wedding-photography-denver Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 <p>Following our contest and subsequent results, I am curious as to who will be revisiting their portfolio, and comparing it to what the "winning" images offered? Or to put it another way, do you think you will try to adapt how you shoot to include more of what the winning images showed?</p> <p>Hope that comes across clearly.</p> <p>I ask this as the first thing I did was to make my own evaluation of the winning shots and tried to remember what really struck me when I looked through the submissions (side note to Mary: why were those threads pulled?). There were only twp of the six that won, that I imagined would make the cut to the final, and that surprised me quite a little (though I don't claim the eye of the venerable judges we have).</p> <p>Thoughts?</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_whitcomb1 Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 <p>Nope! I loved the images but I don't think the industry is going to continue in the "photojournalistic" direction. We've already had consultations where the bride is wondering if we do more fashionable type images, like the ones in the magazines. I see more dramatic off camera flash type images being the desired style real soon. Now, I do realize that every wedding is a combination of styles, which is why when asked our style I say "wedding photography." But if you want a clue into the "next thing", take a look at the magazines the brides spend so much time looking at while dreaming. We're also close to Chicago, so that might have something to do with it as well.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_b.1 Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 "do you think you will try to adapt how you shoot to include more of what the winning images showed?" Not only the winning images..., I try to learn from all the pictures I like . To change the way I shot it's difficult (and I'm not sure I want to) but I'll try all the time to improve my techniques. From the winning shots , I really like just one...But, like our friend Josh Root , wisely said : "Do keep in mind that many things are in the eye of the beholder. There is no way on god's green earth that any judged competition will make decisions that every single viewer will agree with." All the pictures in the contest are great in some way...Congratulations to the winners ! And many thanks to the judges ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rich_evans Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 <p>I don't think my typical clientele would care one way or the other with regard to style as represented by some of the images in this exercise - I don't have any set 'style' although I generally don't pursue the 'traditional/formal/posed' scenarios. What this has done is given me some food for experimentation, and I'll certainly attempt to 'step out of the box' a bit more than in the past just to see what kind of reactions those images might elicit from potential clients. --Rich</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
think27 Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 <p>Hey all<br> <br /> There is a huge difference between how a photo is judged by a bride and how a photograph is judged by a photographer.</p> <p>You also have three judges. Take any three people from the people's choice thread here and imagine what the results would be especially if all three have somewhat varied opinions.</p> <p>You have Jeff Ascough - one of the top 10 wedding photographers judging, then me - 17 years in the business - Very successful and often had my images picked as the best image for the cover of Wedding Supplement sections as well as editorial and brochures and Josh who is also successful and younger and a bit more edgy. </p> <p>You can just imagine how diverse the three of us are. So we had to come to a consensus. It took a week ;-)</p> <p>What you should be doing is not - change how you shoot based on this contest but, take a look at the entries and see why they were chosen. What where the elements that made these the best? (Again, subjective to a degree but all the qualities needed to make a top image where there)</p> <p>One of the main factors was the quality of light. Another is the texture and composition. Another is "does the image stand alone and say "Wedding" since this was a wedding contest. Does it have a strong visual or emotional appeal, drama or humor?</p> <p>These are the questions you want to ask yourself when picking the best of your work to show the couple. On the other hand we often as wedding photographers work in storytelling. That means some images are great as "a part" of the whole vs standing alone for a winning image in a contest. </p> <p>There were other great photos that didn't make the cut. Three of us had to agree as to why. Some of the reasons...</p> <p>Stiff<br> Contrived<br> exposure problem<br> no or little emotional appeal<br> too much photoshop<br> Great photo but doesn't say wedding strongly enough<br> Super moment but out of focus subject<br> Sweet but not "special" enough<br> Beautiful but fill light needed<br> Great shot but couple doesn't look comfortable or happy<br> Perfect shot but has zero emotional or dramatic appeal</p> <p>and so on...</p> <p>PS David - not sure what thread you are talking about.. I don't remember pulling a thread...</p> <p> </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
think27 Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 <p>Nicely said Rich</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wedding-photography-denver Posted February 9, 2009 Author Share Posted February 9, 2009 <p>Thanks for the replies.</p> <p>Mary, I meant the threads with all the images.. or did I miss them somewere? Archives?</p> <p>On the images you all chose, I don't necessarily disagree with your selections, that was a tough call to have to make I am sure. I appreciated the choices more after reading some of the critique you shared below each one too.<br /> I really hope the question I originally asked did not call into question what you all had to do as judges. I merely wanted to see what others thoughts were as it relates to how they saw the original images, then what they learned/felt or other reactions they may have had, to the winning images and their comments/critique.</p> <p>Yes, what Rich answered is exactly what I was wondering about.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
think27 Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 <p>Ahh - David - those threads are not gone - they are in the archives! Look under Forum Administration. </p> <p> </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nishnishant Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 <p>I think the judges chose the winners based on technical merit (as opposed to aesthetic merit). Normal folks (those who are not expert photographers) would probably have chosen a different set of images.</p> <p>I personally found three of the black and white winners (4 of the 6 winners from both categories were b&w) quite dull. There were quite a few stunning images in both categories that were a lot more attractive (to a layman).</p> <p>Perhaps next year, we should have 2 sets of winners - one set can be judged by Mary and her team of experts, the other set will be by popular vote. I bet the winners chosen will be totally different people :-)</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
think27 Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 <p>Nish - there is already a thread where members have made their choices. Quite a few of the winners were also in their picks as well.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nishnishant Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 <p>Mary - thanks for the info. Looks like I missed that thread.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
think27 Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 <p>Nish - there is already a thread where members have made their choices. Quite a few of the winners were also in their picks as well.</p> <p>Bryce Hughes, Botikario, Dennis Creason, Jill Gately, Ian and Marc Williams are all picked in that thread</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshroot Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 <blockquote> <p>I think the judges chose the winners based on technical merit (as opposed to aesthetic merit).</p> </blockquote> <p>That is an odd thing to claim. Everyone in this contest was a professional photographer being paid to do a job. It would have been illogical to proclaim a technically bad image as a winning image no matter how much aesthetic merit it had. Particularly since the stated judging criteria for the contest specifically included a number of important technical aspects:</p> <blockquote> <p>We will consider exposure accuracy, composition, lighting, image quality, technical excellence and other factors such as the impact of the image which could be drama, emotion, beauty humor, etc.</p> </blockquote> <p>Within the stated criteria, every one of the judges has a specific set of opinions as to which of these are most important in making a "great" image, as do every one of you. But the litmus test is that none of the images chosen can be pointed at and claimed to be "aesthetically weak". They are all good images. Will others have a different opinion if Image X was more aesthetically pleasing than Image Y? Of course they will. But as long as those opinions are a matter of degrees, then you can say that a contest was run successfully and fairly.</p> <blockquote> <p>Perhaps next year, we should have 2 sets of winners - one set can be judged by Mary and her team of experts, the other set will be by popular vote. I bet the winners chosen will be totally different people :-)</p> </blockquote> <p>That defeats the purpose of a judged contest. The point of a contest like this is that there are actual winners that are decided upon by a set of people who are knowledgeable about the subject. If you want to see what other random photo.net photographers think about images, that's what the ratings/critique systems are for. A judged contest is not supposed to be the same thing as a democratic election. Find the type of contest you are looking for and enter that one. Looking for one type of thing while entering another will do nothing but frustrate you.</p> <p>Honorable men/women can, and will, differ when ranking things. But the fact remains that this was a contest, not a "make everybody feel good" kindergarten game. Good images were going to be chosen as the winners and good images were also going to not make the list. At the end of the day though, if your images are selling, you shouldn't feel slighted by anything that Mary, Jeff, or I decided. A check from a happy bridal couple and good word of mouth advertising in the future is the ultimate "contest" win. If someone isn't getting those checks or their couples are unhappy or are badmouthing them, then there is nothing that winning a forum contest can do to help. That photographer has larger photographic issues.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nishnishant Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 <p>Hey Josh</p> <p>I didn't mean to look down on the mechanism you guys used to select the winners, and I am not disappointed at the selections either. I just expressed my surprise because to my non-expert eye, some of the non-winner images seemed quite beautiful. And I totally agree that anyone who entered a pic and didn't win shouldn't feel bad about it. Eventually if your clients are happy, and the pay checks keep coming, that's what matters for most folks.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savagesax Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 <p>I really don't feel the judges have to defend themselves. I thought it was very fair and a lot of fun looking at the fine photo's that were submitted.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wedding-photography-denver Posted February 9, 2009 Author Share Posted February 9, 2009 <p>I have personally been judged (wife and kids aside) by other groups of highly qualified photogs, and found myself surprised at what I placed with. It's rarely the images that I imagine would be selected. </p> <p>I don't think this need be controversial, rather a cause for intraspection and observation.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgk1966 Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 <p>Here are links to the original submittal pages:</p> <p>http://www.photo.net/wedding-photography-forum/00SDBW</p> <p>http://www.photo.net/wedding-photography-forum/00SDBr</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjogo Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 <p>"There is a huge difference between how a photo is judged by a bride and how a photograph is judged by a photographer."</p> <p>Hey >> ALL were winners for the bride. Think mine fell into that "Sweet but not "special" enough" :-) A product of all the non-journalistic years > working with the s l o w manual 120 Hassy/ Rollei /RB</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_whitcomb1 Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 <p>Nish - Trust me when I say that this judging is no different than the judging received while showing your clients their images for the first time. We always have our favorites from each wedding and anticipate the ooo's and aaaa's when those images appear only to be shot down and then squished when the images that do receive the anticipated attention are the ones that almost made it into the trash bin. Its really funny how that works, what is art to one person is sooo not to another.</p> <p>The winners were derserving of their title and the judges did an excellent job picking images that met their criteria. The real winners were all of us, we got to see some really fantastic images from very passionate photographers from around the world.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Michael Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 <p><strong><em >"Or to put it another way, do you think you will try to adapt how you shoot to include more of what the winning images showed?"</em></strong><br> <br> No. Not especially.<br> What I did do (and do, do) is look at all the fine work here (and elsewhere) and think . . . Wow! I like that bit; or this piece; or how did she do that? or he got a great angle; or great timing etc.<br> <br> I do not think "the Best" or "the Winners" need to be emulated, specifically. <br> <br> "Learning" is refining and is ongoing. <br> <br> I think there is great fun in exposing images to a critique of the "competition", we should not loose sight of that aspect of the fun - it is not like anyone’s life depends on the outcome. <br> <br> I do not think it is the be all and end all of all issues. And it is great to "win" I am not taking away from that . . . and personally and for one example, I really like the shot by Ian - but all the B&W images grabbed me first - Marc's did - we all have bias . . . so, for example, would Ian’s shot have won if I were a judge? Who knows - but more importantly who cares? We should not care <em><strong>that</strong></em> much about judges' decisions to be speculating upon the rights and wrongs of those decisions in comparison to what each of us would have decided. . . IMO the competition was primarily vehicle - a way to seduce entries and by each of us looking at each one, we all benefit.<br> <br> I took a bit, here and a bit there, from many of them. Some glimmers of genius I particularly saw in some that I expect never made the final cut - so if you asked would I emulate that little piece of work I would say" Yes <p> <br> . . . the formula / recipe for one particular image I had the opportunity to emulate the following Saturday: it looks great and the idea was fantastic and the Bride loves it - and the result is also because I had a Church and the lighting suitable to work the "recipe" I had previously seen.<br> <br> I think such a competition (and comments) reveals much about the judges as well as the photographers.<br> <br> I think a really good question to ask each of the six winners is:<br> <br> <em><strong>If you could do that shot again: would you and if so, how would you do it differently, to improve it?</strong></em><br> <br> WW<br> </p> </p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacob_lichner Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 <p>Little off topic, but since we're talking about "post-contest" here... I am so curious as to what the judges thought specifically about my image (like everyone else, I suppose...).<br> I had a handful of photos from my portfolio narrowed down and I just know there is a winning shot in that handful... But I think I picked the wrong one (well, obviously I did pick the wrong one...). I should've went with my gut choice... I over analyzed it a little bit.<br> Does anybody else feel they have a better shot they could've entered?</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blairhall Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 <p>This was the first time I've ever had an image judged (other than clients!) and I have some mixed feelings about it. That being said, they have nothing to do with the judges/judging (tall job, and I have the utmost respect for their opinions) and none of the feelings are negative.</p> <p>I couldn't help but feel a bit disappointed, but that's the competitive part in me! I think once I saw the closed thread I picked at least a handful of images that I thought were better than mine. However, at the end of the day, I'm still really new at this biz, and I turned disappointment into inspiration.</p> <p>In response to David's original post, I don't think I would alter how I would shoot to include elements of the photos that came in 1/2/3, but rather I looked at every photo that was posted that I thought were great (and there were a lot) and tried to reverse-engineer why i thought it was good. Hopefully, that gets socked away in my bag of tricks for when I'm in that situation again. As William W pointed out, learning is an ongoing process, contests like this are good opportunities to continue learning. With any luck, and some more work... next year when I post an image for judging, I'll be able to say I've evolved... but yet I'll still look forward to see what I can nick from the other people who have evolved as well ;-)</p> <p>To answer Jacob, I had 3 or 4 images that I spent a while deciding on. I wound up going with an image that I thought was my technical favorite... over an image that had more story and emotion behind it. On hindsight, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't have changed the outcome, but who knows...</p> <p>Cheers!</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshroot Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 <p>Sorry folks, but a few people wanted to start throwing insults, attacks and bizarre petty accusations. Those posts were deleted and this thread is now closed.</p> <p>If you want to know why photo.net has not done much in the way of judged contests in the past, these sorts of attacking posts are a perfect example. Some people just can't play well with others and participate in something just for fun. If this is the way things are going to go, we won't run any in the future either. Who would want to put in the effort only to be insulted and accused in this fashion? I would much rather spend my time expanding and working on photo.net's other areas to encourage our mission of photographic community education than to try and referee these types of childish fights. Sorry.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshroot Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 <p>Now that a little time has passed, let's see if we can't re-open this discussion and hope cooler heads prevail.</p> <p>Maybe it was the full moon causing havoc.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roseberry guitars Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 <p>Thank you for re-opening this discussion, Josh. And I'm sorry you had to suffer those attacks after all your hard work.</p> <p>As a relative "newbie" to this forum I was rather disheartned by the turn of events that led to the shutting down of this thread. I had hopes that we could use this "contest" to learn, get new ideas and offer support for the benefit of all. Funny how things don't often end up that way.</p> <p>To answer the original question. I don't think winners or loosers of a contest will effect my approach or portfolio. I certainly scrutinize all the submissions to find what makes them work or not (for me) to see if there are any ideas that I like and can add to my "bag of tricks". I don't do a lot of weddings per year (a half dozen +/-). The bulk of which which come word of mouth. I suppose if I were more dependant on weddings for my livelyhood I would have a need to emulate the more prevalent styles. As it is I do what I do and if it doesn't fit with a perspective client I am lucky to know a group of fellow photographers, of various minds and styles, that are always willing to offer their services.</p> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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