue with an assistant and accept the reduced income. But my kids are already through college, and my wife works in marketing. So far it works ... but if things got worse, I just don't know ...</p>

<p>Back to some more constructive info ...</p>

<p>Mitch, yes, I pass some work to Noel when it is clear the client can't afford my services. She has done Senior work and some engagement assignments that way. Likewise, if someone inquires about a wedding Noel will refer them to my website ... unless it's a small budget. When Noel does family portraits or newborn work it brings that client into our collective sphere of influence ... so if some family member or friend of that client is getting married we may have a shot at it. It's just a form of networking. When Noel shoots second for me she's free to post pics on her Facebook page and Blog ... in return she always mentions it was work done for Fotografz.</p>

<p> </p>

[sd_woods]

<p>One last thing: where's Nadine?</p>

[picturesque]

<p>SD--I'm here.</p>

[William Michael]

<p>I call it as it is, also.<br /><br />I received three unsolicited CV's last month. Two were Photography related; one was related to my other business. In my other business we have downsized in July '09, letting two casual employees go.<br /><br />We have no positions to fill, in either enterprise we own. We are all working harder and longer for the same pay. <br /><br />I told these facts to the three, seemingly eager young prospects: two just left with a shrug of the shoulder – one very politely extended the conversation, inviting me for a coffee. I accepted. She was an ex-student of an High School with which I had previously been associated – I did not know that when she first arrived, it came out over coffee. She mentioned my previous teaching and my workshops . . . <br /><br />Long story short: she talked me into accepting her time (free) to help me out on some gigs I will be doing over Christmas <em>just so she can get some Practical Hours, some Portfolio shots with Studio Name on her CV. </em><br /><br />So that’s the real world, that’s the day to day human interaction on the ground floor.<br /><br />And note this mine is a Private Company with two different two income streams and just fewer than 15 employees – <br /><br />MOST WEDDING PHOTOGRAPHY BUSINESSES are a <strong><em>single sole trader – ONE Owner/employee</em></strong>, and not the shelter of Insurance and other associated benefits a Private Company provides, which makes it easier (and safer) to take on “staff” for a few hours here and there . . .<br /><br />What should I have said to this young woman? Do I do say: “No way, I will not allow you the opportunity learning something for a few hours of your time?” . . . I think not. <br /><br />Am I obligated to say: “Oh I respect that you want to give your time to do these charity gigs with me, but I could not stand for that, it is too demeaning for you and the “Profession” of Photography . . . I cannot stand for that, romp up and help me out for a three hours – we might only use 35% of your output and I will arrive 1 hour before I normally would to ensure you are good to go and I will give the lowdown on the logistics that will take another 30 minutes extra for me, and by the way I will pay you $115 an hour, even though I have did not employ my second Photographer, (who has been with me for about 8 years) on the last two Weddings I did, because on the Packages those two B&G chose, to have two Photographers, would have resulted in a net-loss for me . . .<br /><br />Get real. <br /><br />That’s the real world of small business, and most Wedding Photographers are a small business – I think mine is a just a little bigger, and a bit more diverse than most. <br /><br />I just call it as I see it, but I actually do work in it, each day, and have done so for a while. <br /><br />Comparing a newbie Photographer asking for an opportunity to learn some to the ropes as an “helper” to the training that a Large Pharmaceutical Company would provide to a (most likely <strong><em>indentured)</em></strong> employee is ridiculous, in the extreme. <br /><br />WW</p>

<p> </p>

[William Michael]

<p>No one ever wants the 'fly leg - never tell them you can swim 'fly . . . that's the trick, unless of course there is a beer or two in it after the meet - then remember the 'fly leg is the one which always puts the IM team out in front . . . and the 'fly swimmer always needs the most beers . . . </p>

<p>WW<br>

</p>

<p >(Hey it's Christmas - I hope I am allowed a small off topic comment or two - it kinda lightens the load a bit, because for "let's get to gether and have a gab feast topic" . . . some folk seem to want to tear it all apart) </p>

 

[DickArnold]

<p>WW. They all know I can swim the fly. I can't get away with anything. In masters they handicap by the total age of the relay team. I am very popular because I am the oldest guy they know who can swim the fly. After all I practice with them. I hold a lot of club age group records because very few have ever swum in my rarified age group. They didn't live that long. WW it is always a pleasure to deal with a gentleman. BTW I ordered a pair of technical jammers tonight. I think they are the only thing that will be legal next year. My Xmas present to myself. Cheers for the holiday. </p>

[fotografz]

<p>Folks with less experience ... try forwarding some ideas here on how to increase your value to someone besides working for free. Don't be shy ... and ignore the biting comments if any come ... can't learn without making some mistakes or false starts. Getting started doing this type of thinking is the hardest part ... once the ball is rolling, it gains momentum.</p>

<p>When I started in advertising I read a quote from a very famous ad agency "personality" ... one of the Guru's ... he said ... "Creative people are like baby birds waiting for Mom to stuff a worm down their throats". Well this cheesed me off no end, and I approached my career with the notion of proving him dead wrong. I innovated ideas for my employers to make more from what they already had ... some were rejected, but I learned from those flops and kept at it. Suffice it to say it paid off.</p>

<p>Assess your strengths and weaknesses ... for example, Noel is a young mother with 2 little ones. She has a real tangible maternal connection for newborn photography and it shows in her work at which she excels ... that in turn has lead to family portraits. As a Mom, she networks with other moms which leads to more work. All of this effort has impacted Noel's over-all photographic skills and pointed up things she wants to improve ... which is where I can help. I fact, we are meeting next week to do exactly that. In that case, I'm the one who will be "working" for free ... LOL! </p>

<p> </p>

[senor_crocodrillo]

<p>If you're struggling, have you ever stopped to think why you're barely making a living? <br /><br />Maybe a big part of it is that you've helped perpetuate the downward spiral of rates you complain about. Another photographer at a wedding should translate into extra cost to who is paying, no? Another assistant should cost more money, no? I don't care if your working in Michigan, NYC, or overseas, extra services cost money. When you provide these services to Clients at no additional cost, you create unrealistic financial expectations not only for your client, but to anyone looking for a photographer. Expectations that aren't likely to go away and that can't reasonably continue to be met by the industry and that I'm certain aren't a part of those precious, "business plans" that you're always hankering on about to newbies on this forum. You're not just hurting yourself, but anyone else trying to earn a decent rate. <br>

<br />In addition, when you ask others to work for free, you lose any legal right to the images they create. Potentially creating scenarios like this: http://www.photo.net/wedding-photography-forum/00VAWz<br />Think you can fight it in court? You can't, at least not in NY, because they aren't an employee until you pay them. There is no work-for-hire contract if they don't get paid. I'd be willing to bet that other states are the same. But who cares, right? There are lots of newbies wanting to get into the business ( 3 CVs in a month!), so why not take advantage of their eagerness to learn by working them for free? Keep them off the books so your disability and liability insurance doesn't go up... </p>

<p>My wife and cousin work for businesses. Businesses that pay their employees. It doesn't have to be any more complicated than this: <strong>Businesses pay their employees. You own a business. You should pay your employees.</strong> </p>

<p> </p>

[fotografz]

<p>Senor, we get it. We aren't thick sculled. You made your point and nothing's changed. Some don't agree. Get it?</p>

<p>BTW, this thread IS NOT about wether people are paid correctly in your opinion.</p>

<p>You have derailed an honest attempt to get an exchange of ideas going between people at different levels of experience and skill so you can to go on-and-on about your own agenda ... an agenda that added absolutely nothing to any collective knowledge base at either end of the spectrum, and serves to further stir the pot rather than build accord.</p>

<p>Why not just start your own thread rather than hijacking this one?</p>

<p> </p>

[daverhaas]

<p>I have a couple of people that I regularly use as assistants and 2nds. And yes I pay them. </p>

<p>I have had brides specifically tell me that they didn't want 2nd's due to the additional expense associated with it. Not a problem, it's their wedding - not mine.</p>

<p>But if the bride pays and wants a second - I've got them lined up and ready to go.</p>

<p> </p>

[senor_crocodrillo]

<p>Honest? I think it's dishonest and unethical not to bring these issues up, especially when educating anyone new to the profession. An educated photographer is your best competition.</p>

<p>Marc, I didn't address any issue that wasn't in your own open-ended words:</p>

<p><strong><em>To the other established pros out there </em></strong><em>... think about what's going on in this business. A bunch of inexperienced people are grabbing gigs, often without any experience ... which people keep grousing about. We can counter that by taking on people with potential, guide them, and then use them for gigs we can't afford to do ourselves, or are already booked for ... or to expand out sphere of influence.</em></p>

[William Michael]

<p ><strong ><em >"There are lots of newbies wanting to get into the business ( 3 CVs in a month!), so why not take advantage of their eagerness to learn by working them for free? Keep them off the books so your disability and liability insurance doesn't go up... "</em></strong></p>

<p > </p>

<p >FWIW, but mostly to document as fact for this archival record: in each case of "Work Experience" and in the case of someone wanting to spend time with me to learn on the job - these folk ARE covered under our Worker's Compensation Act. That is what I alluded to by it being easier for a Private Company allowing these people access to some time at real experience, than what it would be for a Sole Trader. Legal requirements varying across the globe.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >I think also a clear line has to be drawn between <em >those folk who ask to come along for a few hours to get their feet wet, and have very little if no experience and a Second Photographer or Photograph's Assistant.</em> </p>

<p > </p>

<p >There is a vast difference.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >Also, whilst I appreciate the kind-hearted intent to offer assistance and suggestions apropos the mechanisms a business might use to battle through this global economic downturn, I will, with respect decline the advice . . . and: it is off this topic, anyway.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >***</p>

<p > </p>

<p >More on the topic is assessing the "strengths and weakness" one has. </p>

<p > </p>

<p >Often a sheet of blank paper and a list is a good way to begin. But as well as listing strengths and weaknesses list also all connections and associations.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >People from all walks of life get Married and most want Photography. </p>

<p > </p>

<p >At College I initially did a two year Course - during the second year of that Course I began with an established W&P studio. But for the first year I was shooting Football Games on speculation for the local Newspaper . . . it was not until a couple of years later that I realized that my presence on the football field each week established me as "a photographer" and that I could leverage that by constantly mentioning I worked for a Wedding & Portrait studio also . . . that might appear so obvious to many reading this now, but it is not necessarily obvious for the novice.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >So I suggest that a list comprising all your associations is a good idea. </p>

<p > </p>

<p >Like the Mother who is now skilled at Child Portraiture, your entre to Wedding Photography might come through being creative enough to take the Widget Photos at the Light Engineering Shop where your work - or where your Husband works. </p>

<p > </p>

<p >Think laterally, start with a blank sheet and just make a list and then work backwards and ask how each of theses associations could lead you to your goal of meeting with a Photographer or doing Wedding Photography, in some manner or another . . .</p>

<p > </p>

<p >WW </p>

<p > </p>

<p > </p>

<p > </p>

 

[fotografz]

<p>Let's bring some clarity to this issue that has come to dominate this thread. </p>

<p>Assistants and second shooters are usually NOT employees unless they enter into an actual employment contract like with a big studio. Instead, they are independent sub-contractors. If they were "employees" there would be a whole other set of requirements "by law". </p>

<p>Senor is confusing the two.</p>

<p>Subcontractors are free to accept or deny any job, they are free to work for other people or for themselves ... They decide the threshold of payment they are willing to work for or not. If they decide to work for free to gain experience that is their decision.</p>

<p>The photographer hiring a subcontractor is free to set conditions on the business relationship, and the subcontractor is free to take it or leave it. </p>

<p>I do not subscribe to the notion of non-payment, but fully grasp where some others would take on an assistant for no-pay depending on how much the person has to learn before actually contributing to the photographer's business.</p>

<p>Which circles back around to the idea of less experienced people assessing their abilities and focusing on how they can be of value to an established photographer ... which was the intent of this thread in the first place.</p>

<p> </p>

 

<p> </p>

[fotografz]

<p>Excellent suggestions William!</p>

[William Michael]

<p><strong><em>"I do not subscribe to the notion of non-payment, but fully grasp where some others would take on an assistant for no-pay depending on how much the person has to learn before actually contributing to the photographer's business."</em></strong></p>

<p>Personally, over the years of reading Photonet, (since about 2000) I have taken a wealth of information and adapted it to my local situation. Photo.net has been very useful to the business reforming I have accomplished over the past 8 years.</p>

<p>Because Photonet is USA centric, often I feel I am a viewer looking in on it. That for me has advantage. In many areas the USA's market has been a trend setter for my market, and as I have been capable of picking up on the nuances of styles, trends and customer's "wants" in cities such as NY, Chicago, LA and San Francisco, I feel I have often been one step ahead here, whilst also adapting these nuances to my local market and our (the Studio's) base clientele.</p>

<p>There are many good minds here at Photonet, it behoves all those who wish to learn and improve to read . . . and to read carefully.</p>

<p>Read beyond the text . . . and read the ideas.</p>

<p>Embrace the institutions and the cultures and the ways of other systems; and think how they might be adapted to your own needs and to your own situations . . .</p>

<p>There are many great ideas to be found.</p>

<p>"Work Experience" was the brainchild of a Public Educator. A man who saw a need to better equip School Leavers with Practical input and experience well before they decide on College or University course and subjects. It is fully integrated onto most of the Schools here and has the support of many large and small businesses: and at a real cost to the businesses involved.</p>

<p>But I think most businesses which take on a Work Experience Student for four, six or eight weeks, view it as "giving back" to the local community. We do and that’s why we are involved.<br>

<br />WW</p>

[senor_crocodrillo]

<p>Marc, I'm not confusing anything. My arguments work for both employees and independent contractors. As you can see, it's an issue that I'm very passionate about. I won't continue to beat you over the head about it... </p>

<p>As a separate issue... Most individuals under the employ of a photographer are not independent contractors, even if the industry continues to treat them so. It can get a bit cloudy, but the IRS has guidelines and laws vary from state to state. But in general, most assistants and second-shooters don't qualify as independent contractors. </p>

<p>I have a lot of experience in this area, part of it including a close encounter of the third kind with the IRS. Another part involving letters from the state, who were more interested in employee classification for their workers' comp. laws. I pay assistants, tech.s, and 2nd shooters by using a payroll company, which takes care of all the proper withholding, etc. If you or anyone else would like to know more about why your newbies and seasoned shooters are probably classified as employees, I can post more. </p>

<p>I don't hire anyone without a sense of humor or that doesn't have a driver's license. They need to be interesting. They need to have a calm personality. They need a good set of hands and a strong enough back. For weddings, they need to keep a neat enough appearance and dress accordingly. </p>

[mitch_w1]

<p>Hi Senor. I'm relatively new to this forum so I haven't really learned the personalities here and who is a regular, valuable contributor and who is, well, not. I have to say your earlier posts in this thread had me thinking you were in the latter group. Not so much because of the subject matter but because of the delivery. I should have been cheering you on because you clearly have the up and coming photographer as well as the industry in your best interest. But the antagonistic, confrontational and condescending tone of your posts immediately had me labeling you as one of those trolls you always see stirring stuff up on the other forums. So it was hard to get past that abrasiveness to see your message and that you were indeed passionate about this issue.<br /> I almost don't believe the above post is by the same person as the previous posts because it is completely opposite in tone, respect and emotion. And because of that it was infinitely more thought provoking for me. <br /> Obviously I am not suggesting you change just because I respond to 'Senor A' more than 'Senor B.' In fact now that I realize that there is a 'Senor A' I think I will be more able to keep an open mind to 'Senor B' (if that makes sense).<br /> Of course this is just my own unsolicited personal take and opinion. And who am I but another anonymous person on the internet! Thanks for your passion on this important subject. Happy holidays to you, Senor.</p>

[fotografz]

<p>My advice to anyone hiring "freelancers" is to consult your CPA, and not to rely on internet banter regardless of tone, manner, or level of passion.</p>

<p>THIS THREAD IS ABOUT HELPING PEOPLE OF VARIOUS LEVELS ASSIST ONE ANOTHER TO THEIR MUTUAL BENEFIT. NOT WHO, WHEN OR HOW ONE GETS PAID (which is better discussed with financial council in your location).</p>

<p>But as usual, an off topic poster has rudely hijacked and dominated the thread and effectively killed any tenuous dialog we may have been able to build here. I have received more private e-mails exchanging on-topic ideas than has been posted on this thread where many could benefit from it. Unfortunate.</p>

<p>Thanks Senor.</p>

<p> </p>