Please help me choose a 6x6 camera

[tony_lockerbie]

<p>Most of the unusual named Japanese TLR's are a bit suspect, quality wise, interesting sure, but not everyday users. The Yashicas tend to have problems with transport, Minoltas are better but tend to be expensive, and the Mamiyas are excellent but very heavy and bulky.<br>

Hasselblad bodies are quite cheap these days, especially the ELM's, but the lenses will set you back a lot...there is the problem.<br>

Has to be a Rolleiflex then, 3.5's, the T's with the Tessar lens, or a late model Rolleicord with the Xenar lens. These cameras are never all that cheap, but for a good reason. Buy the best one you can afford and you will never look back.</p>

[chris_waller]

<p>Mamiya TLR - C3, C220 or C330. They're plain, straightforward and robust cameras.</p>

[rashed]

<p>Well with all of the cameras I have from the large format to the latest D3X I always wanted the C330 Mamiya which I have recently bought from adorama, this TLR camera with its bellows and interchangeable lenses and with its 120/220 FILM 6X6 format is very outstanding for portrait studio work and street work also.<br>

The camera I bought on D condition for very reasnoable price and it has used lenses also avilable with adorama, B&H or on ebay also for good prices, makes this camera one of its kind.</p>

 

[paulh]

<p>If you like TLRs, then the Mamiya 220/330 would be a good choice. You'll get a very robust camera with the advantage (for a TLR) or interchangeable lenses. If you think you'll only need one lens, maybe a Rolleiflex.</p>

<p>For a system camera, the Bronica SQ series are great value. Not only are the bodies well priced, but so are the lenses and other accessories.</p>

[podstawek]

<p>Dear all,<br /> As much as I have realized that photo.net is a very good source of knowledge and experience, I would have never expected such rich and helpful response. Thank you all so much!<br /> I made a quick summary of your recommendations:<br /> <strong>TLRs</strong><br /> Yashicamat 124 / 124 G -- I understand there is a problem with the discontinued battery, but I can use an external meter <br /> Mamiya C33 / C330 f/s -- I understand there is not much difference between these apart from weight and small design differences<br /> Rolleiflex, preferably newer models with 2.8 lens<br /> Rolleicord<br /> Vigtlander Bessa III 667 -- unfortunately too expensive<br /> Minolta Autocord<br /> <strong>SLRs</strong><br /> Bronica SQ<br /> Mamiya RB67 (but that's 6x7 as I understand...)<br /> Hasselblad, maybe something could be found below $ 800 (with an 80 mm Zeiss lens), but this is still a bit more than I wanted to spend initially -- will have to rethink this<br /> Kiev 88 (modified)<br /> Rolleiflex SL66 -- looks very nice, but aren't the prices more or less the same as for Hasselblad?</p>

<p>I have some questions to the responders, too. Please excuse my ignorance, I may be asking for very simple or obvious things, but I'm really new to medium format, and many things just don't seem to be as obvious as they have been to me in 35 mm film photography:</p>

<p><strong>Mike</strong>, you are saying that Yashicas do not focus close enough for tight portraits. Or is it about all TLRs? Can the problem be solved by using a longer "portrait" lens, e.g. 135mm? Would I be able to fill the frame better then?<br /> <strong>Bruce</strong>, why did you discontinue using your Yashicas and Mamiyas? Was there anything about them you particuarly did not like?<br /> <strong>Frank</strong>, what is a Maxwell screen and why should it be put in by Harry Fleenor?<br /> <strong>Scott</strong>, thanks for listing so many TLR names that I have never even heard of! Unfortunately many of them don't even show up on eBay, and I think I will have to use eBay, because otherwise it is often hard to get something shipped to my country... also, the prices on eBay seem to be 10x your "$20 in decent condition". Where does such discrepancy come from?<br /> <strong>Michael, Stephen</strong>, where did you find these prices for Hasselblad gear (Michael: body + lens, Stephen: body + 2 lenses)? As I said, I'm stuck with eBay, but if the sources you are quoting ship to Poland, I'd be happy to go there...<br /> <strong>Tim</strong>, you are saying that the meter in your Yashica MAT124g s dead, but was it useful in the first place when it was still alive? Was it precise enough?<br /> <strong>John Wiegerink</strong>, your answer pretty much summarizes everything I'm feeling now: I think I will either go for C33 / C330 or for Hasselblad if I can find it in a reasonable price (which I haven't so far). Thanks for the detailed answer!<br /> <strong>Mr Burke</strong>, thank you so much for your very technical and in-depth response. I think I may summarize it as follows: as long as the lens is of _reasonable_ quality, I should go for it and not worry about much more expensive, higher-resolution lenses, as there will be no visible difference even with the negative enlarged to the extremes.<br /> <strong>John Crowe</strong>, I just can't afford keeping both the 5D system and an MF. Luckily, I am not a pro, and don't make my living on photography, so whatever I'm doing, is just for my self-fulfillment... Therefore, I will be happy to take much fewer pictures than I have with my 5D, but take much more care when taking each inpidual photograph. I still need to buy a simple point-and-shoot, though, because it's needed for a quick pic here and there.</p>

<p>All in all, I think I'm going for either Mamiya C33/330, or a Hasselblad if I can find it in the prices you quoted. But the latter decision would still need a lot of thinking, as other lenses and accessories are also quite expensive...</p>

<p>Once again, thank you all very much for your help!</p>

 

[rashed]

<p>My friend <a href="http://www.photo.net/photodb/user?user_id=620661">John Crowe</a>, when I bought my C330 recently from adorama it was as D condition camera, when I received it here, the back cover bottom portion seal metrials was melted, I had to remove it compeletly and clean its place in order to prevent it from damaging my film.<br>

I looked carefully through the seal place and did not look to me as it could easilly leak light into the camera, but this is how I looked it , I do not know for sure if I could use this camera with another roll of film without the seal or not?<br>

If you an idea about this matter , I will approcaite your input.</p>

<p>Thank you and wishing you all of the best.</p>

[hakon_soreide]

<p>I owned a Kowa 6MM 6x6 SLR several years ago that I thought was brilliant. The camera is solid, the lenses are top notch with centre sharpness having rivalled Hasselblad's in some tests I've seen, though of course I had to do some DIY camera repair to change the old mirror baffle material and dismantle and clean a few ancient lenses, but that was really fun and enjoyable, and it wasn't too expensive overall.</p>

[John Crowe]

<p>Rashad: I no longer have my C330 to refer to. I suspect that if the light seal was there that it is necessary. You can probably find some kind of kit online or at Adorama to replace it.</p>

[john_wiegerink1]

<p>Adam,<br>

I looked at some of your work and feel that the C22/C220 or C33/C330 would be ideal for your type of photography. I think the best "bang for the buck(dollar/EUR) would be the C33 as they sell very cheap here with the standard 80mm lens. I'd then pick up a 135mm for "head and shoulder portraits". The nice thing about the C-series Mamiya cameras is the fact that you can actually get very tight head shots with the standard 80mm lens due to the ability of bellows extension. Something you can't do with any other TLR. I don't know where you will buy from, but I have always had good luck with KEH and tend to buy there BGN (bargain) or even UG (ugly) items if I want something that works and don't care about looks. KEH's BGN is like most places "excellent" rating. Russ, and a few others, might not agree on KEH, but thousands of people do. They are very conservative on there ratings. You can watch the BIG auction site also as it will be a cheap place to buy, but check the seller rating and make sure you have return privileges. If you are selling your 5D you should have more than enough for a very good C33/C330 outfit and those 2 1/4 square negs or slides are something to see.</p>

[timwitt]

<p>Adam,<br>

The meter in my 124G was dead when I got it and I haven't taken the time to open it up to see what's wrong with the meter. Don't let the extinct mercury battery stop you, there are batteries that work in the place of PX625's as well as minor circuit mods so you can use longer lasting batteries like silver oxide. A search will produce many hits on it. <a href="http://rick_oleson.tripod.com/index-111.html">http://rick_oleson.tripod.com/index-111.html</a> is one.<br>

I metered with my SLR but I would like to have a handheld meter.<br>

The Rolleiflex Automat doesn't even have a meter.</p>

[sebastianmoran]

<p>Hmm... MF gear at low prices... It's magnetic !!<br>

I bought a Yashica-MAT in mint condition for $100. Non-mercury batteries ARE for sale... or just use a handheld meter. <br>

Then, emboldened by this success, I bought a Mamiya C-220 for $250 in great shape w/ 80mm. I chose the 220 because I think there are fewer things to go wrong (no shutter cocking mechanism).<br>

Both of these are beautiful cameras, real cameras, that can produce excellent images.<br>

A small reality note: In my testing so far, if you're going to bring your images into the digital realm, it will take an excellent scan of 6x6 to produce a better image than a dSLR. </p>

[lockett_yee1]

<p>Adam,</p>

<p>It has been said time and time again that the Bronica SQ system is a "poor man's Hasselblad". If I were to make a recommendation, I would personally prefer the Bronica SQ.</p>

[paul_reklaitis]

<p>Don't forget resale value. Even if you buy a good quality / good name brand camera, and shoot it for a year - you will surely get most of your money back if you decide to re-sell it on ebay. So stick with good names like Mamiya or Hasselblad. (C330 and 500c/m are amazing!) <br>

If you decide you want a lesser know brand like Yashica, get the latest and best quality (Yashica G) It's worth it to spend a few more dollars for a better quality camera, so you lessen the risk of repair bills, plus reselling it is much easier. Good Luck! </p>

 

[jonathan_maloney]

<p>I'm surprised no one has asked what is perhaps the simplest yet most important question which always defines the purchases we make:<br>

"what is your budget?"<br>

If you don't have one, set one. Because if you don't, there are a ton of people on here who have an extraordinary wealth of information at their fingertips suited for budgets from $25 all the way up to what you'd pay for a car.<br>

I'm shooting for these:<br>

under $100<br>

Look for an old Minolta, Yashica D, Lubitel (surprisingly good results - forget looking at Lomogr&&&y for best prices as usual)</p>

<p>under $300<br>

Mamiya C220, C33<br>

Rolleicord / Rolleiflex f3.5 - hey, you can always get lucky on ebay<br>

Yashica 124G (in my opinion this camera is waay overpriced for what it is, go with the Mamiya)</p>

<p>under $600<br>

Bronica sq-ai (hands down)</p>

<p>under $1000<br>

Hasselblad 500CM w/ 80mm Planar (I just bought this with a 120mm Makro-Planar off KEH for a tad under $1k - their BGN condition is a lie - its actually about the same as an EX+ you'd find off eBay!)<br>

<br /> Rolleiflex SL66 (awesome camera, I'd love to have one if I had a spare $700-800)</p>

[Ian Taylor]

<p>If I was after a 6x6 I'd go for a Mamiya 6, although they are a bit more than $1000 used.</p>

[jonathan_maloney]

<p>In case you are interested, I paid about $1600 for my Mamiya 6 w/ 50mm f4 and the 75mm f3.5 - but upon arrival it managed one roll before conking out - took it to the Mamiya repair agent here in Hong Kong and they repaired it for $150, which the seller promptly refunded - which I think made it quite a good deal!<br>

The only thing I don't like about the Mamiya 6 is the fact you can't get very close to your subject. Minimum focusing distance is 1m with both the 50mm / 75mm and I think 1.5m when you're using the 150mm - but I could be wrong on the last one. There is a close-up adapter / contraption for the 75mm but that just makes the camera ungainly. I would like to get one but I've read it turns the mobility of the camera into something of a joke.<br>

It is in many ways a perfect camera if you don't need to do any macro / close-up work and it gets far more usage than my 500CM. Plus, it only has 3 lenses in its lineup so any lens envy is rather limited! (thank god)</p>

 

[rustys pics]

<p>The 6x6 format is perfect in many ways...particularly for portraits. It sounds like you take your camera with you, and shoot spontaneously. In that case the Hasselblad may slow you down; it's heavy, you need to remember to pull the darkslide before shooting, and replace it when changing backs. The Hasselblad is much, much louder than a TLR. I imagine the bomb release on a Stuka was quieter! The filmbacks are not easy, nor quick to load in the field.<br>

I recommend a Rolleiflex TLR. Get one with the 80mm f2.8 Planar if you can find or afford it. Or get a clean Rolleiflex T with the nearly as good Tessar f3.5 lens. They are light weight, fast to operate, have bright finders for focus, load film easily, and the shutter is barely audible. <br>

FWIW I own both a Hasselblad 501c, and a Rolleiflex E2. I love both cameras, but for shooting on location I pick the Rollei 90% of the time. Yashica is a good camera, but remember it was copied from the Rollei. For some reason Yashica TLR cameras sell for nearly as much as equivalent Rollei models. That makes them overpriced IMHO.</p><div></div>

[lauren_macintosh]

<p>My simple Two cents: Save your money and get the Rolleiflex automat of Rollieflex-T, get the tessar Lens or if your got money to burn get Planar Lens:<br>

and to get info go to this web site <a href="http://antiquecameras.net/rolleiflex.html">http://antiquecameras.net/rolleiflex.html</a></p>

[mark_friefeld]

<p>Used Hasselbads can be found on KEH. You get an SLR and variety of lens. A Mamiya 330 TLR in less expensive and you have interchangable lens. Odess is realiable. Everything he sell he has checked.</p>

[alanbrowne]

<p>The MF I most regret not buying was an RB67 with 180mm f/4.5 (?) lens, extender and VF. Would have been a killer in the studio.<br>

However, I did buy a Hassy 500 C/M with an 80mm f/2.8 and 150 f/4. Eventually added a 120 f/4 Makro and I'm seeking a 40mm f/4 (There is one on e-bay closing in an hour or so that looks good for around $600). Great machine (added a Sekonic 558 and Nikon 9000ED. Eventually added an Epson 3800 printer).</p>

[bstinshoff]

<p>Someone else already mentioned the Lubitel. It's generally described as a toy camera but mine takes sharp pictures - not Hoga like at all. Probably not as sharp as a Rolleiflex or some of the other cameras previously mentioned, but it's a heck of lot cheaper - an important consideration if you're still unsure if you really want to use this type of camera. I got mine for around $20 on Ebay and still put a roll or two through it each year just for a change of pace. I've got a number of Lubital shots posted on my Flickr page if you're interested in the results I've gotten. The one drawback if you're doing portraits is that you have to adjust for parallex when shooting at close distances.</p>

[oistrakh]

<p>There have been a lot of suggestions on this thread, I think it comes down to how you operate as a photographer.</p>

<p>If hand-holdability is very important to you, then the TLR's and Mamiya 6 rangefinder will be your best option. You could theoretically handhold a Hasselblad or Bronica, but I don't think you will find it comfortable for long stretches at a time. Those cameras really were made to be put on a tripod.</p>

<p>If having a built-in meter is very important to you, then the Mamiya 6 rangefinder is your best bet. Almost all the other cameras listed here will require use of an additional prism finder to get a built-in meter. If you don't mind using a tripod, the prism finder can work well, but for handholding it will be impractical.</p>

<p>If having interchangeable backs is important, because you want to switch out film mid-roll, then you will want either a Hasselblad, Bronica, or equivalent camera. They can be found for decent prices used. No TLR or rangefinder will offer you this capability.</p>

<p>Personally, based on what you say you like to shoot and your budget, I would recommend the Mamiya TLRs. They are built very well with metal parts, they offer the flexibility of interchangeable lenses, they are not too heavy to walk around with (especially if you've been lugging around a 5D with multiple lenses), and the price is very reasonable. You can get a body plus three or four lenses for well under $1,000 pretty easily on eBay.</p>

[george_peng1]

<p>I have a Hasselblad 500 C/M and a Rolleiflex Automat circa '51 with 3.5 Tessar lens. I've finished testing out the Rollei after getting it a couple of months ago, and I think its quite impressive, especially stopped down. The Hasselblad is a Hasselblad - superb lenses, terrific output, and system flexibility. The Rollei is convenient in that it is self-enclosed and easy to lug around - and it was cheap - about $150, plus an original metal hood and the Rolleinar 2.</p>

<p>Neither can focus close enough without attachment for full-frame headshots. That said, to be honest, while the Rolleinar will get you close enough to do that, its uncomfortably close to the subject because of its relatively short focal length. The head-chest shot is a bit more comfortable at that length. But otherwise, the Rollei is a great option for somebody who doesn't want to make a large initial investment and can handle some of the inherent limitations of the camera.</p>

[john_liberty]

<p>A lot of people are recommending some expensive cameras here. Best to go cheap and see if a TLR is for you. They aren't for everyone, and it's taken me a while to get used to them. In the past few months I've bought a Rolleicord w/ Xenar lens and a Rolleicord III w/ uncoated Tessar for under $200 for the two of them on fleabay. That's the brand(s) I would recommend too.</p>

<p>But my MF folders are capable of superb results also, and if you get one that focuses by moving the entire lens assembly like a Welta and a few others do, they can be used for portraits. So that's my suggestion. Buy a nice 6x6 folder and a Rolleicord or Rolleiflex w/ a 3.5 Tesar or Xenar and try out both styles of shooting. Then sell the one you're not comfortable w/.</p>

<p>That's how it goes in theory anyway. If you're like a lot of us you'll end up keeping them both, which is fine, as there are times when one may be better suited to your day's shooting than the other.</p>

[patrick_stack]

<p>Adam -</p>

<p>Man, so many responses and SO much great input. I've had a number of the cameras mentioned in my collection over time, Autocord, Yashica 124G, Rolleiflex and Rolleicord, Hasselblad, etc. I can add very little new to what's been said, but here goes.</p>

<p>The Autocord and 124G were both quite acceptable performers imagewise, the Autocord being the better. But, even with extremely careful use and handling, they developed mechanical problems in a relatively short time. Input from the repair shop, "they're just not a Rollei, you can't expect the same robust build and parts quality."</p>

<p>Now, after having a total of nine Rollei's and currently three left, I can confidently relate that they are of superior image quality, long lasting, reliable and easily serviced for routine CLA's. In all honesty, with considerable use over many years with these Rollei's, I've NEVER experienced an actual parts failure. I like to do a complete cleaning and routine service about every 5 or so years, that keeps shutters timed well, iris blades clean and working freely, advance and counter systems working as they should.</p>

<p>I'm getting on in years so have thinned out much of the collection, now have a Rolleiflex E-2 with 3.5 Xenotar, Rolleicord Vb with 3.5 Xenar and Rolleiflex 4X4 with Xenar. The Xenotar I consider to be the best performer, but not by very much, the Xenar is perfectly acceptable and sells for a whole bunch less. An excellent Rolleiflex with Zeiss or Schneider optics will sell for upwards of a thousand dollars, to maybe closer to two thousand in collectable/mint condition. An excellent Rolleicord III, IV or V with Xenar lens will sell for well under $400, sometimes maybe even 150-250, and that's in really good shape.</p>

<p>I have a Hasselblad 500CM, 50-80-150 and 250 lenses, what can I say, I think it's among the best cameras that can be had. Superb optics and anvil like durability, but what a way to wound your checkbook or melt your credit card. I'm not suggesting you consider one, I just wanted to tell you that I consider the Rollei's with Zeiss and Schneider glass to be their equal. The only limitation is the fixed lenses, but maybe that wouldn't be a detriment to you.</p>

<p>I have zero Mamiya experience, but several friends do and relate nothing less than complete satisfaction. I second the 330 recommendation as a serious medium format system, if you would want to change lenses. Excellent optics, combined with great mechanical reliability in the hands of a careful user. Easy to find excellent maintenance shops, when routine service comes due.</p>

<p>Don't get in a rush, take the time to do some shopping and you'll find the right camera for you, at a good price. Best of luck in your search, and great success in your photography. Best regards.</p>

<p>Patrick </p>