I'm every camera store's worst nightmare

[Richard Williams]

<p>Here in the UK, we often have an interesting reversal of this situation. Many of the keenest prices come from small long-established shops, often outside the major cities, that have always had mail order operations (e.g. through the back pages of Amateur Phorographer), and now do a lot of their trading on the net. If you're not lucky enough to live close to one of these places, your 'local camera shop' (and only place where you can actually see the gear) is likely to be a Jessops (bland corporate Ritz-like chain that swallowed up or out-competed many of the independent shops back in the 80s and 90s). So your choice might be:<br>

(1) See the gear at Jessops and pay whatever they ask (possibly hurting your bank balance, and probably without receiving much in the way of worthwhile advice from the shop in compensation).<br>

(2) See the gear at Jessops but buy by mail order from an independent (taking advantage of Jessops).<br>

(3) Try to persuade Jessops to match the independent price (taking trade away from the independent that gave you the negotiating power).<br>

What's the 'moral' choice in this situation, especially now that the future of Jessops and that of many of the independents must be under threat in the current economic climate?</p>

[tomscott]

<p>I would love it if I had the option of shopping in a local camera store. Unfortunately the only thing around here that even comes close is a Ritz/Wolf Camera who, for someone that shoots film only, really has no more to offer than say a Wal-Mart. They have 2 or 3 choices of 35mm film (on a good day), nothing in MF, a few cheapo filters and 5 or 6 off brand tripods. So for me it is either internet shopping or drive 50 or 60 miles to Atlanta to shop. I'd rather have a stick in the eye than drive to Atlanta to shop.</p>

[john_h.1]

<p><em>It sounded to me like your earlier post was trying to turn the point around and say that some people would shop online and then buy locally?</em><br>

<em></em><br>

Yes, that was the intent.</p>

<p><em>My point was simply If someone outside of your local area lost money because of that so what. None of their revenue will benefit your community.</em><br>

<em></em><br>

If you say so then that's fine but it still isn't relevent because the issue is to show that the same thing happens in reverse to the posters' complaint no matter where the geographical locations are.</p>

<p><em> Internet retailers do not have those costs so it’s not an apples to apples comparison</em></p>

<p>It doesn't need to be. The issue raised was that there is some moral wrong for evaluating equipment in a store. My response, again, is to discuss that it happens the other way too. To say that this behavior is wrong just because one business operates one way or has higher costs does not matter. It is either moral misconduct or it is not; in your apple situation or your orange situation. The distinction is irrelevent.</p>

 

[danielgreen1]

<p >Silly John<br>

Do you really think there is a moral wrong because people view an internet site and then shop locally? If you think it costs an internet site more for two people to browse then 6 million, you’re wrong. Their employee costs are the same no matter how many people look. You’re trying to be over simplistic in your analysis.</p>

[naturegirl99]

<p>Give me a break, folks. We are basically a capitalistic society. Where is it written that once you walk into a store, you MUST buy something? I work hard for my money. I'm going to spend it wisely, and I'm going to compare prices. If I go into Store A and the price is higher than Store B, down the street, for the same merchandise, where do you think I'm going to make my purchase? Work the internet into that statement and it's still the same thing.<br>

P.S. I have several camera stores available to me as I live in a big city, and I have my favorite which I like to support, but I'm still going to price-shop. </p>

[edchambers]

<p>Remember the original post was, someone planned to go into a store with the planned goal of only looking to physically compare and kick the tires so to speak, with NO intention of buying at that store while the browser was sucking up the resources of the Brick and morter store. When I go to a store, if they do not have what I want, I do not feel obligated to spend my money there immediately; however if a service is provided, I certainly compute that into the buying equation before I make a purchase.</p>

[cooltpmd]

<p>Actually, most of the benefits of local merchants have faded ... that's why they are getting their butts handed to them by the online community.</p>

<p>Circuit City was a great example of this. They used to hire folks that knew their products (stereos, cameras, etc...). You would get great advise, good service, easy returns, etc... I went out of my way to buy from them. Then Best Buy emerged ... CC decided to compete 1-on-1, not doing what they were best at ... and lost.</p>

<p>These local stores have stopped servicing products, they resist returns ... often shunting you to the manufacturer, and they hire people who don't know the products. Therefore, they offer no benefit over blind internet purchasing ... plus are overpriced and require local taxes. THEY have made it a no-brainer ... and they will go the way of the Circuit Cities.</p>

[tomscott]

<p>I see no "moral" issue to it either way. Stores send out sale notices in newspapers, email ads to your computer, fill your mailbox with flyers and anything else they can think of just to get you into their store, in the off chance that you <strong>might</strong> buy something. So what is the difference if I walk in to check out a certain product with no intention of buying it, I may still end up buying a lens cap or micro fiber cloth or something. The more people that walk through the door the better chance they have of selling something, regardless of the fact that some of them never had any intention of buying. Is it morally wrong for stores to put things next to the register that they think might tempt you into buying, like gum or candy?</p>

[mike_cruk]

I'm lucky in that there are three remaining photography stores in my city of 250000, and it was Blacks (the Canadian version of Ritz or Jessop) that has been squeezed out. Two of the three are local networks of maybe a dozen stores, if that, but are locally owned and have very knowledgeable staff. The third is owned and operated by an old Chinese gentleman who can repair pretty much any camera ever produced. The store will die when he does, and I will greatly miss it.

 

 

I buy a lot of stuff locally, as the prices are within reason, the staff is very helpful and has certainly saved me my monies worth of bad purchases, and warrantys are easy to handle. I also buy all my used film gear from the Chinese fellow - his warranty is of far more value to me because he is likely the only person within 1000km who can actually perform the repairs anymore.

 

 

 

The only exception are used digital bodies, as the prices locally are 75% to 150% then online. Otherwise, I find the slight price premium paid locally to be a good investment.

 

 

Btw, can someone enlighten me as to how to avoid a wall of text when posting from my blackberry?

[robert_amsden]

<p>The camera stores here in richmond va don't have anything I need. Not even tri x sheet film or oriental seagull select vc paper. So I have to order everything on line, most of it from b&h.</p>

[john_h.1]

<p><em>Do you really think there is a moral wrong because people view an internet site and then shop locally?</em><br>

<em></em><br /><em></em><br />I didn't say there was. Indeed, my comments overall suggest the opposite. While I appreciate your interest in my comments, you don't seem to responding to what I am actually discussing so, I'll just move on.</p>

[john_h.1]

<p><em>Where is it written that once you walk into a store, you MUST buy something? I work hard for my money. I'm going to spend it wisely, and I'm going to compare prices. If I go into Store A and the price is higher than Store B, down the street, for the same merchandise, where do you think I'm going to make my purchase? Work the internet into that statement and it's still the same thing.<br /></em><br>

Exactly!</p>

[saskphotog]

<p>It's not a moral question; it's a question of true self interest.</p>

<p>It is not in your self interest to destroy your community to save a few dollars. Cheapest right now is not necessarily the cheapest in the long run, and there are ways of measuring value that do not even come up in a pure dollars and cents argument that are at least as important to the quality of your life. </p>

<p>The real reason to have money is to purchase quality of life, not just stuff, so when you purchase your stuff, think about the bigger picture at the same time, or one day that bigger picture will suddenly come into focus for you, and it will be too late.</p>

<p>Pure self interest, not morality.</p>

<p> </p>

[cyr_smith]

<p><a href="../off-topic-forum/00S9w5">Here</a> is the perfect answer to this thread........</p>

[GerrySiegel]

<p>It would really be nice if we had manufacturer display centers in major cities. We did at one time,where they co-located with a repair center. Canon had a regional center in Honolulu at one time. I believe these company centers were actually discouraged and frowned on by local stores because they want customers to come in to examine merchandise. I think Apple computer has the right model. No pressure. Intelligent 'geniuses.' and prices that are little diferent from online. But their model is managed centrally, so only taxes accrue to the local jurisdiction. I guess we all have in mind the small business owner that we used to chat with and talk shop. Since those are gone, and since people learned that they could save really big money on line, the rules of the game changed. But idealists have my respect. Some places like my wife's needlecraft store offer a social and personalized experience. They will special order. They know her name. Like the neighborhood bar, they offer special attention. And know about "listening" as well as moving product. People seem to feel no loyalty to examining a product that is on display. Specialty stores will sell enough at MSRP to offset deadbeats who live in the flat world. The art of negotiatiing prices was an incentive once. People have lost that skill. Most have I mean to say.</p>

[markus_latva_aho]

<p>If you have a customer with you for an hour or even more and you don't close the deal... Perhaps a glance at the mirror, time to refine your marketing and selling skills! When you go to a store, you expect to pay perhaps a little more, but the customer also expects to get something more for that money. Maybe it's that personal service or possibility to get the item right a way. I know I turn on my heels, if the shopper promises to order it for me in a week. No thank you, I order it myself or walk into another store.</p>

[denny_edwards]

<p>I spent 45 years running two photographic equipment supply houses in the Pittsburgh area. The reason that both eventually had to close their doors was partly because our efforts to give the absolute best service and treat every customer as a friend apparently wasn't worth paying the PA Sales Tax on items that they could get out of state without the added 7%.</p>

<p> Denny Edwards</p>

[kelly_flanigan1]

<p>With my stores we stopped openly selling inkjet cartridges; there was no money in taking back other stores returns. A customer would buy say 2 per year from us; the rest on the internet to save a buck and skirt sales taxes. Then they would try returning the internet duds to my store; one per month; after awhile it just gets old; the lying; whining; eating others HP ink cartridges. Thus I still sell some cartridges to some folks; and not the aholes. A some point you have to stop being a pansy and cut the dole off to the blood suckers; the ticks. Its not a moral issue; one of waste; like a leaky water main or employee theft or a leaky AC duct.</p>

<p>Oh my gosh; a business is saying that some customers absorb gobs of resources and time an we loose money on you in the name of customer service!</p>

<p>A local business is used as a free source of info; they buy it mailorder; skirt the taxes. Then they want you as a local store to handle warrany issues; provide free loaners.</p>

<p>Recently since times are tougher the trend has been to try to get you take back items you never even sold; or stuff sold years ago. The gambit is they claim their Aunt gave it to them for Christmas; and thus there is no receipt. Maybe its a GPS unit I sold new back in 2004; they arrive and want say 100 bucks cash on an obsolete unit that I paid 75 bucks for back in 2004. They make a scene; cry customer service:).</p>

<p>In inkjet papers some folks always want free 5 yard rolls of 36" wide canvas or glossy; after while the paper suppliers wised up and sold them at cost; and customers bitched when we charged what we paid for them. One becomes known as a free source of canvas; or as an emergency source when they screw up and fail to mail order it.</p>

<p>One customer long ago belonged to a trade organization that with dues provided a Kodak databook series with all the booketes. I noticed on my sales spreadsheet how on account returned one each year to us; an item we never sold to them. I had to halt this; they went ballistic; we were no longer their toilet. The same folks bought a giant high end pencil set for renderings; used the pencils; and got their full money back on a 200 buck set. The same folks try to photocopy the books we sell on our self serve copier; then if they actually want one to buy a book demand that I sell them one thats sealed; with the binding not all screwed up due their breaking back. The same old customer wants us to copy copyrighted works that are clearly not grey area stuff. The same customer owes us money from October; and says another is going to pay us for their printing.</p>

<p>In a perfect world ;a local store would magically be able to give all this local service folks want; below internet prices and you would not have to pay local sales taxes. You would get free loaners; free batteries. You could buy stuff use it for the weekend; and we would give you 5 percent back too. We would have a Kodachrome lab in house; bricks of frozen Panatomic-X. We would accept any return no matter how old; from any store. We would be open 24 hours per day 7 days a week; each employee would versused in iZones; speed graphics; D700's; Brown Bullets; and all Canon and Nikon; and be a "all-in-one dictionary of all things cameras." We would spend hours praising your fantastic cat, soccer and sunset images and spend all our wages buying your masterpieces. If you want use to take back your two Izones and Webster and trade it for a Mint Leica M3 with DR Summicron; we will do it; Its ALL ABOUT CUSTOMER SERVICE; pleasing you. If you want to trade in a 386 we will take it.</p>

<p> </p>

[denny_edwards]

<p>In my businesses, we stocked virtually every camera and lens made by Nikon, Hasselblad etc. We also stocked almost every worthwhile accessory. Everything was displayed in our large salesfloors. We offered free delivery via our trucks in the Greater Pittsburgh Area. We also extended free credit to all businesses. We had some customers who would come in, buy an expensive lens, use it on a shoot, and return it a day or two later. They were the same ones who would go to Saks Fifth Ave and buy some expensive clothes, use them on a model shoot and then return them.</p>

[Tim_Lookingbill]

<p>This thread makes me think we're all just tired of buying and selling stuff.</p>

<p>Geez! Sounds like a Mexican stand off between buyers and sellers.</p>

<p>Maybe this recession will do us some good after all.</p>

[edchambers]

<p>OP Original Poster here . . . 7 days of core dump here and over 90 responses . . . Have we changed the world? Have we enlightened ourselves? Have we imparted a sage wisdom to the newbies here that only know the Internet? The future is before us; as we write and right our history at the moment we experience our new reality of the moment. I originally made this post as I was miffed that some one would go into a store with the intent of NOT using that store to buy anything only to use that store as a personal FREE testing location with the intent of purchasing elsewhere. It was not my intention to imply that if you go into a store that one has to purchase there; however to go into a store with the intention to use the stores services and to NEVER purchase there, and soak up the limited time and pontentially dilute the service rendered to buying customers was a facet of implied fraud. I asked for other opinions and watched the reaction . . . WOW . . . we seem to have some emotions here. There is hope. Be and act the change you seek in others. Cheers. Adios for now . . . off to birth some photos! :-)</p>

[arie07]

<p>Taking the chance to repeat what others said, here is my "vision" on this subject: The papa and mama photo store where you could chat photography with the owner and other patrons has gone the way of almost all other specialty shops. Downtown areas are full of clothing, then some more clothing, then shoes (you got it...). Almost all specialty stores closed their doors as the older generation retired and the new generation of minimum wage salespersons took over in the chain stores at large malls.<br>

There is nothing you can find there since these "sales people" know close to nothing about the products they have for sale, often misslead the customer with wrong or false information. The only reason for a photography buff to go there is to handle and play a bit with the actual product, or to get it fast not having to wait for the product to be delivered to him having to pay a premium price and sales tax for the sake of a speedy ownership.</p><div></div>

[rogerjporter]

<p>I've actually been behind the counter at a camera store at what was once a mom and pop store with low prices and and high commissions then bought up by a giant national mall store chain with high prices and low commissions, all the while trying to keep my mortgage and utilities paid, and my 4 kids fed. All the guys there knew we were high priced, and if we lowered the price to honor our guaranteed price match policy, we wouldn't get a penny of our commission on the item. We had to rely solely on the accessories to feed our paycheck, and for the more savvy buyers or upgrade customers, we would have to work twice as hard to make the same money. Nothing ticked us off more than the online shoppers that would come in to handle our cameras and waste our time then buy it somewhere else. It's a cutthroat business, and one that i feel is only a notch above used car sales. I had to bail out and change careers, it was killing me. It's a shame that we lose the independent shops, but with the internet being so cheap many people have no choice but to buy online. Honesty from the customer was always appreciated, if you were only looking or planning to buy it somewhere else, and didn't waste a bunch of our time, we were fine with you. If we gave you a 30 minute comparison of several cameras and accessories, then you ask us to match on online price or told us thanks but you were going to buy it online, our sentiments were to throw the box at you and tell you to get out. It's funny, i quit a year and a half ago and that still irks me, maybe someday i will get over it. </p>

[lovcom_photo]

<p>The world is changing. </p>

<p>Customers are not supposed to save stores. Stores are supposed to save themselves.</p>

<p>Customers are supposed to get the best price. </p>

<p>Lots of lack of acceptance of these facts here.</p>

<p>One needs to surf on the change, and not fight it. It can't be stopped.</p>

[luca_stramare2]

<p>Customers are supposed to get what they pay for. Not so long ago I was in my favourite camera store and I saw them politly invite a customer to leave the shop. I learnt that the guy was spending time asking about equipment but actually buy nothing. Since the place is quite crowded, one of the clerks told me that they pretend to dedicate their time to the people that actually give them a living. I couldn't agree more. The customer is king as long as he/she is a customer.</p>