jimpete Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 <p> My exposures on my Mamiya 7 11 are fine for color film using the in camera meter, but I am having trouble with using black and white. I just started trying black and white. I am using Ilford Pan F 50 and using the AEL mode. The ISO setting is definitely on 50. I have wasted three rolls and am scratching my head. Everything comes out way over exposed (about two stops) and not useable. Any thoughts or advice? I am going to try some 100 black and white film. Maybe it will be easier to use, but really shouldn't be any reason why I couldn't use the 50. Thanks for any help. Jim</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brucecahn Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 <p>If you are 2 stops overexposed, reduce the exposure to 1/4. Actually you should do a test roll at all speeds from 12 to 200 and see which is closest to what you want. Then set your camera or meter to that speed.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbass_wil Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 <p><P>Bruce, I think Jim wants a clue as to why the metering on B&W is so vastly different than for color film -- it sure doesn't make much sense.</P><P>I've never touched a Mamiya, but I seem to remember reading that the meter is (oddly) a spot meter -- have I got that?</P><P>You know who's a big fan of the M. 7 (and 6) is Ken Rockwell. You could go to his site kenrockwell.com and contact him. He doesn't answer all email, but his attention might be caught by an odd technical problem like this. Good luck. </P></p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pbass_wil Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 <p>Sorry for the html tags, I screwed up.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berlinhennig Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 <p>Are you shure that you did not move the exposure compensation accidentally?<br> I had this case at my M6 a few weeks ago and I still do not know how that could happened. But by noticing it before the development process I could handle it. Otherwise I would have had the same problem you describe here.<br> Better checking this anyway!</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david_henderson Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 <p>If the film speed is being correctly set its not going to be the case that the camera meters right for colour film and not for b&w. </p> <p>The meter in the Mamiya 7 is pretty hard to use with slide film, so I'm going to take a guess that by "colour film" you mean neg film. Neg film has a wide exposure tolerance- wider than most b&w film. Is your assessment that your metering is ok with colour film based on looking at prints? If so I have news that you may not like, and that is that your processor/printer is "rescuing" your colour prints - a task made easier by the wide latitude of the film. Its not to hard to make a decent set of prints from colour neg film overexposed a stop or two. </p> <p>So I think you need to consider the possibility that you have a problem (user or camera) with the Mamiya 7 meter that affects all films. The meter is quite strongly centre weighted, and where to aim it whilst you meter requires quite a bit of experience- experience which you're not going to get by looking at prints that may have enjoyed some exposure adjustment at print stage. Its certainly nowhere near the same as using the inbuilt metering of a modern slr/dslr. Also the metering pattern is not through the lens and is exactly the same no matter which lens you fit, so with a wide angle its close to a fat spot; but with the 150mm lens fitted a small proportion of the reading used by the camera comes from outside the frame altogether. </p> <p>So, its possible that the b&w films are your first real ability to see how the combination of you and your Mamiya 7 meter are actually working together. Personally, with several lenses all of which effectively have a different degree of centre weighting, I don't use the Mamiya meter at all, preferring a spot meter that at least enables me to fix what the reading is taken from. So you either have to learn its nuances and get to use it well, or opt out as I have done. </p> <p>It is possible that you have a meter problem, but I'd rather go with the "user" hypothesis to start with since its free to fix and needs doing regardless. Its also not hard to test for by aiming a shot or two at a plain, evenly lit mid toned object ( a wall, grass, etc) and taking a couple of shots using the meter. If they're ok then so is the meter. <br> Finally are you sure that a couple of stops over on the b&w negs means that they are useless? A good b& w printer might well be able to make something of these. The test is to look at the negs and see whether there is enough detail in the highlight areas to make a decent print.</p> <p> </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dustin McAmera Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 If your colour pictures have been good over more than a few rolls, that suggests the meter's working. And very few of us are carrying different meters for B&W. So what's different for the B&W is the <i>developing</i>, surely? Who's doing that for you, and have you had B&W done by them before? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rod_sainty2 Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 <p>Jim, all the advice above looks good. My suggestions: First, check the exposure compensation lever is set on the zero point. Then, check the camera meter against the meter in another camera. For this, best change the M7II off AEL mode and onto a set speed, such as 1/125th, point the camera at an evenly lit outside wall and find the aperture setting required to give a correct exposure (so the set shutter speed indication in the viewfinder stops blinking). Do the same for another camera or a hand-held meter. The two meters should agree to within about a half-stop. Ideally, get a 18% reflectance card and meter that under full sun (close up, so as to exclude any other brightness level such as a bright pavement or deep shadow behind the card). Here, the meter should read as per the "sunny 16" rule: say, using ISO set to 125, and shutter set to 1/125th, the aperture indicated should be f16. This should nail the meter as correct or out. Lastly, to check something else is not causing the problem, shoot a test roll of transparency (slide) film in order to avoid the latitude of colour negative film or mistakes during hands-on B&W development. For this last, shoot blue sky and simple, evenly lit objects using the meter recommendation (again, using the set shutter speed approach I suggested above) and bracket your exposures either side of the "correct" aperture indicated by the meter (keeping careful notes). </p> <p>As David said above, the M7II meter is strongly centre-weighted. With my camera, the most sensitive spot is not at the rangefinder's double-image rectangle (where it should be), but displaced downwards and a little to the right. You can check yours by pointing the camera towards a single light bulb at night and finding the position at which the meter indicates the fastest speed required at any aperture. Thereafter, meter your photos using that same position relative to the object of interest. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimpete Posted February 28, 2009 Author Share Posted February 28, 2009 <p> Thanks for the helpful answers. Yes D.O. it is possible the exposure compensation dial was bumped/moved, but I didn't notice that. I have noticed it is easy to bump this out with this camera so have to be careful with that. I have done that before. For David's response I am using color slide 100/120 fuji velvia so I guess the stuff about negatives and trying to have the printer compensate doesn't apply here. I agree that the meter can be hard to use with slide film. I have gotten better results with color using the AEL mode. Most of them are keepers. Maybe something to do with the shutter speed being stepless as opposed to when you use it manual. Is that true? I don't have a scanner or printer and am kind of poor so try to get it right the first time. Chrome in San Diego does my lab work. Anyway, back to my black and white. The rolls I took were pretty much in normal lighting. I wasn't trying to do anything fancy. They should have come out fine. They were sent to the lab not all at once but at different times and they were all overexposed. Pete, it is possible that the lab screwed up on all of them, but I am now leaning to some sort of operator error. I will just have to be more careful and may have to "opt out" of the camera meter like David and do own spot metering and use a light meter. I'll just have to go out more and get more in tune with the camera. I have heard of salvaging overexposed black and white transparencies. Would you try to fix it in the scanner or printer stage? Also, am new to this forum and have enjoyed learning about the Mamiya from you folks the last few months. I have the 80 only, but I am a landscape guy and it isn't wide enough. Hope to get both the 65 and 43 someday! Want to make 16X20 prints. Jim </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimpete Posted February 28, 2009 Author Share Posted February 28, 2009 <p>Thanks for the info Rod. I do have another camera and will check the meter off that. Good idea.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimpete Posted February 28, 2009 Author Share Posted February 28, 2009 <p>Hey Rod, the two meters are pretty darned close with the same speed film so it most likely is some operater error that I will have to figure out. Thanks!</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougmiles Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 <p>Given your success with slide film (which is notoriously picky about correct exposure), I suggest your meter and exposure methods are probably fine. Color processing is very standardized, the same for all color reversal film, and a different same process for all negative film. This is not true for black and white film, however; each film and developer solution means custom handling. I suspect that your lab is giving the B&W film their "standard" black & white processing, not customized for your film. Bottom line, it seems to me your film is over-developed, not over-exposed. Good luck!</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berlinhennig Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 <blockquote> <p>I suspect that your lab is giving the B&W film their "standard" black & white processing, not customized for your film.</p> </blockquote> <p>That could be a good possibility too - nowadays (and the ILFORD PAN F is anything else than a standard b/w film). To figure that out without crossing the whole state, try out one roll of the <strong>ILFORD XP2 <em>Super</em> </strong> which is a <strong>b/w</strong> C-41 processed film. That means that any <em><strong>color</strong> </em> lab can handle the development with their equipment and todays skills without any problems. And the pictures - by the way - are pretty good too.<br /> <br /> <img src="http://www.berlinhennig.de/photonet/_MF_0022.jpg" alt="" /></p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougmiles Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 <p>Good suggestion to try XP2 Super; I like and use that film. For the Pan F films already shot - and if you can confirm they are overdeveloped - there is a fix to make them more usable, not a total loss. There's a chemical product called Farmer's Reducer that removes excess negative density caused by overdevelopment. I used it many years ago, yet see it's still available, for example from B&H:<br> http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/27632-REG/Kodak_1691492_Farmer_s_Reducer.html</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gt1 Posted March 1, 2009 Share Posted March 1, 2009 <p>Jim should be able to tell if his b&w negs are overdeveloped, right? If there is a lot of density between frames then it was overdeveloped? I'm a newbie here.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimpete Posted March 2, 2009 Author Share Posted March 2, 2009 <p>Doug and D.O. Thanks for the continued advice. Will try it out. Cool street shot D.O.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berlinhennig Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 <p>Jim,<br> Thx and you're welcome. Please keep us inform if you have a result.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wai_leong_lee Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 <p>Just because a camera gives good exposures on slides doesn't mean the metering is fine for negs.</p> <p>For slides the metering should take account of the highlights, for negs it should handle the shadows.</p> <p>According to KR, the M7 has a spot meter, so you have to learn how to use it properly.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berlinhennig Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 <blockquote> <p>Just because a camera gives good exposures on slides doesn't mean the metering is fine for negs.</p> </blockquote> <p>Won't believe this. I bought my M6 from a guy who made <strong>slides only</strong> . He send me some of his old slides with the camera and they were perfect.<br> I make <strong>b/w negatives solely</strong> and they are as good as <em>my skills as the operator</em> will admit it (I hate self praises).</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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