martindomok Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 <p>Hello, <br>here is my story. <br>In 2004 I was in the US working at this unnamed hotel on the East cost and apart from my usual job I was taking pictures there - just for mysself - lanscapes, daily life pictures, pictures of my colleagues and so on. <br>When I left I burned copies of pictures to the hotel owner - I thank him for giving me a job and he always treated me very nice, I made cool money during that summer, but also I was on 2 jobs and did work 85 hour weeks. <br>Four years has gone by and just last week the hotel owner launched a fancy web site of his hotel with flash banner where he used 4 of my pictures (without my permission) and also in the send a postcard gallery all pictures are mine. <br>On the bottom of the web site it says: all rights reserved. Thank you very much, whose rights? <br>What shall I do? In total we speak about 9 pictures. <br>Thanks, have a good day, <br /><br />M</p><p> </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martindomok Posted June 30, 2009 Author Share Posted June 30, 2009 <p>At the moment Im based in Europe. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcnilssen Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 <p>First, has the owner been able to contact you, since you now are based in Europe? I also guess that you are not a professional photographer, making your living by selling photos?</p> <p>Since you have not posted any further information on the hotel web-site, my ramblings will be of more general character.</p> <p>I guess that taking pictures was not in your contract when working at the hotel. If you hand pictures over to the owner as a thank you gift, and with no obligations, as a recipient, I would also considered using them on my site. After all, I have not taken them from a web-site or other material that clearly states that this is your property. However, I would have tried to reach you with a mail, telling you what I intended, and I would also have inserted your name as a byline.</p> <p>If I were you, I would have been honored, and I would have sent the owner a mail, stating that I have seen the photos, and that I have had a nice job at the hotel. I would also in that mail tell him that the photos were meant as a personal gift, and not for marketing material, and ask him that if he wants to publish other photos, that you will be informed in advance, so that you two can agree upon some compensation for the use. Just be polite, and often things sort out without problems.</p> <p>Best of luck,</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starvy Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 <p>M&M,<br> Do drop him a polite line. Congratulate him on his new website. Say how lovely it looks and that you look forward to visiting it again soon, and that you hope to send many friends there. In the middle section of the note state that you are delighted to see 'your lovely shots' adorning the site. then proceed to say that you will send him an invoice shortly and if he could send the payment to you at this address.<br> His response should determine your newx move.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martindomok Posted June 30, 2009 Author Share Posted June 30, 2009 <p>Thanks Per and Starvy, <br> firstly, I wasnt a pro at that time and picture taking was not in my contract correct. <br />I do work as a pro now, but that doesnt make any difference, pro not a pro, I think it is unethical and he could have asked. He has my email. <br> Also, giving away pictures for personal use I think is obvious in this case and not for marketing or business. <br> Huh to be honored? Sure I would be honored if this is back in 2004 when I was taking pictures for fun, however, now, being a pro, every penny counts. <br> I will try the line with the invoice? However, how he will pay for that even if, is he going to recognize a EU state invoice? He could clearly send a cheque that I could cash, what would be the price tag on 9 pictures? </p> <p> </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDMvW Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 <p>The thing is considerably muddied by the fact that you "burned" and <strong>gave</strong> him copies of the pictures. What was your intent in doing so?</p> <p>If you marked the CD with a copyright or a notice that you retained rights, or that the pictures were for his personal use only, or some such warning, maybe you've got a complaint. Otherwise, much depends on local law, but I doubt that a US jury would give you more than a token settlement, if that. After all is said and done, you <em>gave</em> him the pictures as a gift with your thanks....</p> <p>I'd just mark it up to experience, and be a little less free with your images in the future. Write the guy and ask that you be given a credit line on the pictures, for sure.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcnilssen Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 <p>JDM, that is also my thought. By writing a nice mail, and tell the owner that you would like some compensation next time, maybe the owner wants to pay something for the images he used, but he does not feel hard pressed to to so - just his concience. He may have gotten the impression that the images on the CD were his to use. If you tell him you send him an invoice, I am sure that a lawyer can get him "off the hook" quite fast (not knowing US law - have just watched TV ;) ;) ) as this was meant as a nice gift - and you loose the opportunity to get revenues from later use on those pirctures.</p> <p>I'd settle for some nice bylines on the web-pages, and hope the owner has the concience to pay something.</p> <p>JMHO</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martindomok Posted June 30, 2009 Author Share Posted June 30, 2009 <p>Thanks to all... </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcnilssen Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 <p>It's a pleasure, MM ! Don't forget to tell us the outcome..</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig_gillette Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 <p>If you intend to press the issue, then you need to register the images with the Library of Congress Copyright office. Do so immediately, even before contacting the owner. There are date/time considerations to the consideration of damages, as well as to the time to bring an action. The sticking point, which would likely require advice from a competent copyright/intellectual property attorney would seem to me to be on the time that you provided copies to the owner (compared to the times required for comencing civil or criminal actions under the law), as opposed to the time from the actual infringing use/publication, which seems quite recent and which you are responding to quickly. </p> <p>Other than the cost of registration, it won't hurt you to register. If you don't register in a timely fashion after becoming aware of the infringement, you do lessen the types of penalties which can be assessed.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard-just-Leonard Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 <p>technically you own the copyright. realistically, you are out of luck should you want to really push the issue. you gave him the CD, any reasonable non-photographer would treat it as a gift and do whatever they want with it.</p> <p> </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philfx Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 <p>Taking into account all you mentioned....<br> Contact him, but with NO INVOICE involved, and politely but FIRMLY, have him credit your work on the website(hope for link) on each picture. Afterall, you knew this guy on a business level, and he runs a hotel for business, what else is he gonna do with pictures you hand over to him?<br> You were not hired or asked to shoot it.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig_gillette Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 <p>This isn't a "reasonable non-photographer," he's the owner of a significant business. One of his jobs is knowing if what he is doing is legal or not. What he did is an infringement of the copyright owner's exclusive rights in the US. While it's rather trite and a cliche, "Ignorance of the law is no excuse."</p> <p>And while the web consultant is not responsible, he or she should be wise enough to know about infringing uses of copyrighted materials and might well have been savvy enough to ask about the provenance of the pictures. It would have been a potential way to keep a client from stepping in the stuff.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aimee_pieters Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 <p>There is a very large grey area here. Regardless of whether you were on staff as a photographer or chef or bell captain, you were empolyed when taking the photos by the hotel. A judge could easily rule that your former employer owns the images. If it was done during work hours, that would be even more in the hotel's favor. If you were working for a studio, the images would belong to the studio, not you. The fact that you went to the effort to burn a copy of the files and turned them over of your own free will sort of seals the deal. If the hotel is willing to send you a check, that's fine, otherwise drop it. My guess is that they would rather remove them from the site and claim ignorance and I'm sure it's not worth hiring an attorney over here for this purpose.<br> Spend your time on your future, not your past....-Aimee</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martindomok Posted July 2, 2009 Author Share Posted July 2, 2009 <p>Aimee I see ur point.<br> All images were taken during my free time :)<br> Still I did burn copies to them indeed.<br> I sent them an email saying that I want my name there and the link to my web site once it is online... no news so far...</p> <p> </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig_gillette Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 <p>I'd suggest it's unlikely that this would be a "work for hire" scenario - just being on the clock doesn't make it so. The shots weren't made at the direction of the hotel or for use of the hotel, and weren't provided to the hotel until the OP left their employ.</p> <p>Here's a quick start for the OP on the basics of the issues. The section on "Registration" discusses some of the benefits of timely registration and the limitations if not registered in a timely fashion.</p> <p>http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.pdf</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d_hammond Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 <p>I do believe that the business owner owes you some kind of compensation, be it monetary or photo credit on each page of his site where your work appears. Assuming, as most artists are 'starving', I do believe in your case monetary compensation would be a fitting tribute to your hard works and great photographic talent. Although you would be paid in US dollars, any loss to you in conversion to the Euro would be worth it. If not monetarily compensated, would you find satisfaction to be acknowledged? <br> Regarding being 'honored' having your pics on this website, people must understand one thing about business owners. While most are good people with good intentions, they still are human and many will push the limit and take as much as they can without compensating anyone unless pressed to do so. This one in particular, I know of what I speak.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan_rockwood Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 <p>I suspect the hotel owner doesn't remember who gave him the photos.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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