Runner-up to FM3a?

[dave_wilson1]

<p>YES N90 or N90s in good condition. The FM2 and 2n are old at this point. I used to use four of them for all kinds of stuff and without fail two were always not working and at Nikon getting fixed. The F3 was very dependable, but same thing, these are old stuff now. My original N90 has been through everything, it still works perfect, it has never given a single problem. You can probably buy two or three for a song. That being said, digital is a good idea.</p>

[ShunCheung]

<p>I already asked this twice, but Anita seems to be quite firm about the FM/FE family and seems to be down to between the FM2 and FE2 now. While those wouldn't be my choices now in 2009, it is Anita's preference that matters in this thread. Unless she indicates otherwise, I think we should focus additional answer to those choices.</p>

 

<blockquote>

<p>If you don't have any lenses either, and are starting from scratch, there are other brands of classic manual cameras that are as good or almost as good as Nikon and cost less, because Nikon has more fans and more people using old lenses with new cameras.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I am afraid that is a short-sighted approach. First of all the FM/FE cameras are already dirt cheap in the used market (except for the FM3a, which as I pointed out is now a collector's item); you can't possibly save a whole lot of money getting something else. Worse yet, for those other alternatives such as Canon FD and Olympus OM, etc., the manufacturers already abandoned those lens mounts years ago. Those systems have already been dead ends for decades.<br>

Nikon has the advantage that the fundamental lens mount has not changed since 1959 so that you can use those old lenses on modern digital bodies, and there is a huge used market you can buy from and sell to.</p>

<p>Finally, I bought an FE back in 1978 (the year it was introduced) and still own it. I also had an FE2 from 1987 to about 2002. I never had any problems using them in the dark. I typically used aperture priority (A) and the camera does a good enough job picking a reasonable shutter speed. Personally, I prefer A than all manual on the FM/FM2.</p>

[Dieter Schaefer]

<p>I owned an FM and two FM2 cameras - and always wished I had purchased the FE and FE2 instead. So, if the choice is only between those two series - then I'd opt for the FE2 - simply because of the aperture priority capability. Battery is a none issue. In any case and for whatever its worth, if the FM/FE body style appeals to you, I'd choose an FA over the FE2 anytime.</p>

[mark_crown2]

<p>Hi<br />I own an F3, FE, FM2n and an FM3a. They are all different. I love the fact that the FM3a and FM2n can take the same focus screens - these are bright and dead easy to focus even the slower Nikkor lenses by. The FE's viewfinder is much dimmer - even with a B screen. I only use the fastest lenses or focus hyperfocally with the FE.<br>

<br />Despite the F3's 100% viefinder, it's screens are also dimmer IMHO - even the E screen that I use on it is not as bright as the FM3a screens. I also don't like the memory lock on the F3 - the memory locks on the FE and FM3a are a doddle in comparison. Other than that the F3 is a fantastic camera - it is the easiest manual focus Nikon to load with film and the wind on is marvellously smooth. And it's built to last. The mirror and aperture lock up is also highly effective for tripod work.<br />I'm not sure I like the Fm2n's exposure indication given that it could mean a number of readings. I'm more likely to use print film - colour or B&W - rather than slide film with the FM2n. I get less saturated slides with the FM2n.<br>

<br />I found the meters on the FE and FM3a to be very accurate with slide film. I'm still getting used to the 80/20 metering of the F3.<br>

<br />Aesthetically, I love the almost German sound of my FM3a's shutter. The FE's shutter is quite quiet too, but does not sound as efficient as the newer model. I love handling the FM2n, but it IS slower to use in the field than the FE and FM3a during hiking trips. The auto functions on the F3, FE and FM3a are very responsive. I do find that the FM3a and the FM2n can dent easily however.<br>

<br />Basically I love them all and even though I have a D40 and a Canon G3, I'm always using them.<br>

Long live film!!</p>

[anita_to]

<p>Thank you for everyone's EXTREMELEY helpful advice. <br>

I think I am going to rule out the FM2n, just... because.</p>

<p>But my options have now increased to include the FE2, F3, and F100?<br>

Depending on my ebay/other cheap options, I might opt to get both the FE2, and F3. If anyone has specific "selling points" or pro cons on these models (such as what uses these cameras are better used for i.e. action, b&w, etc.), I would greatly appreciate it (still).</p>

<p>Otherwise, when buying these used models, what should I be looking for to make sure I'm getting the most out of my money? I know someone mentioned serial number.</p>

<p>Thanks again! Everyone here has been extremely kind, and all the information has been very productive to my decision(s) (even if it sometimes makes me more confused, I'm still getting a sense of direction).</p>

[ShunCheung]

<p>Anita, this forum literally has tons of threads on FM vs. FE vs. F3 .... Essentially people will suggest their own favorite camera but that probably has very little to do with what you need. E.g.:<br>

<a href="../nikon-camera-forum/009Jej">http://www.photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/009Jej</a><br>

<a href="../nikon-camera-forum/00F5aK">http://www.photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00F5aK</a></p>

<p>I see very little value to have yet another thread in which everybody pushes for his/her own favorite camera. As the OP, I think Anita should tell us why you have rules out the FM2n and included the F3 and F100? What are you looking for in this camera and what are your preferences?</p>

<p>Personally, the fact that the F3 has 1/80 sec flash sync is sufficient reason to rule it out immediately, but that is just me.</p>

[david_carroll4]

<p>I'm an F3 supporter - F3 serial#s ran from 120xxxx to over 200xxx, covering a production cycle from 1980 to 2001 - the higher the number the better, obviously, but don't fixate on it. I had a F3HP # 148xxx (1983) that worked beautifully, even if a little scuffed. My current F3HP #171xxxx (early 1896) is spotless and functions beautifully - a 23 year old camera, but for a machine as well built as the F3, this isn't old, just "run in". Is it perfect? - no. If you're into flash photography, the F3 doesn't have a built-in hot-shoe (a somewhat kludgy adaptor that slides onto the rewind crank - ugh) and an inconveniently slow synch speed. The exposure lock is awkward to use and the viewfinder illuminator is a bit silly (as in next to useless). It's also a bit of a beast weightwise (~750g body only). On the plus side, it's a brutally efficient picture-taking machine that will probably last forever, regardless of what you throw at it. The F3 had the longest production cycle of any Nikon F model - three times longer than the legendary F2 - simply because there's probably nothing better at getting the pic under any conditions.<br>

What to look for: as i said before, cosmetics are important, if only as an indicator of how the camera has been used - I've seen F3s that look like they've been run over by a bus listed as in "perfect working condition", and they probably are, but who wants a camera that's been worked over so thoroughly? The LCD shutter speed display can theoretically dim over time, but I have never seen it, even in very old F3s. Worth checking though. If you find one going with the MD-4 motordrive, it may be worth buying - the MD-4 definitely imroves the handling, although at the expense of significant added weight (the F3/MD-4 combo weighs in at ~3 lb - but excellent for bicep curls) - but it's an excellent motordrive - powers the camera from its AA battery set, you can also operate the camera meter from the MD button. Whether or not you opt for a motor, confirm that the rewind cap is present - this is the metal screw-on cap that fits into the camera base plate and covers the port used by the winder for motorized film rewind. When the MD-4 is fitted, this is removed and stored in a slot in the MD-4 battery chamber, but I have seen many F3s sold without this cap. Bear in mind that the camera is unusable without it - it covers a wide hole that opens directly into the film chamber, so using the camera without the cap guarantees fogged film. If you're a glasses wearer, strongly consider the F3HP - this has a DE-3 finder that allows the entire frame to be viewed from ~25mm away - this means that the eyeglass wearer doesn't have to squish his/her specs up against the eyepiece. The trade off is that the viewfinder magnification is slightly smaller (0.75x vs. 0.8x for the standard DE-2 finder) - but it still blows any dSLR viewfinder out of the water. I've used Olympus OMs for decades, largely because of their excellent viewfinders, but the first time I looked through a F3HP, I thought I'd died and gone to Heaven - it's that good.<br>

On Ebay, there are any number of F3s available - scuffed up F3s can be had for as little as $100 - if you don't wear glasses, consider a standard F3 - they're cheaper than the HP. I would consider $200 to be an decent price for a HP in good condition (no mechanical issues, maybe a little brassing). Hope this helps.</p>

 

[anita_to]

<blockquote>

<p>

<p >Anita, this forum literally has tons of threads on FM vs. FE vs. F3 .... Essentially people will suggest their own favorite camera but that probably has very little to do with what you need. E.g.:<br /><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/009Jej">http://www.photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/009Jej</a><br /><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00F5aK">http://www.photo.net/nikon-camera-forum/00F5aK</a></p>

<p >I see very little value to have yet another thread in which everybody pushes for his/her own favorite camera. As the OP, I think Anita should tell us why you have rules out the FM2n and included the F3 and F100? What are you looking for in this camera and what are your preferences?</p>

<p >Personally, the fact that the F3 has 1/80 sec flash sync is sufficient reason to rule it out immediately, but that is just me.</p>

</p>

</blockquote>

<p >I'm sorry, I understand that this discussion is probably very frustrating. But I have already read those discussions, and all it did for me was that I walked away more confused. So I hoped for a discussion where someone could specifically state WHY one camera is the better choice than the other. I guess you probably think that's not working out too well. Everyone can tell me what they like, what they don't like, but I can't culminate all of those things into one big table because everyone uses their own style of describing it, or it is only mentioned for one type of the camera. Sites that hold descriptions for these models are also not much help because they are inconsistent as well, or the language used is too difficult for me to understand. I started this discussion because nothing else helped, so I thought maybe this could.</p>

<p > </p>

<p >Thank you very much David. I felt that that has been the best information so far on one camera alone because you stated its pros AND cons, and some very helpful tips on purchasing a used model. </p>

<p > </p>

<p >I just really wish there was some option where I could line them up, feature-to-feature, and compare them. I really do appreciate everyone's input though, it is all extremely helpful nonetheless. I just end up liking all of the cameras from many of the experiences others have had.</p>

[lex_jenkins]

<p>Well, someone needs to play the contrarian, if only for the sake of debate.</p>

<p>I've had the F3HP and FM2N for several years. Unless you have a very specific need for the F3HP features, the FM2N is a better choice for most photographers. I usually take it in preference to my F3HP except in very specific circumstances, including:</p>

<ul>

<li>Tripod based 35mm photography in general.</li>

<li>Architectural photography using my PC Nikkor. The detachable prism is helpful and I've fitted my F3HP with the E type grid screen.</li>

<li>The 100% finder of the F3HP is better for color slide photography.</li>

<li>F3HP has true mirror lockup. Useful for some formal studies, macros, etc., at slow shutter speeds.</li>

<li>Using my 180/2.8 Nikkor. It's a pre-AI version and will not fit my FM2N without damaging the AI tab.</li>

<li>Nighttime long exposures. The F3HP's AE metering handles this very well.</li>

<li>Theater photography. The F3HP's long eye relief finder is an asset when the camera is in a soundproofing blimp box.</li>

</ul>

<p>That's about it. For almost everything else I'll take the FM2N. Most of my photography is candid, casual stuff: street, documentary, events, all handheld. The FM2N is better for this. It's a pleasure to use, the closest thing to my former favorite handheld SLR, the Olympus OM-1. The FM2N viewfinder is excellent, better than the vaunted OM-1 (I've owned both at the same time), and almost as good as the F3.</p>

<p>Motor drives are no longer a factor for me. I have the MD-4 for the F3 and MD-12 for the FM2N but I haven't used them since getting the D2H - more than four years now. I no longer shoot action with the film Nikons and don't want the extra bulk and weight. I can tote both bodies in the space and weight needed for one body and a motor drive.</p>

<p>The FM2N is far superior for flash photography. It has a built-in hot shoe and 1/250th sync speed. The F3HP is fine for studio flash but a pain in the neck with hot shoe flash, for reasons already given by others - slow sync, no built in hot shoe.</p>

<p>The red LED meter readout in the FM2N is far easier to read than the dim gray LCD of the F3HP. Since I do a lot of available light and nighttime photography that makes the FM2N a better choice for me. Both are "no-nothing" meter readouts, with plus/minus prompts and full stop only increments instead of fractional increments in shutter speeds, so it's a tossup. I've never considered that to be a significant matter anyway.</p>

<p>An F3HP without a battery is a nearly useless brick. You get one shutter speed, approx. 1/60th second, which can be activated only by a very awkward mechanical lever on the front of the camera.</p>

<p>Finally, the FM2N is a newer camera. It won't need a CLA anytime soon. Sure, you can buy an F3 for the same price, but unless you're extremely lucky it won't be in the same condition. My F3HP is a beater, dented, with brassing and scuffs, even the eyepiece is dinged. It's built like a brick so it holds up to abuse. You should be able to find one like it for under $200. But I don't see the point when the same money will fetch an FM2N in excellent condition.</p>

<p>Hey, I love my F3HP. It's taken some of my best photos. But it's not the best all-purpose 35mm manual focus Nikon and never really has been. If your photography is primarily slower paced, tripod based work, sure, the F3HP is a very good choice. But if you prefer handheld use and versatility, the FM2N is a better choice.</p>

[Dieter Schaefer]

<blockquote>

<p>WHY one camera is the better choice than the other</p>

</blockquote>

<p>This will differ from photographer to photographer and also depends on what you are shooting. Now that you added the F100 to the list, things will get more complicated, since AF entered the picture. Do you intend to purchase only AF lenses? Or only MF lenses? Or a mix? G-lenses (no aperture ring) won't work at all on the manual focus cameras on your list, but are perfectly usable on the F100. Manual focus lenses won't give you matrix metering with the F100. The F3's meter takes some getting used to due to its more "spot-like" weighting (80:20 vs 60:40 on most other Nikon cameras). As already mentioned, if flash is on your list, forget the F3. This list could go on and on.<br>

It has probably been said in this forum many times, the best deal (value for money) for a film camera is the F100 - since that camera is now on your list, the choice is simple really. Shun already mentioned the camera higher up in this thread, but didn't want to get the discussion off topic because it wasn't under consideration at that time - for someone looking for an FM3A alternative, it didn't (and doesn't) appear to be a viable alternative. For someone looking for the "best deal" it jumps to the top of the list immediately. Unless you need mirror-lockup, or exchangeable viewfinders. Or don't like AF.</p>

 

[john_newell2]

<p>Anita, the two posts above are very thorough and thoughtful. While no one can tell you which camera *you* will get along with best, I think the two leading candidates are F100 if you want or don't mind AF and some (optional) automation or FM2n if you must have a shutter that will fire even if the battery for the meter has died. </p>

[ShunCheung]

<p>Anita, as long as you don't tell us why you initially wanted "a runner up" to the FM3a and why you have now excluded the FM2n but included the AF F100, I can assure you that this thread will be no different from all other "FM vs. FE vs. F2 vs. F3 vs F4 ..." threads that will only leave you more confused.</p>

<p>More importly, fundamentally, what is your photography interest in terms of subjects? What type of lenses will you use, what type of film do you use, slide, negative, black and white? Do you use flash? If we can find out about some of your preferences, it'll help eliminate some of the options.</p>

<p>In case the answer is simply you are not sure, I'd say just buy an F100 or FE2 and start using it, and perhaps you'll gradually develop your preferences.</p>

[david_carroll4]

<p>Predictably, everyone has a strong opinion about their favorite camera, and I'm just as guilty of an F3 bias, simply because it's what I use.<br>

Any of the MF cameras talked about - the FM2(N), FM3A, FE2, F3 will give sterling service for many years. There isn't one among them that a pro wouldn't use. They all access the same lenses, all can be motorized, and they all use variations of the same very reliable centerweighted metering. They all have interchangeable screens, DOF preview, multiple exposure. If you don't wear glasses, all have excellent viewfinders - if you do, the F3HP has an advantage. If you're interested in macro or astro-photography, the F3 has a specific mirror lock up - I don't know about the others, although I think they may have a mirror prefire when the self-timer is used - not as good, but workable. If you want alternative finders (waist level, action etc) the F3 stands alone, but these are pretty specialized needs.<br>

The FM2 and FM3A have battery-independent shutters - an overrated virtue, as I have said, but each to his/her own. The FMs/FEs have an advantage over the F3 in portability. Also, for flash photography, the F3 goes to the back of the class, for various reasons discussed earlier - the F3 is a technologically pretty basic camera, especially compared to the FM3A.<br>

The FM2 is a manual mechanical camera, the FE2, FM3A and F3 offer manual and aperture priority automatic - you don't have to use it, but it's there. For manual operation, I would put the FE2/FM3A at the top - the match needle display may be a bit "old fashioned", but it tells you at a glance how for off the recommended exposure you are - the FM LED display is more limited (tells you over/under, but limited info about how much), and the F3 has subtle "+" and "-" symbols in the LCD - minimal information.<br>

I look on auto exposure sort of like photographic anti-lock brakes - 99% of the time, you can use manual, but it's good to know the camera (or brakes) can kick in when things get hairy...or if you're at a party and just want to have a few beers and snap pics of your friends<br>

For low light, the FMs can't be beat - LEDs are visible in almost any conditions. The F3 finder illumination sucks.<br>

So:<br>

FM2/FM3A - mechanical shutter - battery independent<br>

FM3A/FE2/F3 - aperture priority auto with manual override<br>

FE2/FM3A - IMO best manual operation display<br>

FM2 - best low light viewfinder info<br>

F3HP - best viewfinder for spectacles (but worst display)<br>

F3 - largest range of screens, finders. Mirror lock.<br>

FM2/FM3A/FE2 - equally portable...F3 less so<br>

Wow, looks like my F3 pick doesn't hold up well against the others except in the rather nebulous catagory of "gravitas" and a few specialized areas (like hammering nails).<br>

I would guess that you can find a used excellent FM2 or FE2 for about the same or less than an F3 of equivalent condition - I suspect there's a bit of a "pro camera" surcharge associated with the F3. The FM3A is way overpriced now for what it gives (I wish I'd bought one when they were still being offered new). I suspect the FE3 might be the best value overall.</p>

[john_newell2]

<p>I'm not sure you need to look for a runner-up. KEH has an EX (which translates to almost like new) for $380. A local store here has one in similar condition for $399 (and might be willing to bargain down a bit?). Perhaps the collector pricing for FM3a bodies today only applies to NIB/ANIB cameras, not lightly-used users.</p>

[bj_larsson]

<p>Here is a very quick, concise, Nikon film body run down by Thom Hogan</p>

<p>http://bythom.com/Bodies.htm</p>

<p>My advice: Just go get one. Which ever one appeals to you. And shoot. Many many days I leave my D300 and home and spend time with my FM2n's. But that doesn't mean you should. So make your list of "here is what I want to photograph" and then see which models support that best. Though personally I think it helps to think of the film body as primarily a light-tight box that holds the film. I think more about the lenses. :)</p>

[anita_to]

<p>Thanks for everyone's help and input!</p>

<p>Especially out of the last few posts, I think I have decided on an FE2. My main reason behind getting a camera was so I could document my trip to Hong Kong/China this summer.</p>

<p>I chose the FE2 over just about everything else because of its aperture priority was one of the only differences between the FM2. The battery issue isn't really a problem for me since they last such a long while, it's only a problem when you have to switch batteries too much, then you're worried about it failing you in the middle of taking pictures. I will definitely keep in mind the F100 as a future purchase since it has so many features and its lens compatibility is good, and the reviews on that camera seem to be extremely favorable. Also, because my original intention was to find a manual SLR that would be an alternate option for the FM3a, I think the FE2 suits this since it's design is pretty much the same. I ended up ruling out the F3 because it's so bulky, even though most people have said they've taken some of their best work with it.</p>

<p>Either way, all the camera suggestions were great. Everyone had really great things to contribute to the discussion, so great in fact that I fell in love with more cameras that I needed. I think the FE2 should be a good choice, and I'll be excited to handle one soon!</p>

<p>P.S. That's interesting that they're selling an FM3a under $400 dollars at KEH, it's still over my budget, sad to say, but there's at least some hope out there that there are reasonable® prices outside of ebay. I happen to plan on purchasing most of my items through ebay because a lot of the packages I am looking at include flash and lenses (so there's no worry in the lens department).</p>

<p>Thanks very much again!!<br>

-Anita To</p>

[lex_jenkins]

<p>Sounds like you gave this a lot of thought, Anita. Best of luck to you.</p>

[ShunCheung]

<p>Yeah, good luck Anita. You might want to pick your lenses carefully in order to maintain backward and forward compatibility.</p>

[lou korell]

<p>FM2N would be my choice. Has to be my all time favorite film camera....and I have had a few including:<br>

Hasselblad 503CW, 500CM, Nikon FTn, F3T, F4s, F6, N4004, N2000, FE, FG, FA...all I can remember. If I were going out into the wilds for an extended period the FM2N would be my choice over all of these. With a couple of great lenses, you can do almost anything.</p>

 

[kivis]

<p>Good choice. BTW I have a friend whose son has the FE-10 (not even made by Nikon) and has really beat it up and it works perfectly. His photos are stunning. Cost $129 new.</p>