developer(?) marks on negative

[thomas_vanhaute]

On two recently developped b/w films, i noticed trail- and

drop-like marks IN the emulsion. Its like a drop of chemical left a

trail on the film. Its NOT the mark of a dried drop of water; its

really embedded IN the emulsion - very unfortunate....

The 120 films were developped in standard Patterson tanks,

using normal procedure.

Does anyone have a clue as to what might have caused this,

and more, how to prevent it from happening in the future?

Thank you!

[joseph_ho]

how did you dry this film. i have seen this happen in the case of using a hair dryer or other ununiform accelerated drying methods.

[thomas_vanhaute]

Joseph,

I didnt use anything to dry the film: i just let it air-dry, as i always

do. And i repeat that the 'trail' is really fixed in the emulsion, not

lying on top of it, like when you get water-stains.

Im puzzled.....

thanx anyway, joseph.

[alan_woolnough]

Hello Thomas,

 

Ive got a couple of long shots, for you.

 

I lived in Scotland for about ten years, and never had any problems with my home developed film. However, since moving back to England a year ago, ive had no end of problems. My last film had small teardrop marks, with small trails, on a couple of frames. This has become increasingly worrying. Like you, these marks are not drying marks, but are actually in the emulsion. I also use 120 Black & white film, developed in patterson tanks.

 

I have also, sometimes got these marks on my prints, which makes me think it may be related to the quality of the water, here in England, compared to the Scottish water. If this is the cause, and the chemicals are mixed with impure/cloudy water, then it would possibly leave a residue in the emulsion. Ive recently bought a water filter, in the hope that it will solve it.

 

Also, i always used to presoak my films, and never had any problems. However, i stopped doing this, as Ilford said it is not neccessary, and the problems started. As from now, i am going to resume presoaking, and see what happens. I did wonder if these small tear shaped drops, were a result of tipping the developer into the tank to quickly, and causing splash marks on the film, before the developer had time to cover the film. This seems unlikely, but possible, if the water used to mix up the chemicals, is cloudy.

 

Sorry i cant be of much help. Hopefully you will get some other suggestions.

 

Cheers

[don_sigl]

There is a slight possibility that this could be caused by fixer contamination in the development stage. Fixer will cause chemical fogging during development. plastic reels and tanks are more prone to this because, believe it or not, the plastic can eventually become impregnated with chemistry. I have had this happen twice over the last twenty years. In both cases it was the top of the tank that was causing the problem. It was the only plastic I was using.

[thomas_vanhaute]

Alan,

 

Your 'teardrop' problem sounds exactly like mine. I dont know if

the Belgian water is causing this, but i doubt it: ive developped

films in it for over six years, and i ve never encountered this

problem. However, ive only started developping my 120's myself

for about a year. But i dont think the film type is relevant in this

case.

Im sure its not caused by pooring the developper on the film too

violently, because i always put the dev. in the tank first, too avoid

splashing and formation of air bubbles. I will try to use distilled

water next time, to rule out the possibility of 'dirty' water.

 

Don,

 

Your posting is interesting as well. I never knew the reel plastic

could be contaminated with chemicals, although when you think

about it, it makes sense. I will buy new reels and tanks to

eliminate that too.

But can (overal) contamination of plastics cause a distinguished

drop-like mark?? I doubt it.

Thank you guys for the ideas, and please keep em coming until i

get this sorted out!

[thomas_vanhaute]

Oh by the way, Alan; could you tell me what 'presoaking' is? I m

not sure im familiar with this technique....maybe a dumb

question, but im eager to learn so..... ;^)

[chris_tennyson]

Presoaking means putting water in the tank BEFORE the developer... just pour water in like any other chemical, and agitate like you would with developer for oh, say a minute i guess.... its not that critical i have found.... sometimes i have problems when i do it, sometimes i have problems when i dont.. ive never found any reasoning either way really.. umm one thing... i have noticed banding style marks.. similar to vertical fogging marks on my film before that was cause by the developer (i think.. maybe the water though...) rushing past the film too fast.. this I found that if i pour the chemicals in nice and smoothly it works well.. adn i kind of rotate the tank as i pour the chemicals back out... of course these are jobo tanks with 8 rolls at a time!

[pat_krentz]

I had this happen once years ago, I pre-soak everything for 5 minutes and use only distilled water for all photo processes. Pat

[chris_waller]

I know what you mean and I've experienced this in the past. I never really got to the bottom of the cause but since I started pre-soaking I've never had a recurrence. So maybe a pre-soak is the way to go.

[dk_thompson]

could be differential drying...I'm not sure if some change in room temp or humidity would have anything to do with that, but I have had this happen when using heat dryers....if the dryer is turned off too early--while a good bit of the film is still damp--the water down on the bottom of the film---I have mostly seen this with sheet films hung on edge--dries at a different density than the top edge. You can see it in the film, not on it like a watermark...it prints through like an agitation mark, but actually comes from this uneven drying....don't know if this is your problem, but something to think about anyways....

[Bill Bowes]

Hello everyone. Several inputs to possible help.

I believe the "stains" being seen are the results of drying. A blob of liquid is held by surface tension on the hanging film and drys leaving the oblong pattern. Presoaking the film prior to developing will not result in this pattern. Here are several things to try: 1. use a 2cc/liter solution of Photo-Flo (use DI water only) for a final soak (3-5 minutes). 2. After hanging the film to dry, use a fine misting pump (buy one for orchids at a nursery) with DI to rinse off the solution. Work top to bottom on each side of the film. I rinse each side 2x. Do not disturb for at least 24 hours or force air dry. Enjoy, Bill

[viktor s.]

Thomas, I had a problem very similar to yours several years back, and after the process of elimination I decided that the streaking was caused by the final PhotoFlo bath. I switched to Edwal LFN ( two minute soak with intermittent gentle agitation) and have not had the problem since.

After all the sincere "solutions" to your problems on photo.net you may have come to the conclusion that an adept voodoo daddy could do as well for you as the photo community. There is a "scientific" explanation for every one of the frustrating and baffling glitches that occur during film processing. The solution lies in knowledge, experience, and intuition.

[chris_waller]

Doug,

 

I think the problem is something to do with bromide streamers - but without testing this theory out scientifically I can't prove it. I just know it has never recurred since I began pre-soaking. But then maybe I also started wearing pure cotton socks at the same time. Like you say, sometimes we resort to voodoo and hope!

[ryuji_suzuki]

There's no bromide issue in final wash. There's no bromide or process affected by bromide at that stage.

 

Tap water may cause mineral deposit problem. It may look like inside the gelatin layer. If this is suspected try distilled water and/or reduce PhotoFlo.

 

But without seeing this kind of problem is difficult to diagnose. Good amount of detailed observation may help. There is water grit problem, air bubble and other physically uneven development problems, insufficient agitation, bromide streaking and other chemically uneven processing problems, also related to it is a border phenomenon in water bath and poor stop bath, mineral deposit problem, mechanical damage to gelatin, fogging though leaky tank or chemical contamination, wetting agent concentration issues, dusty drying area problems, etc.

 

I find people tend to give suggestions based on the problem they had if there is any resemblance to your description. Well, if there are this many possible causes, and if limited detail is given, I would rather recommend to enter a lottery :-)