Where have the Large format cameras gone?

cliffmanley · August 30, 2009

I just watched a nice show on PBS about Art Sinsabaugh photographs and it showed him with his large format cameras. Very good program.

cliffmanley · August 30, 2009

Check this out..Running around in the street with a huge camera.

<a href="http://www.indiana.edu/~iuam/online_modules/sinsabaugh/b_main.html">http://www.indiana.edu/~iuam/online_modules/sinsabaugh/b_main.html</a>

mike dixon · August 31, 2009

Film is not Eastman Kodaks environmental problem, it's the plastics and associated chemicals to make the plastic and throw away cameras that was the problem.

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Can you provide a source for that information? The information I've found about Kodak's pollution violations concern their film manufacturing.

a_bruce · August 31, 2009

"In some areas High Schools and Jr Colleges got rid of chemical darkrooms over 5 to 7 years ago" I'm a 20 year old photography student (studying my degree in Farnham in the UK), I have my own Cambo 5x4 and 10x8. In the university we have over 50 colour enlargers and about 20 b&w enlargers as well as full chemistry for developing all film types. Our stores have far more sinar's, toyo's, mamiya rb's, rz's, hasselblads and bronicas than they have nikon digitals and we are strongly advised to use film. For me, using large format means I can make prints of better quality than guys like Tim Flach who's using a £25,000 Hasselblad H3D.

cliffmanley · August 31, 2009

A Bruce, How very fortunate you are to have such a facility to learn. Hopefully they also have some old timer masters, teaching some of the little techniques that are soon forgotten. Is there a possibility of you posting a link to your course syllabus, that we could distribute to the miserable failing schools we have here? I bet it doesn't resemble the Digital syllabus written above. Film Rocks, but the majority of digital users grew up on Game Boy and Pac Man toys, and like to push menu buttons. Please post some of your work so we can see it, and. Thanks for the post. Very inspirational.

cliffmanley · August 31, 2009

Andrew, I like your Roadkill series, in their makeshift body bags. With the impending WWIII it is almost a premonition of things to come. I like Rachael's light meter too.

tomscott · August 31, 2009

I sure wish I could find some young kid that would drive me around, and haul my stuff, in exchange for teaching them.

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I may not be a young kid at age 50 but, if I lived in the area I would gladly take you up on that offer. I was born in Fl and lived there for at least half of my life, from Orlando to Sebring, Key West and the Tampa Bay area, but now am in NE Georgia, I am afraid it would be too far to drive (at least on a regular basis). I did just pick up a speed graphic w/ graflok back and now thanks to Gabor I have some film holders. The only thing left is to get some film, and a daylight tank and start experimenting.

By the way Cliff, I have already learned a lot from reading your posts.

mike dixon · August 31, 2009

Is there a possibility of you posting a link to your course syllabus, that we could distribute to the miserable failing schools we have here? I bet it doesn't resemble the Digital syllabus written above. Film Rocks, but the majority of digital users grew up on Game Boy and Pac Man toys, and like to push menu buttons.

I bet the actual syllabus used at the "miserable failing schools we have" doesn't resemble the syllabus that you invented above. It's a bit sad that you're so eager to insult and ridicule young photographers simply because they're not using the same tools that you choose. I've seen the work of a number of young photographers whose photography is far superior to anything on your site.

cliffmanley · August 31, 2009

Mike, you must have gotten some bad sushi over there or something. I was not insulting the young photographers, but rather the so called photography schools that don't teach wet photography anymore. In the professional world, there is a need for the knowledge of large format photography, and how to use a view camera, even if it has a digital back, and I think should still be a part of the curriculum. Just ask Andrew. Obviously he is fortunate to be receiving a well rounded education on the subject.

What is a bit sad, is the fact that you do not see that I have always tried to inspire young photographers in my posts. Ask anyone who has ever read my posts. I've always tried to teach someone something. It may be only a little thing, but maybe something they had not seen before. So instead of criticizing me, why not add something inspirational to this post, or get lost.

Lou_Meluso · August 31, 2009

Cliff, We recently had the Art Sinsabaugh show, American Horizons, here at the Nelson. In addition to the fabulous contact prints from that monster camera, Art's widow lent us his Deardoff 20x24 banquet camera for display at the show. What an beautiful hunk of wood. I just loved it. That is till, after the show, I got a panic call from the curator who couldn't figure out how to fold the thing up. Talk about lost secrets of large format. After a bit we did figure it out. an amazing machine and a learning experience for me.

Lou_Meluso · August 31, 2009

Oops! thats D-e-a-r-d-o-r-f-f

mike dixon · August 31, 2009

I was not insulting the young photographers, but rather the so called photography schools that don't teach wet photography anymore. In the professional world, there is a need for the knowledge of large format photography, and how to use a view camera, even if it has a digital back, and I think should still be a part of the curriculum.

You're conflating two different things: not having a wet darkroom, and not teaching how to use a large-format camera. The professional photographers I know who use large-format cameras do not do their own film developing and printing (even the ones who have switched to digital for most product work didn't do their own developing before the switch). For that matter, only a small percentage of professional photographers, using any format, did their own developing and printing before digital became the dominant capture medium.

If you think characterizing younger photographers as mindless button pushers who are incapable of taking their cameras off the auto setting is "inspirational" rather than insulting, it would certainly explain why you don't have any volunteers to haul your gear around in exchange for your knowledge. As for adding something to this post, I've tried to give a more-balanced view about film's impact on the environment, about photography education, and about the requirements of professionals. With any luck, I've inspired people to actually do their own research on these topics instead of accepting your gross distortions at face value.

cliffmanley · August 31, 2009

Mike, here is exactly what I said.

"but the majority of digital users grew up on Game Boy and Pac Man toys, and like to push menu buttons" That is a true statement and is not insulting in the least. They grew up with it and like it. That in no way insinuates that they cannot get it off auto or that they are mindless.

As for the schools. A school has the responsibility to teach a well balanced curriculum, that will at least introduce and prepare the student to the things they may encounter in the professional world. No one will encounter all the things taught, but they should be taught none the less. I'm sure you can think of things that you had to learn, that you think were a total waste of time. And there are others that use that same information on a daily basis. This is not to say you could not photographer and never see a piece of film in your life and have a perfectly great professional career. But if you are to be employable as a professional, you should have a broad and well balanced education no matter what the subject matter.

As for the pollution problems, I have given the basic hit words you need to do your research, that I will not do for you. You can check the EPA records to see that the main problem lies with the plastic industry, both in production and in waste. In production the discharge vents have been using incinerators, but need additional scrubbers to eliminate more of the dangerous emissions. Some plastics plants even are being attributed to DNA changes. The film and chemicals are very simple to look at in the Material safety data sheets, and see that they are safe and have been for a century. There were some pretty deadly chemicals used in the mid 19th century, but other than a few people recreating those mediums, they are not used anymore. So why don't you go do your homework. Plastic is the major polluter of the planet and the oceans

You have given nothing of a balanced view about anything, you have only shown your ignorance by doing what you know best, that is to argue for arguments sake. I'm tired of wasting my time with you, so get out of my truck and walk home. If anyone else wants to argue with you, go ahead, but I will not respond to you any more, so go bother someone else on another post.

cliffmanley · August 31, 2009

Louis, I thought the Banquet camera that he used was a 12x20. Did you say the camera on display was a 20x24 portrait camera? I guess he may have used one of those too. Were there any 20x24 contact prints on display? That camera he is running with in the street didn't really look like a Banquet camera but more like what you are describing as a 20x24.

jack_welsh · September 1, 2009

"Jack, do a little research into Eastman Kodak's environmental record. Film is most-definitely not an environmentally-friendly medium."

Mike, I didn't say that film and it's chemicals are non-polluting. What I said was that the people that are extracting the valuable components from an electronic device are getting acid burns on their hands, in their lungs and large groups of people can not drink the water. When I grew up in the 50's and 60's, i never saw large groups of people choking because someone was developing film, the communities drinking water was unusable and a population's miscarriages and cancers increased several times over.

Lou_Meluso · September 1, 2009

Cliff, right you are. Brain freeze. The Sinabaugh's Deardorff in the show was a 12x20 Banquet camera. And all the prints were contact prints in the show. Very lush. It's the largest standard view camera I've ever seen up close, a real beauty.

mike dixon · September 1, 2009

But if you are to be employable as a professional, you should have a broad and well balanced education no matter what the subject matter.

Fair enough. But you have no evidence that a school without a wet darkroom is failing to provide a well-balanced education that provides its students with the photographic skills they need. If anything, most photography training probably fails at providing the marketing and business skills that photographers will need. Not being experienced in a wet darkroom doesn't damage a new photographer's employability (on the other hand, not being experienced with fundamental digital workflow would seriously hurt a new photographer's employability). The "syllabus" you invented was complete fiction.

So why don't you go do your homework.

The hits about Kodak's disposable camera pollution brings up articles about the company's extensive recycling program for their disposables. Hits about Kodak's pollution record bring up articles about violations and fines for their film manufacturing.

I'm tired of wasting my time with you, so get out of my truck and walk home.

It's not your truck; it's a open forum for the civil exchange of information. And I'm not some kid who grew up pushing buttons on a Game Boy; I have extensive experience with film (shooting, developing, and printing) across several formats (including 4x5), including professional experience (both my own, and personal and working relationships with other professional photographers). Your attempts at bullying me into silence won't work.

cliffmanley · September 1, 2009

"you have no evidence" you keep saying that, have you been arrested before? You usually only here that from guilty people.

I have not attempted to bully you into silence. I said I would be silent, and not argue with you anymore but that others could continue if they wished. But I had to post one more time on the subject.

Basic business and marketing is taught in every degree program there is. Any special areas that a photographer may encounter would be if He/She were to go into business for themselves as an independent freelance photographer, and has nothing to do with employability. Yes my syllabus was a farce, but it was supposed to be. I'm quite sure that digital work flow is taught in any of the schools, including the ones that have a balanced program including film. I don't recall saying that they shouldn't teach it.

Hits about Kodak's pollution record: This is all off the internet and not my words.

Whereas, there is increased community concern about hazardous waste incineration at Kodak Park and emissions of known carcinogens, including dioxin and hexavalent chromium and Kodak acknowledges that costly pollution controls may be necessary to meet Clean Air Act requirements;

Whereas, Kodak has a history of environmental violations resulting in substantial penalties including $2,000,000 in fines (1990) and $5,000,000 in civil fines (1994) and a negotiated settlement with the US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) to spend $12,000,000 over eight years on environmental cleanup projects;

According to the EPA, Kodak released more dioxin into New York's environment in 2000 than any other source. Kodak isn't just number one in dioxin emissions, however. As of 1999, they've also ranked as New York State's leading producer of recognized airborne carcinogens and waterborne developmental toxicants. They've also gained notoriety as New York's number one source for releases of suspected endocrine, gastrointestinal, liver, cardiovascular, kidney, respiratory and reproductive toxicants as well as neurotoxins. Kodak alone released more toxic chemical emissions listed in the federal Toxics Release Inventory (TRI) than all of the 144 major polluters in Erie (Buffalo), Niagara (Niagara Falls) and Monroe (Rochester) counties combined.

Groundwater studies conducted in and around Kodak Park in the late 1990s show that fluid wastes from the Kodak plant are anything but benign. A 1996 study, for example, found methylene chloride concentrations as high as 3,600,000 parts per billion. The permissible legal level is five parts per billion.

Methylene chloride is employed in the manufacture of polycarbonate resin used for the production of thermoplastics, including solvent welding of plastic parts, and as a releasing agent to prevent the manufactured part from permanently bonding to the mold.

Dioxin is formed by burning chlorine-based chemical compounds with hydrocarbons. The major source of dioxin in the environment comes from waste-burning incinerators of paper mills which use chlorine bleaching in their process and with the production of Polyvinyl Chloride (PVC) plastics.

Chromium hexavalent (CrVI) compounds, often called hexavalent chromium, exist in several forms. Industrial uses of hexavalent chromium compounds include chromate pigments in dyes, paints, inks, and plastics; chromates added as anticorrosive agents to paints, primers, and other surface coatings; and chromic acid electroplated onto metal parts to provide a decorative or protective coating.

Like I said Above It's the plastic.

It's the Plastic!!!!!!!

It's the Plastic!!!!!!!

You will gain no respect from others by trying to convince them of your supposed extensive experience, childishly (no matter what your age) attempting to gain attention, by arguing for arguments sake. No, I can't make you walk home; you can aimlessly wander wherever you want, I guess, but you might want to consider the quote. "It is better to remain silent and be thought of a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt?.

jeff_guthrie · September 1, 2009

As a teacher myself, and having had the benefit of a good education during my youth, I have to say that the educational standards of today (in America) border on the apalling. SAT scores continue to fall with the decline in educational standards. But personally, I think this doesn't really apply to photography classes that much.

The method one uses to get one's pictures is less important than the pictures themselves. Film or digital, the basic mechanical functions of a camera are much the same, shutter speed, aperture, and ISO. It would be better that more class time be spent on more important matters, like composition and light.

A couple of years ago I relocated to Japan, and have resumed my teaching career here. I like working in a more education-oriented society, where people take education as seriously as it should be taken. Standards remain high, for teachers and students alike.

Another good thing about Japan is that photography is likely the most popular hobby in the country. I began doing large format photography after arriving here, and I've been enjoying it very much. I don't have a darkroom, just a drum for processing my sheet film, and an Epson 750 scanner for uploading the images onto my PC.

There are numerous used camera stores throughout Japan, and many have an abundance of large format gear. The turnaround in these shops is very high, if I see something I like, I have to buy it quickly, as the odds are that it won't be on the shelf for more than a few days. The used gear tends to sell much more quickly than the new stuff, as it's abundant, and far less expensive.

Film is much easier to find. Some of the larger stores here still have Polaroid 4x5 instant film in stock (I've been tempted to buy it up and sell it on Ebay), and films which are difficult to find in America (Quickloads and Acros sheet film) are common and relatively inexpensive. I alway check the bargain bin at the larger shops for deals on film, I picked up a bunch of Fuji Silk 4x5 instant film for half price this week, the bin also contained some Astia and Velvia 5x7 film (too bad I don't know anyone who uses 5x7).

Digital is incredibly popular in Japan (as all technical things are popular), but film cameras remain popular as well, and there is even a television program which showcases vintage and collectible cameras. It's rare that I go out on weekends and not see many people with a film camera around their necks (old Nikons, Leicas, or old Pentax SLRs). It's fun to run across members from a photography club (there are countless such clubs) and compare what gear we are carrying in our bags.

I don't think film as a medium will ever completely die. It may become harder to find, and more expensive, but it will still be here. I just scanned a 4x5 negative at 2400 dpi and ended up with an image measuring 10824x8599 pixels. My entire large format kit (including my scanner) cost a fraction of what I paid for my Nikon DSLR, which isn't capable of producing as large or as sharp an image. One day digital may catch up, but...

cliffmanley · September 1, 2009

Jeff, you are quite correct about the American education system, This has been done by design. Now you are more likely to see the Doctors and Engineers come from Japan or India, than the U.S.

In Japan they believe in a well balanced life, from cutting technology to ancient history and culture, ying and yang, everything in balance, This includes film and digital. The only thing I have against digital is all the plastic going into the landfills. As Kelly said above, the digital cameras have been around a long time. And most of those are in the dump. Just remember the resolution of those first cameras and the little crappy picture they produced. Totally useless in todays world and sent to the dump. Millions upon Millions of them. And even the ones being produced today will end up there soon enough.

Thanks for your post.

mike dixon · September 1, 2009

Cliff, that tough substrate (cut into rolls or sheets that go in your camera) for the chemical emulsion that captures light is plastic . Kodak's pollution problems didn't begin when they started making plastic disposable cameras; they had a poor environmental record well before that.

It's ironic that you accuse me of childish behavior when it's your posts that are filled with insults and negative personal insinuations.

cliffmanley · September 1, 2009

Tom Scott,

I hope you can make it back down to Florida and do a coastal photo tour some day with your Speed Graphic. I especially like the Gulf coast, and there are spectacular photos to be had. Maybe , if you're in Georgia, you could make it over and take some pictures of the Georgia Guide Stone, where it tells of the elite plan to eliminate 80 percent of the worlds population, in the name of sustainable development. I'm sure some people would like to see that. I've already seen it, and didn't like it or its intent. But for the record it might be good to have a picture of it.

It's always thrilling to me to see someone pick up a fairly old Speed Graphic, plate camera, or view camera, and actually want to use it. So much so, they go out of their way to find holders and processing equipment to do it. It's not as easy as just replacing a dead battery, and actually requires some desire and drive to accomplish. Once you get started it's addictive and you will want to learn more and more. Good luck to you and If I can help you in any way, don't be afraid to ask.

a_bruce · September 1, 2009

For those interested in the syllabus of my course, a little can be found about it on the website here: http://www.ucreative.ac.uk/index.cfm?articleid=19067 The course focuses on the fine-art area of the medium, and most of the teachers are artists or documentary photographers. However the philosophy is that the strict rational thinking and creativity that form the foundations of fine-art photography are perfect grounds for any kind of different photography to blossom. And we do indeed have some old masters to guide us, one guy especially used to run the colour-section of Gene Nocon's old lab.. As or my own opinion, I wouldn't go as far as saying schools are awful if they do not teach large-format... just that, to look through a view camera is to see photography as it first was - it tells you so much about the medium, about light, lenses, perspective, focus, timing.. and even about the history of the photography.. I often feel its (and I'm getting poetic and mushy here now) the 'purest' way of taking photographs. and that's why i love it..

cliffmanley · September 1, 2009

Thank You, I'll look that over.and appreciate your posting it.

The View camera is a unique and fantastic tool for table top product advertising, in that the tilt and swing make it possible to create large format photos that are otherwise unusable. Certainly there is the nostalgia aspect too, that is also a thrill.

I shouldn't have to say "in my opinion" since anything that is not quoted from another source IS someones opinion. But anyway, in my opinion, large format should still be included in a course of study, since it is still being used in the photographic industry. If it is just a night class in photography, that is another story completely. That could be a K1000 with some film or all digital, the intent of such a class is not to prepare you for the professional world.. When I was in Engineering school, we were required to take a 1 hour credit course in slide rule computation. That seems crazy in todays world but was the method being used in the field at the time. They required that course for some time after the invention of the hand calculators, even though most were using the new machines, some companies still required the use of slide rules. That is only one archaic example of millions in the Education world.

Good luck to you Mr. Bruce in all of your endeavors.

cliffmanley · September 1, 2009

Wow I love this course description. It seems like they see the need to include analogue and traditional techniques to be a well rounded professional. Looks like a great place to be Andrew.

"This course delivers a considered balance of support that develops practical skills and fosters diverse critical approaches to a high standard. This support is provided by internationally renowned staff in a department that encourages experimentation with facilities that allow for a range of working practices. These include state of the art digital technology, Hasselblad HD cameras, high-end digital printing, a full range of analogue equipment and darkrooms as well as specialist workshops on traditional techniques that provide new perspectives on contemporary practice. This balance enables you to establish yourself as rounded professional artists who can formulate ideas in a sophisticated framework whilst also being able to communicate these ideas to others, both visually and verbally. A distinctive feature of the course is an emphasis on publication, enabling you to find creative ways to disseminate your work beyond the academic context and into the public arena."

UCA course description

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Where have the Large format cameras gone?

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