Who will be first to produce a LCD VF advanced amateur camera, Canon or Nikon?

[harvey_edelstein1]

<p>The current EVR's based on high definition 1.4mp viewfinders are good the next generation should be<br>

even better. The advantage of not having a mirror and associated shake, the convient in VF histogram, the large bright vf even in low light. All these are going to be better going forward. Will Nikon or Canon come up with an interchangable lens HD lcd vr camera first.</p>

[Matt Laur]

<p><em>large bright vf even in low light<br /></em><br />That's the <em>last</em> thing I want when working in a low-light environment. Illuminated viewfinders like that really mess with night vision. I surely prefer a fast lens and an optical finder.</p>

[peterblaise]

<p>.</p>

<p>Panasonic beat all.</p>

<p>Harvey, do you think of all "other" manufacturer's as mere R&D for Canon and Nikon? Some of us "real" photographers avoid Canon and Nikon like the plague and have been doing some wonderful, fulfilling photography for entire lifetimes!</p>

<p>FYI, the viewfinder resolution seems related to sensor resolution, and Minolta DSL/EVF's advanced the exact same way since 2001 before Panasonic took over the baton in 2008, with many lovely models in between from Fuji, Olympus, Casio, Panasonic and others (even Canon and Nikon). This is nothing new and nothing challenging to those of us willing to look beyond Canon and Nikon for our photographic support. We've had satisfactory DSL/EVFs for years, and Panasonic has made a swell interchangeable lens version that seems to be going gangbusters -- search for the "G1" on current photo.net for overwhelming evidence of it's capabilities and the passion of G1 shooters.</p>

<p>Canon and Nikon seem to look to each other to decide what to build next. Panasonic and others seem to look to their customers to decide what to build next. So, as far as customer support, Panasonic is doing quite nicely, thank you. Canon and Nikon could fold up and go away and it wouldn't effect many of us one wit.</p>

<p>.</p>

[john tonai]

<p>Harvey,</p>

<p>Between the two of them? Definitely one of them</p>

[john tonai]

<p>Also, I agree with Matt. I have a G1 as a supplement to my Canon 5D and found, while the EVF shows a lot of promise, the brightness of the VF is jumpy and noisy (could be fixed with future development) and there is a moment of night blindness due to the brightness. This could be helped with a red only output.</p>

[peterblaise]

<p>.</p>

<p>... besides. my close focus accommodation ain't THIS good anymore. I cannot asses my subject AND loot AT the camera back and forth (what, swapping my reading glasses on and off like mad?!?) -- I NEED all information on camera controls available through the viewfinder visible at infinity focus while looking at my subject. No optical viewfinder offers this. EVFs only need apply:</p>

<p> </p><div></div>

[hclim]

<p>Samsung has already announced a prototype APS-C model.</p>

[peterblaise]

<p>.</p>

<p>Matt, the viewfinder is bright, not the back LCD, so others don't see it, and for me it turns off on my camera when my eye is not at it (infrared sensor of eye presence) so nothing "glows in the dark" making anyone think I'm clandestinely running any electronics. Also, I can set it for amplification or "as is" so it does not have to amplify above ambient brightness if I so choose. </p>

<p>What viewfinder do you use now, and how do you asses your camera controls and setting under any lighting, especially around other people who do not expect you to turn on your own lights? I was at an astronomy telescope session and NO supplemental lights were permitted, and I had no problem with my <strong>DSL/EVF Digital Single Lens / Electronic View Finder</strong> camera.</p>

<p>... as Harvey calls an "EVR" (Electronic VieweR/ViewfindeR?). Harvey, I think "EVR" is an inappropriate abbreviation, so yes, Canon and Nikon will have EVRs first! ;-)</p>

<p>.</p>

[harvey_edelstein1]

<p>I have some manual focus lenses and even with the best screen with split image rangefinder or special full screen microprism designed for lenses f2.8 and faster the focusing could be improved in low light.<br>

I only take pictures at night where street lights provide some illumination so my night vision is not impaired. I use one of several separate meters for night lighting or use a camera which can meter time exposures and control the exposure and I am used to mirror lockup so that requires pre-setting.<br>

One would expect the next generation cameras to solve the problems with display toggling in brightness, setting the illumination levels for daylight and available light, etc. I don't see a reason to nit pick products that are not out yet. Don't we all learn lessons from observing what came before?<br>

I own Nikon gear and so I know Canon comes out first with lots of technology, Canon came out with FF dslr way ahead of Nikon, Canon had image stabilization on many lenses and silent fast focusing in lens motors before Nikon. Nikon is a very cautious company I don't expect them to jump on this technology until everyone wants it.</p>

[godfrey]

<p><img src="http://homepage.mac.com/godders/047-halfmoon.jpg" border="0" alt="" /><br /> <em>Panasonic G1 + Olympus Pen F 40mm f/1.4 lens</em> <br /><br /> Panasonic created what you're looking for a while ago, Harvey. <br /><br /> Godfrey</p>

[starvy]

<p>the problem is that there is a community of canon and nikon users who simply don't believe other manufacturers exists in the world of photography! the alternatives from other manufacturers are already out and the g1 appears to be a very capable camera. samsung's alternative would certainly be worth looking into, alternatively, olympus is long overdue its version of the evf based micro four third.</p>

[john tonai]

<p>I do use a 24mm viewfinder on the hotshoe of my G1 with the Voigtlander 12mm lens. It is an extremely slow lens, but works nicely as a ps for normal daylight. I pop on my Canon 50 1.2 with a 100 mm viewfinder for the low light stuff</p>

[Matt Laur]

<p>Peter: it <em>is</em> the bright viewfinder I'm worried about. When what you're holding up to your eye is a presentation of gathered light through a fast lens (a la an SLR), your eye has nothing to adjust to when you take the camera away from it. When the viewfinder is an active (and brioghter) <em>source</em> of light, it impacts your ability to see in the ambient conditions.<br /><br />The issue of a bright camera-back LCD is a separate thing (and definitely annoying to those around the shooter). I'm thinking strictly of the to-the-eye viewfinder, here.</p>

[peterblaise]

<p>.</p>

<p>... hence the ability to set the EVF to NOT amplify, rather, to display according to ambient, so there is no need for our eyes to accommodate different brightness levels inside and outside the viewfinder. Your choice.</p>

<p>Alternatively, I have no choice with an optical viewfinder to amplify, focus in the dark, see black and white, magnify for focus accuracy check, and so on. Optical viewfinders are cool, but they have their limitations. Pick yer poison!</p>

<p>.</p>

[harvey_edelstein1]

<p>Srarvy I agree with you that Nikon and Canon fans can rest on their laurels but at their risk. Sony, Panasonic and Samsung are big consumer companies with their own chip and electronics fabs. If you don't have a healthy paranoia (Andy Grove former Intel CEO) you are not going to stay on top in this field very long. <br>

Reading posts on Rangefinder Forum the owners like the G1 finder in the main but many have not liked the toggling of the vf from dim to bright. Many have already sold their G1 for one reason or another, if you doubt what I am saying go do some searches for older posts over at that site. Many are using the Oly and Panasonic lenses but many are using various legacy glass and a variety of adapters.<br>

But this is the way to go, no doubt in my mind. If you are patient you might want to see what Samsung comes up with.<br>

One question I have is if it pays to sell my Nikon glass because without a mirror all the glass will have to have an adapter to fill in the space that the mirror box took up. I am sure there will new lenses that will likely be sharper then current glass especially in the wide angle range. Rangefinder lenses were smaller and sharper because the designers could work closer to the film with the backfocus distance. These new cameras give you the same mirrorless stability of a rangefinder without the inaccuracy of the rangefinders while close focusing (parallex). <br>

Eventually the current majors will find these electronic companies breathing down their necks and the market will shift. Even faster if the new guys all have sensor based image stabilization, in the viewfinder histograms and liveview. <br>

The next generation products must fix the tearing on paning the camear, the brightness toggling etc. and I am sure that they will. I remember that LCD displays had blur when the screen action moved rapidly and now the technology has faster screens that don't smeer and the LCD are getting true black tones like the Plasma screens. The next generation will also probably solve the white balance and dynamic range issues current cameras have too.</p>

[godfrey]

<p><img src="http://homepage.mac.com/godders/051-tapped.jpg" border="0" alt="" /><br /> <em>Panasonic G1 + Olympus G.Zuiko 40mm f/1.4</em><br /> <br /> Peter, <br /> <br /> The G1's viewfinder and LCD track the ambient light (unless you force them to do otherwise) and try to keep the relative illumination at a reasonable level. Aside from that, it attempts as best possible to keep the viewfinder illumination perceptually constant. Some don't like that because it means it doesn't function well as an exposure estimator, but I like it because it keeps the focusing and framing visibility at a manageable level. I use the histogram as an exposure guide, not the viewfinder brightness. <br /> <br /> I don't know what Harvey is going on about... <br /> <br /> Godfrey</p>

[harvey_edelstein1]

<p>Godfrey on this point I didn't as you said carry on I succinqtly refer those interested in reading owners views and reviews to search Rangefinderforum. As I have done.</p>

[bill_tuthill]

How much are these photographers on the Rangefinder forum purportedly asking for their Panasonic G1s? I could not find aforesaid forum(s). I'd like to buy a used G1, but have never seen one for sale, though I have looked, so please help me, Harvey.

[harvey_edelstein1]

<p>Bill I don't know but the post I believe was started by Steve Gandy he wanted to know why quite a few who purchased the G1 had already sold it so soon. <br>

I think you could do a wanted to buy add and see what you get back. I was surprised that so many replied that they had sold theirs off. I was also surprised that the camera finished so low on the DXOmark ranking, not that it matters much outdoors in lots of light. Panasonic has a big jump on the competition with the G1 and whatever the reason for people selling off their gear that always happens.<br>

Over the years so many people said that they were sorry for selling this camera they used to own of that camera that its just a gear junkies habit. All it takes is one thing somebody doesn't like personally which may be something someone else likes and does not mean the camera isn't great. Check KEH, a lot of these camera gearheads like to deal with them instead of directly with others.</p>

[bill_tuthill]

Thanks, Harvey. It is the Leica & Rangefinder forum, although I can't find the thread where people are selling the G1 although I did find many where they are enjoying it. KEH doesn't have it.

[harvey_edelstein1]

<p>I remember reading it about two weeks back, I don't know how you search specifically for a phrase over their. Maybe just post a question about that thread and someone will find it for you. <br>

I'm sure lot of people like the camera. I was surprised that the new 7-14mm lens was going to sell for a thousand dollars, seems too much for a camera that is not pro level. Maybe it very good but APS-c lense cover a bigger image circle and that's the price range for a pro level APS-C lens.</p>

[godfrey]

<p>So you're saying that you heard from somewhere else that lots of rangefinder people were selling their G1s ... and you have no first hand experience, nor can you find the thread mentioning it ... and this is some kind of reason why you think the as-yet-nonexistent Samsung NX or some hypothetical alternative from Nikon or Canon is probably a better camera ... ?</p>

<p>Just what is your point, Harvey? </p>

<p>I read notes from several folks who post on the DPR Panasonic forum who tried a G1, liked the image quality and features, but decided that they preferred their other cameras more. And others who have cameras like the Nikon D300 and Canon 5D, bought a G1, and find themselves using it quite a lot because the image quality is excellent and it's a lot less to carry. So What? Nothing. That's their experience. At least they're actually using the camera and speaking from experience rather than quoting review tests and product announcement specifications ...</p>

[harvey_edelstein1]

<p>Somewhere Rangefinderforum<br>

I cited who started the thread<br>

I mostly asked whether Nikon or Canon will be first to follow this new paradigm, it was a question not a point to start a discussion, try to follow the post.<br>

I only mentioned Samsung briefly, saying it might be worth waiting to see what they release. What is your problem with saying that?<br>

The people own the product posted their views and I have faithfully kept their views without my view inteferring in any way. I am neither negative or positive on the G1 although I find that the price for the new lens is does not match the pricing for its pricepoint system. An APS-C lens can be had for much less cover that range and if I wanted to pay that much for the lens it would go along with a camera that was higher end. A nikon D90 is old style dslr but with a Sigma or Tokina lens would give me better images and as a total package I might cost the same. I know its larger and heavier but that is not a primary factor to me. I would love to see Nikon or Canon follow Panasonics lead with an improved APS-c camera, thats why I asked the question</p>

[t._zenjitsuman]

<p>Harvey, I followed your points, I didn't see any problem with what you say. I went to Rangefinderforum and found not only the post you mentioned but also lots of posts regarding the EVR lcd finder.<br>

I am actually more interested in the APS-C sized sensor since many lenses are available from third party lensmakers for more reasonable prices that have similar coverage.<br>

If anyone wants to read more they can read the Dpreview forums also. I think that since the Samsung is much slimmer than the current APS-C cameras the NX should be not much bigger than the G1, in fact many of the APS_C cameras like the D-60 are about that size and they have mirrors.<br>

Looked at the DXO ratings, if Samsung uses that same sensor as the GX I would sell my current gear since its 4 years old and APS-C that can give good IQ indoors with low noise is more important than an inch in camera size.<br>

I use histograms all the time but it would be more handy in the viewfinder. I hope that they do IS in the camera. Also, I hope that they don't process the RAW files in camera, I want the output unprocessed so I can process it when opened in the software.</p>

[dg1]

<p>My Ricoh GX200 fulfills this role just fine. No need for a Canon or Nikon, and I'm content with the Panasonic L1 for interchangeable and legacy lens use. </p><div></div>