Shooting with fast lenses - Advice needed

[eric_eisenstein2]

<p>I am relatively new to the world of DSLR photography, and I have what is probably a beginner's question.</p>

<p>I mostly shoot "non-wedding events" -- things like my kids' birthdays, relatives playing sports, etc. -- typical family things. I am not aspiring to be the best photographer in the world, and I'm not doing this for money. I'm in it for the memories.<br /> I bought an SLR because I wanted (a) better IQ; (b) selective focus for portraits; © available light shooting so that I could stop blasting the flash. I bought a Canon Xsi, with a collection of lenses: Tamron 17-50/2.8, Tamron 28-75/f2.8; Sigma 50-150/2.8, and a Canon 50/1.8.</p>

<p>I have now taken about 1000 pictures with these lenses, and I have been very happy with the IQ and overall picture quality obtained with all of them. However, I am stymied by one thing, and I am hoping I can get some advice. It seems to me that I am frequently shooting in light that is exactly on the limit of my camera & f/2.8 lens combination. So for example, I was just shooting the other night at a dance at my daughter's school, and what I found was that even at ISO 1600 & f/2.8, the shutter speed would be around 1/10-1/60 of a sec. Even at 1/40 - 1/60 of a second, jumping/moving kids generate blur. (separately, the Xsi also shows too much noise at ISO 1600 -- realistically 800 is as high as I would like to go, but I'd lose an f-stop, so I deal with the noise.)</p>

<p>When I put the 50/1.8 on the camera and shoot wide open, I can get the right shutter speed, but the problem is that the DoF is so thin that I can't capture the shot. It seems that something is always out of focus that I hadn't wanted to be out of focus.</p>

<p>What do better photographers do with these superfast lenses? I've seen people recommend the Canon 50/1.4. How does anyone take something other than a studio shot of a person with that? Is there some technique of which I am unaware that makes these lenses more useful?</p>

<p>I thought about IS, but I don't see how that would help with pictures of frenetic children. By the way, of course I realize that I could use a flash. And that is probably what better photographers do. But I hate flash pictures. The whole point was to be able to shoot in ambient light.</p>

<p>Is it just me, or are many situations lit just at the limit of low-light? The picture below was shot with the Tamron 28-75. </p>

<p>A final aside: the uploaded picture, below, is much darker and has changed color compared to the picture I have on my computer desktop. Is there a known reason for that? I can display these pictures exactly side by side on my monitor, so there is no question that the forum image is modified relative to the original.</p><div></div>

[tibz]

<p>Autofocus systems of today are designed for slower lenses. Typically you have to "focus bracket" whereby you change the focus slightly for each of a few shots and pick the sharpest one. Also you have to make sure all of your subjects are on the same plane.</p>

[clarence1]

<p><em>>> Xsi, 40 mm/f2.8, 0.3 sec, on-camera fill flash</em></p>

<p>The EXIF is messed up... what mode were you using? Not Av with flash, right?</p>

[wedding-photography-denver]

<p>I don't think the 1dmk3 does this sort of shot perfectly, the Xsi much less so. That and the lens you are using is not known speedy focus. If you had a faster focussing lens, such as the Sigma 50/1.4 HSM, you would probably improve your average, but still have a significant OOF ratio. If you use the Sigma on a MK3, you will vastly improve your ratio, but still not get more than probably 50% where you intended.</p>

<p>I have shot with Canon bodies/lenses since 03 and don't rely too much on the AF of lesser bodies/lenses. Nikon are better in that dept. but that's a side issue. Having used the whole range of bodies Canon offers up to the 1Ds2, I don't think their AF is that consistent with any combo. It improves each time, but incrementally at best. Add this to the lag time and a moving, even a walking child, will be OOF in no time. What that means is that you can only realistically get about 1 in 5 in focus, where you intended (guess).</p>

<p>Another thing that Clarence mentioned: what mode you use will make a difference too. If you use AV and on cam, you will need to dial your cameras exposure back at least a stop or two in order to freeze your subject using flash. I would suggest using M for this type of shooting as your ambient light will likely be farily consistent. If you are afraid of flash, get over it and spend some time on the strobist site. As a side issue, I have polled many clients about the use of flash and most say they barely noticed it during an average wedding.</p>

<p> </p>

[eric_eisenstein2]

<p>Clarence: this is a JPG conversion. The original was shot in Raw. Mode was Av with flash. As I hadn't completely understood the settings, the flash was slow-synced. My understanding is that under those conditions, the camera uses the flash only for fill, not as the primary light... am I wrong?</p>

<p>David: I'm not 100% sure that I understood all of your post... in particular, I don't know what "dial the exposure back" means. Is dialing back = setting exp compensation = -1 EV or +1 EV. Sounds like -1, but that seems counterintuitive.</p>

[picturesque]

<p>Two things. For weddings, there isn't a whole lot of really fast action--i.e., the ceremony where everyone is pretty much standing still a lot. So one can take the time to focus carefully at f1.4. You still don't see dark wedding receptions (at night, very dark, more action) photographed with no flash. That limit is also changing fast though.</p>

<p>Secondly, pro photographers have access to pro camera bodies that generally have better performing autofocus systems. Sports photographers, for instance, use AI Servo a lot with wider apertures and depend upon good autofocus systems. And they practice a lot with autofocus. And shoot a lot to maximize keepers.</p>

<p>In addition, the limit of what can be photographed without flash is stretching ever more as digital quality advances. Be happy with what you have. Just think, not that long ago, photographers were thanking a deity for ISO 400 film. Of course, you are going to hit the limit sometime. Can't expect to be able to photograph in near dark, particularly with an f2.8 zoom.</p>

<p>Don't hate flash--learn to master it. Well done, flash can be very pleasing, and stops motion without too much sacrifice on ambient rendition. Plus--not every ambient lit scene is good. Just because it is ambient light doesn't mean a person always looks good in it.</p>

<p>Re the difference in color and density from your monitor to online. You need to calibrate your monitor.</p>

[picturesque]

<p>Re AV/slow sync mode, you are correct in that the camera always goes for what it thinks is the correct ambient exposure and if flash is present, uses it as fill or to make up what is lacking in the ambient.</p>

<p>David means underexposing the ambient when using flash. Look up 'dragging the shutter' and in particular, in the article at planetneil.com, under techniques, about using on camera flash.</p>

[picturesque]

<p>Also--those sports photographers aren't shooting in as dim a condition as what you show in your sample.</p>

[sherijohnson]

<p>Flash can be your friend, with kids it is almost required if you want to freeze the shot.</p>

[Ian Taylor]

<p>If there is enough even light you often don't need flash. Just shoot RAW and fix the WB later.<br>

You have to learn to use your focus selection points very quickly. Don't move the camera while you are focusing if you are wide open with a prime. Start playing with AI Servo as well, but not on the job!<br>

<a title="bride by ko-knia, on Flickr" href="../photo/8348173&size=lg" title="bride by ko-knia, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3020/3084258253_0da31be548_m.jpg" alt="bride" width="240" height="160" /> </a><br>

<a title="bride by ko-knia, on Flickr" href="../photo/8348173&size=lg" title="bride by ko-knia, on Flickr"></a> f1.4 and on the move</p>

[david_amberson1]

<p>Nadine took the words right out of my mouth.</p>

<p>Go to <strong>Planet Neil.com</strong>. This guy has mastered flash and if he hadnt told you he used flash, you would never know. He also tells you how he did it in most cases.</p>

<p>I use alot of those same techniques and when I adapted them it greatly improved the look of my images in dark lit situations. Now I look forward to using flash because I can control my light so much more and can then shoot in just about anything. When I used to feel the same as you.</p>

 

[edrodgers]

<p>The difference between your "desktop" and a web browser is most likely the color space you are using. Web is still unfortunately mostly limited to sRGB, and applications like Lightroom are using ProPhoto RGB. If you manually take care of the colorspace conversion to sRGB in Photoshop, what you see is what you get on the web or on your desktop. I find the color space conversion in most applications is not so good, including Lightroom. Photoshop conversions offer more control, but I would still avoid "save for web and devices" with saturated images. convert the profile instead.</p>

<p>Or you could just set your camera to sRGB jpegs and you will never see a problem. :)</p>

[steve_c.5]

<p>I'd take exception to Nadine's comment about how weddings don't have much fast action. Even with ceremonies, in a dim church, if you have any walking speed at all, you'll have to jack the ISO up considerably to reduce or eliminate blur. I typically will pop some fill flash during processional / recessional just to freeze the movement.</p>

<p>At receptions, there's lots of fast action. The bridal party entering the reception hall at walking speed will result in blur if you can't get your shutter to a reasonable speed. Flash will help you freeze that motion, preferably diffused or bounced (as in Planet Neil). Bouquet tosses are very rapid action, if you want to catch the toss before the bouquet is released, mid-air, and the catch. Not only will you need flash here, but you'll need an auxilliary battery pack to keep your flash juiced up for rapid action. Dancing shots also result in lots of movement and will require a flash to freeze the motion and produce good action shots (using shutter drag and higher ISO). And, the couple's escape often results in them running through a gauntlet of sparklers, bubbles, Cheerios, bird seed, etc. Without flash, you'll never get these shots in dim lighting.</p>

<p>My rule is when subjects are very static, or almost still, my shutter speeds go longer and my ISO goes down (to reduce grain). When they start moving, the shutter speed shortens somewhat, and my ISO goes up (more grain, but better freezing of action). Your mileage may vary.</p>

[clarence1]

<p>>>[Eric Eisenstein]>> <em>Clarence: this is a JPG conversion. The original was shot in Raw. Mode was Av with flash.</em></p>

<p>My short recommendation: Never use Av mode with flash.</p>

<p><a href="http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/index2.html">http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/index2.html</a><br /><em><strong>Av (aperture priority) mode flash.</strong></em></p>

<blockquote>

<p><em>Av mode lets you set the depth of field by specifying the lens aperture. The camera then chooses a shutter speed ranging from 30 seconds to the camera’s X-sync speed, in order to expose the background correctly. If that means the shutter speed is some really low value so that you need to use a tripod to avoid camera-shake blur, so be it. In dark conditions, therefore, Av mode works in slow sync mode.</em></p>

</blockquote>

<p>I agree with the <a href="http://www.planetneil.com/tangents/flash-photography-techniques/3-dragging-the-shutter/">http://www.planetneil.com/tangents/flash-photography-techniques/3-dragging-the-shutter/</a><a href="http://planetneil.com"></a> recommendation to learn about dragging the shutter.</p>

<p>And since links are cheap: <a href="http://www.usa.canon.com/dlc/controller?act=GetArticleAct&articleID=106">http://www.usa.canon.com/dlc/controller?act=GetArticleAct&articleID=106</a></p>

<p>My bottom line recommendation for improving what I think you were trying to achieve in your photo above: I recommend the <strong>"night portrait" mode</strong> on your XSi dial... it actually does a nice job of automatically dragging the shutter with flash.</p>

[picturesque]

<p>Steve--I guess I should have specified "no flash ceremonies" instead of the word "weddings" in my statement. I was referring to the part between processional and recessional in a wedding ceremony. I did say "more action" later in reference to receptions and that most photographers are still using flash for dark, nightime receptions.</p>

[steve_c.5]

<p>Yes, I had a hunch that's what you meant, Nadine. I consider most ceremonies "no flash" ceremonies myself, short of some fill flash during processional and recessional.</p>

[Ken Katz]

<p>For what you are trying to do, I think that learning how to use an external flash creatively, will produce signficant improvements to the type of images you are trying to make. Shooting moving children in low available light and trying to get sharp, well exposed, in focus images is exceeding difficult even with f2.8 or faster lenses (kids move quicker and more erratically than most adults). For the image you posted, if you had a used a flash, like a 430EX, bounced it against the ceiling or wall, used a bounce diffuser (such as a Sto Fen or Lightsphere), and used a shutter speed of 1/15 or 1/30, I think you would have been happier with your results. </p>

[pete_s.]

<p>There are a couple of areas besides learning to use flash that you could improve.<br /> First is knowledge about DOF. It's dependent on magnification. So the closer you get and the more you are zoomed in (longer focal length) the smaller DOF. You can shoot a lot at f/1.4 but you need to know when. Check DOF at http://dofmaster.com</p>

<p>Next is knowledge about shutter speed and motion blur. The faster something moves the faster the shutter speed needs to be. That is obvious but what may not be obvious is that it is also dependent on the direction of the subject and magnification (focal length & subject distance). For example if you shoot an overall scene people can move in that scene and be sharp even at 1/30 (it depends on final size of the image as well, similar to DOF).</p>

<p>After that check into the focus capabilities of your camera. Usually some of the focus points are more sensitive so focus with them in low light and learn all settings and functions and try them in real life. For instance when the camera is in focus tracking mode (don't know what Canon calls it) it's actually predicting subject movement and moving the focus along it's predicted path. Sports photographer usually use AF-ON to separate focusing and shutter realease and I think you can too with your camera. One way to use it is to move with the subject while focus tracking and fire the shutter at times when things look good.</p>

<p>Finally you need to look into post processing. The reason your camera stops at ISO 1600 is product placement and marketing. You should be able to get similar image quality as a 40D. Since you can't dial in ISO 3200, you can push process. Shoot 1 stop underexposed in RAW (ISO 1600) and raise the exposure 1 stop when you develop the raw file. If it's too much noise treat the image with noise reduction software. You will get the same thing as if your camera had a ISO 3200 setting. ISO 6400 is also doable. If you want a scientific explanation why this works on a digital camera look into the concept of unity gain.</p>

<p> </p>

[arie_vandervelden1]

<p>Some wise words here about flash. Note that a hotshoe flash (with diffuser or bounced) gives much, much nicer light than your pop-up flash.</p>

<p>About the 50/1.8. I have this lens. AF accuracy can be a major issue at f/1.8 especially in low light. I love my 50/1.8 dearly but the amount of misses at large aperture due to AF accuracy problems is simply too high.</p>

<p>As such I'm looking into Canon 50/1.4 or Sigma 50/1.4 - I haven't decided yet which one. In theory, a 50/1.4 stopped down to f/1.8 should focus much more accurately. <br /></p>

[wai_leong_lee]

First, IS or VR is a necessity, esp for longer focal lengths.

 

Second, you have to know when to press the shutter, ie anticipate the action and when there may be a slight pause.

 

Third, I'd suggest turning the situation to your advantage. Rather than capturing stock photos of people frozen in their weird expressions, why not drag the shutter and capture motion, a la panning? It's not necessary for every photo to be perfectly sharp and still, in fact it's boring. Motion in a photo conveys action and movement, and it's infinitely more creative than the deer-in-the-headlights flash-frozen look that the P mode defaults to.

[steve_hovland]

<p>Although many people shoot available light regardless of the quality of the light, I would note that available light is often of poor quality- too contrasty, too diffused.<br>

The Canon 18-55mm IS tests very well on photozone.de. That would solve some of your sharpness problems. <br>

That plus a flash with rotating head and f4 or f5.6 will get you nice pictures. Learn to turn the head toward ceiling and walls for nice soft directional lighting.<br>

I like to shoot in manual at 1/100, f5.6 with image stabilization at ISO 800 and let the flash add what it needs to give a good exposure.</p>

[conraderb]

<p>1) get a flash with a focus assist.</p>

<p>2) use the back * button focusing method.</p>

<p>3) shoot, refocus and shoot again until you figure it out.</p>

<p>I use XXd and 5D bodies and have no problems as long as I'm shooting more than one frame per subject. Shoot, defocus, refocus, shoot.</p>

[William Michael]

<p><strong>"However, I am stymied by one thing . . it seems to me that I am frequently shooting in light that is exactly on the limit of my camera & f/2.8 lens combination. . . . the Xsi also shows too much noise at ISO 1600 -- realistically 800 is as high as I would like to go . . . When I put the 50/1.8 on the camera and shoot wide open, I can get the right shutter speed, but the problem is that the DoF is so thin that I can't capture the shot. . . I've seen people recommend the Canon 50/1.4 . . . How does anyone take something other than a studio shot of a person with that . . . Is there some technique of which I am unaware that makes these lenses more useful . . . I thought about IS, but I don't see how that would help with pictures of frenetic children . . . of course I realize that I could use a flash. . . . that is probably what better photographers do . . . but I hate flash pictures </strong></p>

<p><strong>. . <em>. the whole point was to be able to shoot in ambient light."</em></strong></p>

<p>There have been many comments about <strong><em>using</em></strong> flash, but it seems fewer about how not to. I shall not sway you from your quest – I understand it.</p>

<p>IMO, these are some considerations you might address, to master the pursuit you have described.</p>

<p>They are in no particular order of priority – control of each element has an impact on the quality of the final product.</p>

<p>1. Use noise reduction PP.</p>

<p>2. Understand that you must nail the exposure – not 1 or an half a stop either way.</p>

<p>3. Correct shutter execution, controlled breathing and stable hand holding the camera and or support of it – practice it – learn how an archer releases the arrow- learn the stances – all of them.</p>

<p>4. Look to use a brace and or a support - a table top back of a chair etc</p>

<p>5. KNOW about what DoF you have to play with, as an example for shotting people using the 50F1.8 – memorize the DoF at F1.8 for SD at 6ft 12ft and 18ft.</p>

<p>6. Make sure you have good eyes and the viewfinder adjustment is set for them - or use your eye glasses. . .</p>

<p>7. Play with MF and confirm the focus with the red CENTRE AF point as you manipulate your lens through the focus field. The APS-C bodies have dark viewfinders – it is a strain but doable.</p>

<p>8. Understand HOW the AF works on CONTRAST differences and that the actual centre AF point is sometimes beyond (often just below) the red square.</p>

<p>9. Practice Focus and recompose – and learn to judge distances precisely - and learn the error due to the parallax error - it might be necessary to achieve focus elsewhere on the subject, than where the centre of the frame is - in the meantime forget framing the shot and centre everything, just to practice good Focus and Shutter release techniques - practice recomposing later.</p>

<p>10. Understand what a Pre Focus point is and how to use it.</p>

<p>11. Understand what SS is required for different subjects – to stop Subject motion.</p>

<p>12. Note the LIGHT SCAPE - often indoors the lighta are all above - that leaves dark eye sockets - learn how to manipulate that - or at least reduce it - (see the eyes on the girl top left example - I nailed the shutter timing to get the right eye - and I will accept the shadow in the left eye to keep the nice light on her hair)</p>

<p>13. Contemplate shooting a burst of three – though I do not like this technique – often the middle shot as less camera movement</p>

<p>14. Practice make perfect – it is a manual effort - it is not rocket science – just like practicing the scales on the piano – but you have to DO the practice – that point is so misunderstood, IMO .</p>

<p>***</p>

<p>Other comments: not wishing a long debate, but it is my opinion that for the type of capture described in the original post IS (or VR) will be of limited use: for very slow shutter speeds it will assist camera shake . . . but if we think this through . . . the only Canon lens with IS at the FL being discussed is the 17 to 55F2.8 IS.</p>

<p>In fact as far as I am aware the fastest IS or VR lenses are all F2.8 – the point raised in this post is that F2.8 is TOO SLOW to freeze the subjects’ motions – so arguing IS or VR is simply silly as we are requiring a lens faster than F2.8 simple to get the Shutter Speed required at ISO800.</p>

<p>***</p>

<p>I reiterate: if you take anything away from what I have scribed – you must nail the exposure – to minimize the noise / grain AND your shutter release must be perfect to shoot at 1/60s and slower.</p>

<p>***</p>

<p>IMO, you can get ISO1600 from your XSi.</p>

<p>I can push a 400D to ISO1600 and get good results with 5x7inch prints – I have no examples from the 400D at hand, but below are some I put together for another post – they are self explanatory – and trust me, the three from the 20D are all sharp enough to hold to 7x5 - even 10 x 8: there is a slight subject movement in the 5d /24L shot - my error there was I should have bumped to ISO3200 and dropped to 1/50s - upon interrogation my shutter technique was OK but needed about 1/40s or faster to freeze the subjects' motion.</p>

<p>WW</p>

<p> </p><div></div>

[zml]

<p>Also, there is an old adage: f/8 and be there! (You can use f/5.6 for crop sensor camers...) Shallow DOF is grossly overrated.</p>

[William Michael]

<p>. . . and I was deadly serious about doing the practice, the result of practice, practice, practice is being able to do more with less, when you see something you really like and only have one lens and one camera.</p>

<p><br />My point about practice . . . is in the<strong><em> technical specs of the image</em></strong>. . . this is a full frame crop to 7 x 5 ratio. I ran out of DoF camera left, and I have left that portion IN the crop.</p>

<p>WW</p><div></div>