First Medium Format

[paul_b._davis1]

<p>This is the usual story you've all heard before:</p>

<p>I'm going to school in a few weeks for a yearlong photography certificate at my local university. During the first quarter, we're required to work with film, so I now have to buy a film camera.</p>

<p>I have a fairly extensive collection of professional and semi-pro Canon EF equipment, and it's definitely crossed my mind that I could go out and pick up an EOS-3 or EOS-1v to satisfy the film requirement while maintaining compatibility with my huge investment in flashes, lenses, etc.</p>

<p>I think that this represents an interesting opportunity to branch out, however, and so I've started looking at medium format equipment. I'd say my top end budget is about $700.</p>

<p>I'm most interested in 6x6 and affordability, which has led me to the Bronica SQ-Ai. It seems to be fairly modular, and is billed as a similar experience to a Hasselblad without the cost and some of the long-term reliability.</p>

<p>I've also looked at Yashica TLRs and Mamiya TLRs, but I just don't have enough experience in MF here to make a well educated decision about where to go next.</p>

<p>So, a few questions:<br /> 1) What would you do? SQ-Ai, one of the TLRs (any in particular?), or just stick with the Canon stuff?<br /> 2) Will my flashes work with MF equipment? Only certain equipment? (I have 580 EX ii's with PC terminals and manual controls).<br /> 3) I see a person selling a Nikkor-P 75mm as an SQ-Ai lens, but everything I see online suggests this lens is for an earlier Bronica SLR. Are they cross compatible, or is this person confused?</p>

<p>Thanks so much--I look forward to a great conversation!</p>

[andylynn]

<p>Why not both? With careful Ebaying you can get an MF kit for under $500 and use the remaining to buy a Canon body. If you already have an investment in Canon equipment it would be a shame not use it.</p>

[sfcole]

<p>Paul,<br>

Yes, you may wish to verify that Nikkor-P with the seller. I'm pretty sure that Nikkors were only made for the S and later TC series. The SQ uses leaf shutter lenses, which the Nikkor-P is not, and I haven't seen the name Nikkor in reference to any SQ lenses.<br>

I think the Bronica SQ might be just what you want. You can find lots of used ones at KEH, and the lenses are cheap.<br>

I have the earlier S2 and a Mamiya 6, and I can guarantee you that the results you get with a 6x6 will make you want to give your Canon gear away.<br>

You can use your flash--I use a Pentax flash in the hotshoe of my Mamiya, and Vivitar 283s with both into the pc socket.</p>

<p>scott</p>

[paul_b._davis1]

<p>I just might do that, but, in the meantime, I might not be able to eBay carefully as I must have a rudimentary film setup by the end of next week, I'd say.</p>

<p>The Bronica (and a lot of other medium format) stuff seems to be readily available, so this has really come down to making a decision and acting on it.</p>

<p>-PBD</p>

[robert lee]

<p>It's not either/or - do both. Get a Canon A2/A2e/5 for around $50. They're all basically the same cameras. The A2/A2e was branded for North American sales; the EOS-5 elsewhere. This model is the best current value in Canon's AF film line.</p>

<p>The SQ-Ai is a fine camera, but I'm partial to the 6x7 format myself. The 6x7 gives the largest usable film area for common print sizes like 8x10. Take a look at the Mamiya RB-67 Pro-S. $300 buys a whole kit. The RB and RZ systems are arguably the finest MF cameras for use in the studio.</p>

<p>I think the kit of Canon EOS and Mamiya RB makes for a really nicely balanced film kit. Of course, it probably makes more sense to wait until class starts in case there are specific equipment requirements.</p>

[frank.schifano]

<p>I think you'd probably be better off picking up a film body that is already compatible with the lenses and accessories that you already have. But be careful there. If your existing equipment is digital, make sure that the lenses you already have will cover the full 24 x36 mm frame size of the film camera. Many lenses for digital SLR's do not provide adequate coverage for the full frame 35 mm format. I am not very familiar with the Canon line of lenses and accessories, so you'll need to do a bit of research to learn if what you have will work for you. While a lens designed for the smaller digital sensor may couple perfectly well with a film body electrically and mechanically, it will fail optically. When the first roll of film comes out with severe vignetting, you'll be wondering what happened.</p>

<p>When you've had a bit more time to do some research, then you can decide on a medium format camera. You may find that it will be unnecessary for the task at hand, and may even be a hindrance. Personally, I'm partial to the Mamiya C220 and C330 TLR cameras because they have interchangeable lenses. They are a bit heavier and bigger than other choices in the TLR world, but they deliver a lot more flexibility and they are quite sturdy.</p>

[sfcole]

<p>Frank,<br>

I can't see who a TLR would be more versatile than the SQ. What if he wants to do close-up work?<br>

Scott</p>

[paul_b._davis1]

<p>Always good advice, Frank. Fortunately, I'm all full-frame in my Canon equipment.</p>

<p>Now, Robert has made an interesting point: The Mamiya RB-67 Pro-S <em>does</em> appear to be a very sweet deal for my situation.</p>

<p>Are there any options for shooting 6x6 on this unit? Is it just a matter of using a 6x6 back? The viewfinder would still be 6x7, so I'm not sure how I'd know if my framing was correct.</p>

<p>-PBD</p>

[david_zheng1]

<p>Mamiya RZ are much heavier than Bronica SQ-AI, but they have larger film size. Bronica SQ-AI has TTL, B and 16 second shutter speed that Bronica SQ-A has no. If those function are not very important for you, you could pick up Bronica SQ-A that are much easier to find and cheaper. Both of Bronica SQ-AI and Bronica SQ-A can use S and PS lens. You can find most PS lens on ebay from $100 to $400 except few rear lens such as zoom, 500mm and may be excellent condition 110mm/4.5 micro lens. Bronica SQ-AI and Bronica SQ-A are very durable if you do not abuse them and I see my friend use a 20 years old Bronica SQ-A with a lot of abuse and still function well. Good luck for you search.</p>

[frank uhlig]

<p>In the post above someone is trying to sell a Rolleiflex ... Opportunities galore. When time is so short ...</p>

[jack_welsh]

<p>Have the RB 67 and the Mamiya C220. The RB is heavier. The 6x6 capability is built in when looking in the view finder. Beacuse the viewfinder shows markings for both the Portrait and Landscape modes.Use and old Graphic 6x6 back. The C220 is lighter than the C330. Also, the Mamiya TLR's are great for closeups. When taking photos very closeup, a tripod would most likely be used . Because of the shallow DOF. I would get a Paramender for the TLR.</p>

[yefei_he1]

<p>Paul,</p>

<p> Wise men say that one learns the most when he suffers the most. So, to make you and your instructor suffer through the process, I suggest you get a Kodak Medalist II. I'm only joking, of course. The Medalist is a solid camera with an outstanding lens, and creates large 6x9 format negatives. Its ergonomics is left to be desired, though. And, it has a fixed lens, with separate rangefinder and viewfinder, and uses 620 format film. Those are the "suffering" parts. But it's really fun and cool to use!</p>

[ned1]

<p>For $700 you can get a complete Pentax 645 kit with 55, 75 and 150 lenses. If you 'aren't comfortable with a light meter it's a great way to go.</p>

[robert lee]

<blockquote>

<p>Are there any options for shooting 6x6 on this unit?</p>

</blockquote>

<p>There is no 6x6 back (so as to get 12 exposures per roll rather than 10.) There is a 645 back and a 6x8 back, however.</p>

<p>While we're on the RB, the camera has a number of nice design touches. First, the bellow focusing essentially gets you a built-in extension tube for all lenses. A little graph keyed to the amount of extension indicates the number of stops light loss to compensate for.</p>

<p>Second, the film back revolves 90deg (hence the Revolving Back in RB) to accommodate either portrait or landscape composition. This is really important. Rotating the entire 7 pound camera and lens, with a waist level finder mounted, isn't very practical. The camera automatically drops down two red frame lines in the finder with the back rotated into the portrait orientation. This demarcates the portrait framing area.</p>

<p>Finally, top shutter speed is only 1/500sec. However, all lenses are leaf shuttered. This means strobes will sync at all shutter speeds.</p>

[paul_b._davis1]

<p>Are there any qualitative differences between the Bronica lenses and the Mamiya RB lenses? More or less contrasty, sharp, etc?</p>

<p>I also noticed that the maximum aperture of the Mamiya lenses is slightly smaller than some of the Bronicas (3.6 vs 2.8, iirc). Does anybody miss that extra aperture width?</p>

<p>-Paul B. Davis</p>

[chris_waller]

<p>I would suggest most urgently that you consider the Mamiya RB67. It is, to my mind, the most versatile of MF cameras and has a reputation for robustness. I have one, but I also have the Mamiya TLRs (C3, C220, C330), which I love using.</p>

[stephen_hipperson]

<p>As somebody who went through the same process a few years back, I would firmly recommend you to leave the 35mm option well alone and concentrate on the medium format. When I was looking my choices were Mam 67RB and the Bronica SQ. I also looked at Hasselblad, you should be able to pick one up on your budget. As it happened I came upon a Rolleiflex SL66, which has a bellows front but is able to tilt a few degrees in the vertical plane. Your budget should pick you up a 'set' of bronica, though most of these seem to have been well hammered - workers but well used.<br>

The reason I say to leave the 35mm alone is that you'll never use a film camera if you have digital, the film is so long, the negatives are small, negative quality can be iffy if you're starting out so enlarging to say 8x10 will show all the faults, grain etc - at least mf doesn't have to be enlarged so much - so the qualilty of your prints should be streets ahead. Loading spools of 35mm film is more fiddly than 120 though these are none too simple on worn spools! The big advantage, for me at least and others reported the same, was the seeming natural inclination to slow down when using mf film (12 exposures on square 6x6), so shots become much more considered. The other problem with film is the length of the damn things when you come to hang them for drying. I'm not that tall, 5' 9" and I found 'squeegying' the film with my finger really difficult as my arms aren't long enough! <br>

One area you may be able to explore with film is pinhole photography - you don't get dust on the sensor, or noise problems with long exposure (though there are other considerations which will become apparant through normal use).<br>

One point to remember, is that any lenses you put on your 35mm film camera will need to be 'full frame' ready, many digital lenses aren't designed for that format.<br>

Good luck with your course, this may be the only time that you can ever be bothered with using film, so relax into it, you'll make some stupid mistakes, (there's nothing like dropping a film you're loading on the floor of the college darkroom!), but ultimately you may end up with some really satisfying photographs.</p>

 

[kparratt]

<p><strong>TLR</strong> - Above all else, I suggest you seriously consider the simplicity of twin lens cameras.<br>

My first experience with medium format was with TLR 6x6. Indeed my first photography 'teacher' used a Rolleiflex and nothing else. He never carried a light meter. "I have it in my mind" he would say. He only ever used Tri-x and a D76 deep tank, maintained on the replenishment system.<br>

Photography is not about being an equipment freak.<br>

Learn this language: Light > silver halides > chemistry<br>

The camera: Good quality lens + reliable mechanics.<br>

Vision: That's up to you.<br>

<strong>TLR Top choice A: Rolleiflex</strong> - lightweight, compact, beautiful build, excellent lenses.<br>

<strong>TLR Top choice B: Mamiya C330/220</strong> bigger and bulkier, built for robust professional studio use. Interchangeable film lens boards. Pin sharp lenses, but some with lousy Bokeh (out of focus areas) Many used C330s have been <em>really</em> used. The one thing to watch for is wear in the focusing gear track. If the front panel feels at all loose, pass on it and look for a tight one. (Hard to check this online, so read descriptions carefully and ask questions) But there's not much else that will ever go wrong. Frank Schifano and Jack Welsh both mention the Mamiya C330 and C220, and I, even as a Hasselblad user for decades, endorse their advice. TLR 6x6 is a great place to start. Many professional photographic careers have been with the C330 and nothing else.<br>

TLR Middle choice: Yashica 124G Lovely lens - mechanically crap. Unreliable now, unless you find a near-new example. I own one, but don't use it anymore. Life is too short.<br>

TLR Bottom choice: If you are serious about photography, forget the rest and go for the best.<br>

..............<br>

Now for the equipment freak discussion.<br>

<strong>1.</strong> <strong>The cross compatibility issue</strong> was one of the main reasons I sold off my Bronica S2A outfit in 1990, using the funds as a 50% down payment on a Hasselblad 500C. (I've never looked back)<br>

<strong>2.</strong> <strong>Lens quality</strong> another issue. The 75mm Nikkor has beautiful optics. (I used it on a first trip to Europe in '89 - One lens, and only one film mag.) Pre-internet days, I hunted camera shops & newspaper ads to find another magazine, a 100mm lens and a 40mm. These additional lenses were nowhere near the 75mm in any respect. The all Zeiss line-up of Hasselblad lenses is superb.<br>

<strong>3.</strong> <strong>Build quality</strong> . I picked up a Hasselblad for the first time at the Camera Exchange in Melbourne. The neatness of the design, it's size and the feel of it, the sound of it ... wow! This was a precision instrument. The S2A was by comparison a cake tin, with it's pressed metal components. Yes, true, later models of Bronica are something different, but with every new model there were those compatibility problems. Whereas, a 1949 Hasselblad film magazine can be used on the current 2009 500C model. It was Victor Hasselblad's philosophy to <strong><em>not</em> </strong> create 'designed obsolescence.' The person who sold me his S2A had a late Bronica, which spent half it's time at the clinic gathering dandruff, as one technician after another scratched their heads trying to solve electrical problems. It seems he bought an unlucky item that had slipped through the quality control system at manufacture. The warranty had just expired, (together with my interest in that brand.)<br>

The arguments over personal preferences for one format against another, and worse, one brand versus another, can become very passionate, taking on an almost religious fury. Ignore it.<br>

Keep it simple. Learn and become familiar with the feel of rollfilm and think about modular systems later.<br>

I like to refer to the advice given by Jonathan Eastland, author of the Leica M and R Compendiums. When discussing the imaging properties various Leica lenses, he says "If you can't dig any deeper into your pocket, dig deeper into your imagination."<br>

...<br>

Only now am I investing in larger formats, from 6x7 up to 13x18, all for specific tasks which require technical camera movements. Again, all within one brand: Linhof, for build quality and system compatibility.</p>

<p>Paul, for you now, Rolleiflex or C330/220 and a light meter.</p>

<p>Cheers, Kevin.<br>

PS. Tomorrow I hop over to London for a week with hand luggage only. If I had a Rolleiflex TLR, I'd grab it first. But I don't, so my one camera + one lens is:</p>

<p> </p><div></div>

[mauro_franic]

<p>The RZ67 is probably the best system available, it is affordable ($800 with the 110mm lens) and with top glass available for it (much higher grade than Canon lenses). Most people find that its size and weight are justified for the flexibility it offers. Even in the field.</p>

<p>If you want to get a lighter -rangefinder- then the Mamiya 7II is the best choice.</p>

<p>When you get serious with MF, chances are you will end up buying one of these two systems anyway.</p>

[andrew_kennedy5]

<p>Paul, I was in the same situation as you this time last year. At the time I bought an RB67 ProS quite cheaply and have been very happy with it. Over the year, however, I've also bought a Rollei TLR and a Zorki rangefinder. I think my advise would be that until you get in to the course you're not going to know what types of camera you will want to work with. I've used all three and my canon digital for my photography course.<br>

If I had to recommend one camera to you, I would suggest you go for a Rollei TLR, I bought a 1950's T model with loads of accessories for £250 this year - you don't have to go for the uber expensive 2.8F. It is a beautiful camera with very special optics and robust build. A Rollei TLR can restrict you in some ways but this can be an advantage as well and can force you to start thinking about your photography in different ways.<br>

No matter what you decide, I hope you enjoy your course.</p>

[dave_redmann]

<p>If I were in your shoes, I'd definitely buy an EOS film body, this is an inexpensive no-brainer. But I'd probably go cheaper than a 1V or 3. If you really want at least an EOS-3, KEH has one now in bargain condition for $165. Or you can go with a lighter, cheaper body, something like an Elan 7 or 7E ($45 - $80). Or the suggestion for an A2 / A2E ($35 - $70) would probably work too, probably a step up in basic quality from the 7's, but older than the 3 and the 7's.</p>

<p>If you <em>also</em> want medium format, I'd think of the EOS body as my hand-held/action camera and the MF as my tripod camera. Once you've accepted the use of a tripod, unless you are hiking with it or something, the best bet is probably the Mamiya RB-67. Get a Pro-S or Pro-SD body, compatible back, and basic prism (or waist-level finder, if you prefer) from KEH. If you accept their "bargain" condition (which is fine!), this plus a normal (90mm f/3.8 C) lens will go $300 to $400 there. For wide angles, the 65mm f/4.5 C starts at $159, and if you crop to 8x10 or 16x20, is equivalent to a 28mm lens on a 35mm camera; and the 250mm f/4.5 C starts at $144, and is equivalent to a 108mm lens on a 35mm camera. So you could put together a basic system for not much over $300, or get a fairly full system for about $650.</p>

 

[tomsheridan]

<p>I recommend a "basic" Hasselblad 500C/503 with 80mm Planar and A12 back. The lens quality and build are superb. This is something easily bought over eBay, and you can add extra lenses and doodads such as metered eye-level finder, close-up rings, pistol grip, Polaroid film holders as desired.</p>

[robert_landrigan]

<p>Take a look at KEH.com, and grab an EOS A2/A2e/5, they are running silly cheap and mine that I bought new in 1994 is running strong after an insane amount of film through it. You'd still have more than enough in your budget for a RB/RZ67 or SQ-AI kit as well. Best of both worlds:)</p>

[holger]

<p>Another vote for the RB67. I had a Pro S until last year, sold it (stupid me), and bought a very beaten but perfectly working SD a few weeks ago for under USD 500.</p>

<p>I have a Rolleiflex too, and I use both, but for IQ and the 6x7 format the RB is my workhorse in mf. I got the 127mm lense, I prefer it to the wider 90mm. Be careful if you get the RB, if a lever does not move, there is a reason for it. Don't force anything. Read the manual. I love my RB, and I won't sell it again.</p>

[stratvio]

<p>I was in nearly the same situation last year as well - I had lots of canon glass, but only digital bodies. I started with a EOS 3, and liked that a lot at the time - it's a great camera, good metering (w/ multi-point metering), fast shooting for action, and coming from digital it has a fantastic viewfinder. A few weeks into the course I bought a C330 and started to see the medium format advantage - I loved the waist-level viewfinder, that I could view with 2 eyes, and that the image was nearly as large as a print. As someone said, close-ups are a bit tough with a TLR, but the C330 has a line that indicates where the actual top of the photo will be, and with practice you can get pretty good at framing even close-up shots. I recently got a RB67 pro-s, and now that's my go-to camera. If I need to travel lighter I take the C330, but otherwise I'm carrying the RB67 - I love the 6x7 negs, and especially the fact that you can have several backs and swap film out quickly and in mid roll, to change speeds, bw-color, etc. One issue I had with the RB67 was in printing - my lab didn't have a 6x7 neg carrier, and while the 6x6's are common on ebay and elsewhere, it took me a few weeks to find a carrier on ebay. The other thing I wasn't crazy about was the 10-shot limit with 120 film... 12 was already tough to get used to shooting 6x6. I've since switched to 220, and the 20-shots/roll is nice, but film cost does add up. As for costs of my kit - I got the C330 w/ a 65mm lens for $200 on ebay, and the RB67 pro-s with a prism and 127mm c lens for $300 from a local shop. I later got a 135mm lens for the C330 for $80, a 65mm for the RB67 for $125, and a 140mm macro for the RB67 for $80 - if you're persistent and patient, you can get great deals. I think I'd suggest getting a cheaper canon for now (it is great for action and portability, and you can use all your lenses), and keep your eyes open for great deals on nice equipment once you figure out what you want. A couple of other points - I use a canon 580 ex ii w/ the RB67 and it works great, but you'll need a bracket to hold it since the cold shoe is in an awkward spot on the side of the camera. Also, you'll want a meter of some kind - I started just carrying my slr with me to meter with the C330, then later bought a sekonic, but with practice (and thanks to the latitude of film), I've gotten to the point that in a lot of situations you can make a pretty good guestimate, and be close enough to correct.</p>