Pentax Digital MF for Japan...?

[joe_jackson4]

<p><a href="http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk/news/PMA_Pentax_revives_medium_format_digital_camera_plan_news_278069.html">Linky</a> .</p>

<p>Seems it's an "official" rumour... :)</p>

[michael_elenko]

<p>Paul,<br>

thanks for the story link. Fascinating and maddening at the same time.</p>

<p>I would love to see the marketing model and data assumption set they utilized to arrive at US sales of 200 cameras per year. Perhaps the thing will be priced between Mamiya and Hasselblad? There is also an implication of having professional services (for the money one would expect those level of services). And that would be easier to ramp up one single country at a time.</p>

<p>Still, any evidence of Pentax innovating and expanding markets that truly belong to them is very encouraging.</p>

<p>ME</p>

[jgredline]

<p>HMMMMM</p>

[jptreen]

<p>It makes it interesting when it comes to turning a profit from something if you're only going to release it in one country! If Pentax only predict that they would sell 200 units in America, then I too would like to see their data on that. What's their price point? I would also like to know do they have a full system of lenses ready to re-issue?</p>

<p>Another long line in the tortuous route of Pentax doing (or not doing) anything.</p>

[miserere_mei]

<p>Gotta love official rumours :-)</p>

[miserere_mei]

<p><strong><em>We understand that Pentax Japan has decided to aim the camera at the high-end market, so it seems unlikely it will be an affordable, enthusiast-level, model. </em> </strong></p>

<p>This is a point that many who have been clamouring for a MF Pentax camera don't grasp. The K20D might cost $700, but a MF Pentax will not cost twice as much, but probably more than 4 times as much. It will certainly be more than the average price-conscious Pentaxian is willing to pay. And let's not forget the cost of lenses, be they new or old 645 lenses on Ebay.</p>

<p>Another unrelated matter is that of who needs this camera. It's not the type of camera you sling over your shoulder and go for a walk with; it would be for serious landscape shooters and studio photographers. I think 200 units for the USA sounds about right.</p>

[trw]

<p>I don't care if they "market" it as long as it's orderable. (not that I have the money right now anyways)</p>

[jtk]

<p> The "average Pentaxian" doesn't seem a very attractive market. It wants cheap cameras that'll use antique lenses, and it wants second and third-tier zooms rather than Pentax. It'd be smarter for Pentax to compete with Leica, Panasonic, and Cosina-Voigtlander.</p>

[andrewg_ny]

<p>I will certainly stay tuned. If they could charge Canon 5D Mk II or Nikon D700 prices they might sell a bunch, I think--and I'd likely be in line, selling stuff to get it. Charge Nikon D3x rates for it and its a much tougher sell for the amateur. Unfortunately I'm guessing it's more likely the latter than the former.</p>

<p>Mis, I'm going to guess that four times as much is an optimistic guess for about the bare minimum that one of these might cost. As far as lenses are concerned, I'm willing to guess that for the sales volume (and prices) we're likely talking about, Pentax could revive its FA645 production, but prices for these and used 67/645 would almost certainly climb back to pro lens prices rather than their current deep discount. If there is a conversion factor (smaller sensor), they may need to improve the wide-angle lineup which was a little on the sparse side already.</p>

<p>On a positive note (I think) on a camera like this the bar is lower in terms of technological expectations so the money goes into the sensor, not into super framerate, 89-point autofocus, HD video, weather-sealed GPS-enabled grips, advanced batteries, etc. that has come to be expected in smaller-sensored bodies. There would be some expectations as far as reasonable throughput for ginormous RAW files and tethered capabilities though.</p>

<p>I wouldn't mind seeing them make a digital back for my 645N...give me ~25 megapixels with a 3" VGA LCD for, say $1500...? There I go with the same wishful-thinking pricing I was doubting earlier in this post...wish I could home-brew this...</p>

[jptreen]

<p>the thing is...wasn't the Pentax MF kit supposed to be aimed at 'close to 35mm SLR usability'?</p>

<p>There's evidence that Digital MF is sneaking into top-end wedding photography, and if that becomes more prevelent at the top end of the market in the next few years, a reasonable, 35mm SLR-like digital MF with a low ($8,000, maybe...) cost could be just the ticket for those pros coming from Canikon looking for something that plays similar and is good value?</p>

<p>Throw in weather sealing (tried and tested on other Pentax kit) and you are unique, affordable, and easy to pick up and start shooting with.</p>

[michael_elenko]

<p>With 200 projected units (not)sold in the US, this camera is certainly not aimed at prosumers. My guess is that the cost range will be US $9500-14,000. A little below Mamiya or enough above to communicate "better." Realize that a Hasselblad costs US$42,000. My friend has one and he even let me touch it :)</p>

<p>The market for this are the working studio and commercial pros still using MF film who have goodwill towards Pentax medium format. A fair proportion of these pros would like to use their existing Pentax MF lenses. A bunch of my friends are in this boat; some have gone digital to some extent, purchasing Nikon D300s or Canon 5Ds, but save their Pentax 6x7s and 645s for serious studio and landscape work. A few others are now just getting into digital shooting (just about everyone has their negs scanned and know Photoshop and Lightroom). It's fun watching them play with their G9s and Lumix LX3s. I do notice that once these folks go digital, their time spent with film diminishes greatly.</p>

<p>It's this latter group (along with affluent hobbyists) that has a business rationale to purchase this camera, especially if they can utilize their existing lenses at least to get going. The hardware, however, is the easier part. The support services are far more challenging. Pentax will have photogs calling about every kind of issue from the camera to how Photoshop works.</p>

<p>My guess is that they will either pilot the service fulfilment in Japan themselves, or just outsource it to another company. They would be smart to include workshops and equipment loaners/tryouts like the US pro program works currently.</p>

<p>If this is accurate "news," then it will be fun to watch unfold. I've always felt that digital MF is a natural market for Pentax--superior in status to how "full-frame" now denotes pro-level equipment in the DSLR market.</p>

<p>ME</p>

 

[ken_yee]

<p>I'd guess at least $15K as well. What's the cheapest digital MF currently on the market? Probably a little less than that is what it'd come out at.<br>

It's for pros...fashion industry mostly (like the dregs on America's Top Model)...</p>

 

[michael_kuhne]

<p>I agree- the idea is very, very high-end, in a similar market as Mamiya, etc. just as it was with film. I have often seen examples from pro scenic photographers published in Pop Photo over the years, using Pentax MF film equipment. But I tend to view the advancements going on in the DSLR FF format models as perhaps reaching such a level it may well intrude upon the MF market as a viable alternative.</p>

[shots worth sharing]

<p>This is an area of photography about which I know absolutely nothing but, from the discussion here, it seems like a very interesting move. The timing may be very good for a small run of a first generation model--to be followed by the launch of a improved second generation (along with updated lenses) as the economy rebounds. Might the creation of some Pentax buzz in high pro circles also be part of the strategy?</p>

[janne_moren]

<p>Remember that even new film MF equipment is not all that cheap. A film 645NII will cost you about $2600 or so, and that's quite normal - a Pentax 67, or a Mamiya 7 or a Hasselblad film body all come into that range as well, as does the upcoming Fuji MF folder. A digital MF body for $3000 would mean that they'd throw in the sensor and all the digital bits for free. Instead consider that a digital camera has typically come in at three to four times the cost of a similar film version. That would price a digital 645D at around $10000 - say $11000, since that makes it an even million yen in Japan.</p>

<p>Of course, there's plenty of people willing and able to pay that kind of money for their hobby. After all, what does a big Harley or Honda superbike cost? Or a riding horse, or golf club membership? Or a high-end carbon frame bicycle? Or a fishing boat? The feature set will decide the uptake among hobbyists, rather than the price. And that worries me - professional MF cameras are pretty bad for hobbyists (most of whom do not primarily shoot in studio), and if they aim for the smae market this body too will be uninteresting for hobby use.</p>

 

[miserere_mei]

<blockquote>

<p>Andrew wrote: Mis, I'm going to guess that four times as much is an optimistic guess for about the bare minimum that one of these might cost.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>Actually, I was thinking of four times the introductory price of the K20D, so around $5,200. But even that isn't just optimistic, it's plain foolish. I think $10,000 would be "cheap", and $15,000 would be "expected".</p>

<p>I'm pretty sure nobody on this board would buy one. But if Pentax had released that square sensor rumour camera...we'd be all over it :-D</p>

[andrewg_ny]

<p>You can probably also add "SR" to the list of things that could be omitted. Another poster mentioned digital MF as growing for top-end wedding shooters. I suppose its possible, and I'm sure he has better information than I do. What I'm thinking though is that as smaller formats like APS-C and 24x36 continue to improve, it will continue to be tough to justify MF for this purpose...I just don't see that being a great growth opportunity for digital MF unless it gets much cheaper...more likely will remain a niche.</p>

<p>Janne, you make a good point. With the relatively low production numbers and high build spec, the bodies themselves cost considerably more. I've got to think that the shutters alone must cost several times what a smaller-sensor shutter costs.</p>

[michael_elenko]

<p>Andrew,<br>

Have you ever seen printed images in a studio or an art gallery from a Hasselblad MF digital camera?</p>

<p>ME</p>

[jpo3136b]

<p>I was thinking 10 grand, maybe, body only; at least. If this equipment is to medium format digital as my 1986-era 645 is to 120 film, then they can put whatever pricetag they want on that bad boy. More power to 'em. </p>

<p>If, [please, Lord above, don't let them make one of those Leica M8 flubs], if they do this right, that will be a groundbreaking camera. It will be worth whatever the pricetag is, and it may last for years. </p>

<p>The one thing they need to do with this; the one thing that must happen for this to go right, is to build it with an interchangeable sensor back. If a user has no way of updating the camera body by plugging in a newer, later technology, then this thing will ultimately fail. It'll already be on the conveyor belt to the garbage dump as it rolls off the factory line. If they were smart enough to build longevity into this unit; it will become the 645 to use. </p>

<p>The 120mm film 645 I own is my primo equipment. Tougher than others. With an exterior casing 1.7X thicker than it's closest competitor. I have dropped that camera out of a backpack when the zipper broke; it fell from my shoulder height, crashed onto the ground behind me, scuffing a rock on the trail. I picked it up, dusted it off, and it kept working. Not a recommended practice, but my Pentax equipment, all of it, is built like a tank!</p>

<p>I am proud of Pentax, and I hope they kick some with this 645. </p>

[andrewg_ny]

<p>Michael E., most of the gallery images I see (admittedly I don't see as much as I'd like) haven't been labeled with what kind of equipment they're produced with though may mention the print type. At any rate, I'm going to make the assumption that you're saying they're fantastic. What I'm thinking though is that few people print wedding photos so large. Even though I can imagine some wanting some really special portraits made, I suspect these demands will also be increasingly well-served by improvements in sub-MF-sized sensors.</p>

<p>I look back now and perhaps it wasn't you who was suggesting that MF-digital among wedding shooters was a growth industry...so I may be missing your point.</p>

[john_photo]

<p>I am sure they powers that be know a thing or two about predicted sales. Probably more than us consumers of gear on photo.net. They have rather sophisticated mathematical models to try and accurately gauge demand (though with the recent economic downturn these may need some serious tweaking)<br>

It wouldn't take much to build a camera that is instills more confidence than a modern mamiya (excepting their rugged 6x7 SLRs).<br>

Many years ago when I bought into 645 I remember handling and shooting with models from mamiya, pentax, bronica, and contax. I ended up with the bronica but the Pentax 645N was the best built. The Mamiya was the most fragile by leaps and bounds. Of course I have no regrets buying some of my Bronica gear new on a student purchase as its seen a rough life via professional and field use and held up wonderfully.<br>

As for the comment about the 645n2 selling at 2600 dollars... I bet they sell around 5 of those a year..full frame digital has taken over this part of the market.</p>

<p> </p>

[musings]

<p>This "on again/off again/on again/off again" crap is driving me insane...make up your bloody mind, already...I am ready to write a check for it.</p>

[rose_duclos]

<p>If I knew a digital MF were coming out - and it was in the 8K or less - I'd definitely start saving for it... Put a couple of tax returns together, and not buy any 'extra' lenses for a year or two - and it's a do-able price-tag for what could be an amazing camera. </p>

<p>Surely I could prevent myself from my LBA for a few years... I wouldn't consider spending higher than 8K though... It may just be me - but the bargain shopper in me just can't imagine dropping double digits on anything... Not even cars... :)</p>

 

[andrewg_ny]

<p>Anyone who wants to get in on this in the sub-$10K range can buy a used late model digital back for (usually) Mamiya or Hasselblad, probably in the 17-25mp range. I'd guess you can find something for $5K, camera/lens not included. Save up, gang!</p>

[a few images]

<p>Ah, the only thing to keep me from buying a new FF from Pentax, is of course a new MF from Pentax..<br>

It looks like my 645 lens hoarding might pay off..<br>

$8k for the body is my guess.</p>