jpo3136b Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 <p>Okay, I do not use photoshop; but I use a similar program called Aperture, so if the names of the computer stuff is inaccurate on this, I apologize. Many photographers use photoshop, as you do, so they'd be able to pinpoint the names of the functions if I am off. </p> <p>The yellow light thing. Not to get too involved, but what you're thinking about is color temperature. There are a couple of different ways color temperature can be discussed; the kind you want has to do with heat; the one you want is called "White Balance." You might see a slider or an adjustment menu of some kind that would be labeled in degrees Kelvin. Candlelight, which is very yellow, will come in at about 2800 Kelvin. Tungsten, like a regular incandescent lightbulb, will be about 3200K. Natural sunlight will be right on 5000K Florescent lighting will be about 5600K+.</p> <p>In photoshop, to edit out a "yellow" or "blue" look to the photo overall, you want to find the adjuster for white balance. If the photo is too yellow, like yours, increase the temperature towards "blue" white; which means you'll probably see a readout that'll be centered at 5000K, but then you will increase it to probably about 5100K or 5200K. </p> <p>This kind of color temperature is discussed in degrees Kelvin because the temperature is associated with color. Like, blue flames and red hot metal, etc. Let's not get too deep into that; but, in lighting, too keep your life easy, you are going to want to strive for 5000K; looking like natural sunlight to the color of the light. </p> <p>If you come across a reference about temperature and color or light, and it's not in degrees Kelvin and directly about photography; that is a different system that has nothing to do with your problem. If you get into color temperature systems, you will get confused and waste time. So, it's "<b>White Balance</b>" that you want. </p> <p>There are some kinds of cameras that will usually offer an in-camera adjustment for white balance; kind of skip over those controls until you tinker with white balance on some practice images in postprocess. Once you fiddle around with it a couple of times, you'll start to get it. A computer will usually show you the change to the image as soon as you apply it; so the coaching on color temperature will go faster because you'll see immediate results. </p> <p>Since you're illuminating with lights that are coming up colder than 5000k, you may have to push the adjustment over to overshoot a little. </p> <p>I couldn't see the picture in the attachment. Yes, if you hang a sheet like a curtain a few feet in front of the lights, it will help to soften the shadows. If you put the sheet directly over the light; it won't really achieve anything. Sometimes you will see "diffusers" that are real close to a camera flash or a light. Most of that stuff is bogus. The pro photographers will want diffusers and reflectors that are away from the light some; and, they will get into adjusting the distance from the light to the diffuser or reflector. </p> <p>Like, you ever get your portrait made and saw the photographer using umbrellas to bounce light around? Okay, how close the umbrella is to the flash; or, how close a "softbox" "diffuser" is to a light source is something photographers like to adjust. If the diffuser or reflector is close to the light source, it'll seem like the light source is little and strong; more likely to cast a shadow. If it's backed off the lamp some, the light source will be bigger, but weaker. The big, weak light source will have the soft edges to the shadow. For product photography, like you're doing, you're going to favor big, weak light most of the time. So, a bedsheet about two to three feet in front of the halogen lights would work out great. In fact, over at Strobist, I did see a picture of a setup a guy did in his living room just like that; it worked out great. </p> <p>Alright, let's slip in one more refinement; when you are setting up the lights, how close they are to the subject matters. Instead of me trying to write a bunch of stuff trying micromanage the light placement (I know I'm wordy), try this; first, put the lights where you think they'll need to go kind of like, "Rough Draft." Maybe take some test snaps. Since you have a digital camera you can use the screen to check your work as you go. Then, you might need to move the lights around some. Then, go for the final setup plan. Tinker, check, then refine into the good shot. </p> <p>Okay, because I couldn't see the photo, I think I understand that you want to change the light source because the next round of photos looked too different from the first? That might make sense; depends on how you want to setup the later shots. I would consider going with the portable, movable lights, and write off a previous, successful shot; but, I cannot see, so I do not know for sure. </p> <p>I'll tell you this; remember the white balance stuff, above? When you route electricity through a lightbulb, you are basically setting that filament or gas in the tube on fire. It's a controlled fire and you can turn it on and off, but basically, it's a fire. What burns in that fire determines how hot the fire will be. Like gasoline would burn hotter than wood coals that are glowing red. Okay, so now think about the temperature gauge on the "White Balance." Because you've got more than one kind of lightbulb in there, there's more than one kind of "white balance" temperature contributing to the photo.</p> <p>Kind of like filling up the bathtub with hot and cold water at the same time. We do it everyday and don't think about it. So, with lights; you may not need total darkness. But, what you will want will be to have a dominant light source. When it comes to reflecting light off of the cabinet doors, one kind of lightbulb will need to be the boss. That will keep the setup simpler. Now, photographers do tinker with more than one kind of light source, but, let's nix that for a while. For the time being, it'll help to simplify the kind of lights involved in the setup. </p> <p>I'm sure you are doing well. I can tell you are improving. Now that we talked about white balance a little, if you go back up to the top of the thread, you'll see about James Dainis telling you to take the doors outside. He's giving you directions that would put the doors in 5000K-colored white light. If you are going to stick with the halogens, that'll be okay, but you'll need to tinker with the white balance. Dainis was also talking about that stuff. See how the practice setups help to understand the concepts? Now that you've done a couple of test shots, you are already starting to see into the problem. As you define the problem, you'll begin to see ways to get it resolved. </p> <p>Since you're having to post some photos, have you tried the photo galleries here at photonet? Pretty much everyone who has an account gets one. You could make a folder and upload your pics to it. Then, go into the folder, click on the pick, and then copy/paste what's in the browser bar into the thread. You are allowed to upload bigger pics to the portfolio gallery than you can put in the thread. If you are using Microsoft Picture Editor during the upload process, I think there is a setting in there called "Web - large" or "Web - small." You will want the one that's going to be about 400 pixels for the threads. If you try to put them in smaller or into a portfolio folder, it'll be easier for us to see your photographs. </p> <p>Keep on, keepin' on! I will check back, but I should close now so that other people can talk. J.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James G. Dainis Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Halogen bulbs give a yellow cast. Your eye/brain may compensate for it but the camera picks it up. Shining a yellow light through a white sheet will still give a yellow cast. You have to learn to set the white balance to eliminate the yellow cast when taking the picture. You might try the auto white balance settings in the camera. Halogen bulbs are still tungsten or incandescent. Set the camera white balance for tungsten/incandescent and see if that works. If not then you will have to custom set the white balance according to the user manuals instructions. James G. Dainis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmyp Posted February 27, 2009 Author Share Posted February 27, 2009 <p>Sorry, here is the door that was in the thread. Thanks John for letting me know about the portfolio. I got right onto the forums and really haven't explored the site any more than that.<br> <img src="http://d6d2h4gfvy8t8.cloudfront.net/8647730-lg.jpg" border="0" alt="f/8 1/8sec iso100- w/ work lights" width="299" height="448" /></p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nogub Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 <p>You could make some macro shots and maybe one fits ok in the website.<br> For complete shots you can get a piece of black velvet (or any color that fits with the door), and place it like if it was a backdrop in a studio. If you don't know how they are placed, just search in google images backdrop studio and you'll get it there.<br> When you make the shots, set the illumination so no shades of the door are seen in the picture. You can light it form the top or using two light sources, one at each side and both with the same power and same angle with respect with the door.</p> <p>Good luck</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpo3136b Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 <p>That shot definitely needs the color correction. Unless it's that peach color; tweak it up. Noel's right about the background, too. Will check back later. J.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmiller974 Posted March 3, 2009 Share Posted March 3, 2009 <p>I usually reset the custom color balance everytime I take new product pictures. I get good colors and my whites are white (sounds like a laundry detergent commercial). Anyway, one of the problems I have with my products, (athletic sneakers) is my "whites" blend in with the background (white) and you can't see a defined edge.<br> I will look for the aforementioned book, but is there really a way to separate the whites on the sneaker from the white background? I use white to make it easier to remove the background in photoshop (CS3).<br> -T.M.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpo3136b Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 <p>Well, Todd, I don't know this for a fact, but what about deliberately doing what Tim did, above; except maybe pump up the intensity on it a bit. Like, run a tungsten style light on one item, and a 5000K+ on another? The white objects would each have a different cast; maybe you could keep some, and edit some of it out in postprocess. Also, if you did this with mastery; there's an old rule in painting about color temperature changes (not to be confused with white balance temperatures) being used to thrust an area forward in an illustration. Main idea for that rule is, the minority area will stand out; so, if you had bluish white light in the background, and a yellowish/orange white light (3200K) on the subject, the subject would appear separated and forward. </p> <p>Understand, I have never achieved this in a photo; I did do a painting once that involved keying and lightly tinting some whites; using temperature was effectively how I was trying to sketch out my object. My painting really has no value; but, I have seen that it can be done. I bet a good photographer who invested an afternoon in tinkering with this approach could probably figure out if it could be done, and how practical it would be. </p> <p>Removing background automatically makes me think of Chroma Key Green; but, I don't know anything about that, either. Somebody does. In fact, I want to say that there are programs out now that advertise "Chroma Key Green" compatibility. Maybe the digital darkroom guys would know. </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmyp Posted March 11, 2009 Author Share Posted March 11, 2009 <p>Well, I know it has been a bit since I have posted any new trials. Here is my most recent stab at it. I changed locations for practicallity purposes. The picture info was f/11 1/3sec 100iso. This photo was taken with Bright White Florescent bulbs (60watt) in calmp lights with 2 below the door on each side shining up and one (100watt) in the center up above shining down at the light. There is also a regular florescent light fixture with tube light that sits in an acoustical ceiling in the room that is close to right above the door. If it makes things easier I can take a picture of my setup to give you a better idea. I see kind of a blue cast on the door, but I'm nearing insanity as I switch different bulbs and etc...and it seems like no matter what I get a cast of some sort some where. I guess that is whey shooting white objects is so difficult. Your thoughts?<br> <a href="http://www.photo.net/photo/8710176"><img src="http://d6d2h4gfvy8t8.cloudfront.net/8710176-sm.jpg" border="0" alt="8710176" width="133" height="199" /></a></p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James G. Dainis Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 How did you set the white balance? I already suggested that and using a gray card to get the correct exposure. James G. Dainis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmyp Posted March 16, 2009 Author Share Posted March 16, 2009 <p>I set the WB to Tungsten Light. I know you mentioned that the gray card thing, but I'm not exactly sure what I am to do with that. Also, I will need to purchase one...any recommendations? Thanks for your help and patience James.<br> Tim</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James G. Dainis Posted March 16, 2009 Share Posted March 16, 2009 You buy a gray card at a camera store. You place the gray card on the door front. You aim the camera at the gray card so all the gray fills the viewfinder or the LCD panel. You note the indicated f stop and shutter speed that the camera meter gives you. This is the correct exposure for the lights you are using. You set the camera to manual and use those indicated settings. If the gray card gave you f/4 at 1/100 sec.shutter speed, you set the camera to manual and set the aperture to f/4 and the shutter speed to 1/100. Read this: http://www.geocities.com/dainisjg/exposure.html The camera meter does a good job when shooting backyard barbecue outings. There are lots of lights and darks for the meter to home in on and average out. When all it sees is a bright white door all it knows is it is too light and so darkens it down. You said you were using fluorescent lights and yet you used tungsten on the white balance setting. Tungsten is the same as incandescent, screw in light bulbs. They give a yellow light. Go outside your house at night and look at the windows from a distance. You will see that the light coming out is yellow not white. Yellow light on a white door makes a yellow door. Fluorescent fixtures give off a greenish light. The tungsten white balance setting on the camera may work well to correct the yellow cast or it may not. The fluorescent white balance setting on the camera may work well to correct the greenish cast or it may not. Check your owner's manual to see how to custom set the white balance. That is better than trying to rely on the preset white balances. Using a gray card to manually set the correct exposure and also setting the custom white balance is the first thing you have to do. There is no sense in worrying about setups and backdrops if all your photos are going to come out dark green or yellow because you didn't use the right exposure and white balance setting. James G. Dainis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmyp Posted March 18, 2009 Author Share Posted March 18, 2009 <p>I ordered one online and when that arrives, I will update you on how I'm doing. I really do appreciate the feedback and help.<br> Tim</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmyp Posted March 25, 2009 Author Share Posted March 25, 2009 <p>Ok, I received my grey card in the mail and I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong. I metered (had the camera set on Auto) the grey card, with the grey card filling the entire view finder. It metered F5.6 1/60. I then took a picture of the door with those settings and it came out like this<br> <a href="http://www.photo.net/photo/8835311"><img title="metered 3_25" src="http://d6d2h4gfvy8t8.cloudfront.net/8835311-sm.jpg" border="0" alt="metered 3_25" hspace="5" width="134" height="199" /></a><br> I then custom set my WB to this picture and took another picture and this is what I got.<br> <a href="http://www.photo.net/photo/8835279"><img src="http://d6d2h4gfvy8t8.cloudfront.net/8835279-sm.jpg" border="0" alt="" hspace="5" width="135" height="199" /></a><br> I'm not sure...but is the grey card just used to get the correct exposure and not have anything to do with the WB or is it used for both? What is my next step? Thanks so much in advance for your continued help.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmyp Posted March 25, 2009 Author Share Posted March 25, 2009 <p>I think I might have metered it wrong. When I was metering I was holding down the button half way. I tried it again and just pushed it half way and let go. I could see difference because one way if I moved the camera around it stayed on 1/60th but the other way it adjusted. Anyway, so the the new exporsue I recevied was f5.6 1/15. Here is a picture with those settings. WB staying the same as the last picture.<br> <a href="http://www.photo.net/photo/8835455"><img src="http://d6d2h4gfvy8t8.cloudfront.net/8835455-sm.jpg" border="0" alt="8835455" width="134" height="199" /></a></p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmyp Posted March 25, 2009 Author Share Posted March 25, 2009 <p>In the couple pics I just posted was done with an overhead fluorescent light with work lights place around it also shining on the door with florescent bulbs. This picture I turn off the above light and just had the 4 work lights on it. I think the bulbs in the overhead light are casting a red/orange on the door because w/o the light it seems to be blue. I did meter it again with the grey card and it gave me f5.6 1/13.<br> <a href="http://www.photo.net/photo/8835752"><img src="http://d6d2h4gfvy8t8.cloudfront.net/8835752-sm.jpg" border="0" alt="f5.6 1/13" width="134" height="200" /></a></p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James G. Dainis Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 You should set the white balance with only one type of lighting not mixed fluorescent and incandescent. Read the manual on how to custom set the white balance, not rely on the auto white balance. Your last photo of the door looks a bit dark. Try f/4 @ 1/13 sec. with the same lighting. James G. Dainis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmyp Posted March 25, 2009 Author Share Posted March 25, 2009 <p>I thought I set a custom WB in the prior pics just like this one. I set everything up, re-metered it and this is what I got on f5.6 @ 1/30 sec. I didn't see your last sentance about f/4 @1/13 sec, so I will try that and post, but here is the pic I just did.<br> <a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/timprust/UntitledAlbum?feat=directlink#5317232185738574578">http://picasaweb.google.com/timprust/UntitledAlbum?feat=directlink#5317232185738574578</a><br> I was informed that I am unable to post anymore pics on here because I'm not a subscriber.<br> TP</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmyp Posted March 25, 2009 Author Share Posted March 25, 2009 <p>Here is the same lighting as the pic you were talking about but with f/4.5 @ 1/13 sec. My camera must only go to a f/4.5 (Canon Rebel Xti). <br> <a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/oUxTHJrs3yNGz6hS_Gm4Yw?feat=directlink">http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/oUxTHJrs3yNGz6hS_Gm4Yw?feat=directlink</a></p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James G. Dainis Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 It is still looking a bit gray. Try f/4.5 @ 1/8 sec and then f/4.5 @ 1/4 sec. You are very close. James G. Dainis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmyp Posted March 26, 2009 Author Share Posted March 26, 2009 <p>Here is f/4.5 1/8 sec<br> <a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/ThaJym1VfnI2EXwCQt8aXw?feat=directlink">http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/ThaJym1VfnI2EXwCQt8aXw?feat=directlink</a><br> and f/4.5 1/4 sec<br> <a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/pxNlIoic4ynJZp4EBQ7l2A?feat=directlink">http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/pxNlIoic4ynJZp4EBQ7l2A?feat=directlink</a></p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James G. Dainis Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 the f/4.5 @ 1/8 sec looks good exposure wise. Now you have to try to make the door details stand out better by getting more shadows into the routed areas. Moving the lights more to the side will help with that. Did you place the gray card flat against the door front when you metered the gray card? If you move the lights closer or further away then you will have to check the exposure again with the gray card. James G. Dainis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmyp Posted March 26, 2009 Author Share Posted March 26, 2009 <p>Currently I have 3 work lights set up. One on each side shining up and one in the center above the door shining downward. Do you think its possible to have the detail shadowed on each side of the inside raised panels? How much lighting would I need for that? Seems that i would need lighting shooting at each angle towards the top and bottom and frankly that just seems like a ton of light. (and a lot of work lamps clamped all over the place.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James G. Dainis Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 Try eliminating the middle light and just go with a light on each side slightly above the mid point of the door. James G. Dainis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmyp Posted March 26, 2009 Author Share Posted March 26, 2009 <p>I did what you suggested and this is what I got (f/5.6 1/20sec). I'm not sure if you can see it or if you can blow it up but I do get pretty good shadowing overall for the door. I think I may need do some tweeking with the exposure now thought cause it seems dark. Thoughts?<br> <a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/cYIPXhJJJhy4lXaBk3FpqQ?feat=directlink">http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/cYIPXhJJJhy4lXaBk3FpqQ?feat=directlink</a></p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmyp Posted March 26, 2009 Author Share Posted March 26, 2009 <p>The top is also a bit darker then the rest</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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