Photographing children's portraits at school, need help with lighting

[shawnee_pedraza]

<p>My friend and I are shooting a pre-school. We will be doing individual portraits and class pictures.<br>

We have 2 alien bees B800's flash units. Can we put a soft box around these lights? or is the soft box a different unit altogether? What is in a softbaox? a flash or continuous light source?</p>

<p>We hope to be outside but if it rains we need a good light set up... any ideas<br>

Thanks for your understanding and patience with the beginners!!</p>

[Matt Laur]

<p>If you go to AlienBees.com, you can see photographs of the softboxes they sell. But you'll probably be fine using umbrellas. Do you have stands? Do you have sandbags to keep them from falling over? Remember: you're dealing with a bunch of little kids running around. They run into things. User gaffer's tape to secure your power cables to the floor.<br /><br />How will you be triggering the strobes? Does your camera have a synch cable connection or were you planning on going wireless? You've got to make sure you've got that all worked out in advance and tested.</p>

[shawnee_pedraza]

<p>Thanks! We will be triggering the strobes.<br>

I just wasn't sure what exactly was inside the softbox? do I need to put a flash unit in it?</p>

 

[Matt Laur]

<p>A softbox is a tool to modify the light emitted from the strobe. Just like an umbrella is.<br /><br />Do yourself a favor, and look online for some tutorials. You can head <strong><a href="http://www.photoflexlightingschool.com/">right here</a></strong> and look at their basic free ones. They're an equipment vendor, so the classes are oriented around showing you their stuff... but you'll get the idea.</p>

[shawnee_pedraza]

<p>Thank you to all that are trying to help me out..that is what this is about right??<br>

Not that I need to explain myself but a friend of mine who owns a small school is having me do this....I have never used a softbox before so I wanted some information hence the beginner section....</p>

<p>I love photography but I am new to this. How will I learn if I don't try and practice?<br>

It's really upsetting when a beginner asks a question and gets reactions like "your not ready" if you don't want to answer my question then don't...<br>

Thank you Matt for your respectful response</p>

[Matt Laur]

<p>Shawnee: since I've got the "being respectful" brownie points, here, I will take the opportunity to expand (tactfully!) on the "not ready" line of thinking. People who do this for a living are - as you can imagine - often frustrated when they know that someone who isn't in a position to deliver consistent, professional results gets into the marketplace. It can have an unpleasant long-term effect on what people think that prices should be for professional services, or can undermine what people think of photographers in general, if they sense that people show up while still learning on the job. It's one thing to assist a pro, it's another to wing it on your own while still working your way through the very early, basic vocabulary stuff.<br /><br />Everyone's a beginner at some point, and many people don't think to try Googling their way to an understanding of some basic terminology... which of course results in some folks here seeing the same questions over and over again. And the result can be somewhat terse answers. Don't take it personally.<br /><br />It sounds like you've got a situation where you're essentially doing someone a favor, rather than committing to a contractual gig with financial consequences if it goes badly. That's a good way to learn - but make sure that parents have reasonable expectations about what's going to happen and whether or not there's any particular guarantee of results. Most parents will also want to know what the legal boundaries are, when it comes to having their children photographed. The school may also want to know what their liability would be if a light stand falls on a toddler - they may insist that you have insurance for that sort of thing.<br /><br />So, when people get into the topic of "not ready" when it comes to this sort of thing, they're usually guessing that an innocent question about the basics of the equipment is actually the tip of the iceberg when it comes to stuff you might not have thought all the way through. Photographers like it when their fellow photographers make us all look good, right?<br /><br />Good luck soaking up some info here and elsewhere - it's a life-long project! Use this site's search tools (at the top right of the screen) to search for discussions on specific issues as you come across new terms. There's hardly anything you could think about that hasn't been discussed many times. As you plow through that material, you'll find that your questions will become far more specific and informed, and the responses you get back will be far more constructive.</p>

[cabbiinc]

<p>One of the problems with your situation isn't the lack of knowledge per se, it's the fact that your "learning" on a group of individuals that aren't family and friends. The fact that it's a daycare or preschool is irrelevant. There are parents attached to those kids and your work will be seen with a little scrutiny.</p>

<p>The big problem that I don't see anyone addressing is insurance. Do you have any? I'm not trying to preach at you but if a light comes over on a kid your going to get sued. The parent may not sue you, but that's not something you can bet on. And I'm pretty sure that the preschools insurance would only cover the preschool, not a amateur photographer. But if you want to lose it all I guess I can't stop you.</p>

<p>If I was on a site for racing enthusiusts, and there was someone who asked the question "how do you make sharp turns really fast" I'd expect the same *don't do it* remarks. I'd also expect the person in question to try to explain just why they are ready and do it anyways. It's to be expected from both sides.</p>

[dana_jill]

<p>Gosh I have to say that 2 of my 3 kids are school-aged and every year we are disappointed in the so-called professional pictures that are done. It's a major company that does it (I won't mention the name here) and I am almost certain that they hire just anyone off the street, give them a couple of hours of training, and dispatch them to the schools. They herd the kids in and out really doing it as fast as possible. I would gladly take a chance on a novice photographer because she probably has alot more enthusiasm and is alot more interested in doing a good job. <br>

If it's nice weather outside, I would encourage you to do it outdoors! In all of my kids years at school (and my oldest is now in high school) never have the photographers bothered with doing outdoor shots -- and we live in sunny California so it's very do-able even in the winter. I have seen school pics that were done outside near a tree or with some other nice background and they come out great. I hope you can do them this way! I always buy the minimal amount of pictures just so we can get a picture of each kid with their class but overall it's a total ripoff for the marginal quality.</p>

[shawnee_pedraza]

<p>Thanks Dana, thats how I feel about my son's school pictures.<br>

I have a ways to go, but I feel like I have the "eye" for it.</p>

<p>photographybyshawnee.smugmug.com (my first site)</p>

<p>I just started with photography and I hope to have a small business that caters to small pre-schools and day cares....</p>

<p>I live in the bay area of California and I think it's a shame what the "big" school picture companies do.... they have the money to do some cool stuff! I would just like to see some new ideas.......<br>

I hope to do that..</p>

[dana_jill]

<p>I live in the Bay area too, Shawnee! Your school probably uses that big company I was talking about too. It's very "Sear's portrait studio" if you know what I mean. No vision, no attention to detail, just haul them in and out. good luck with your venture!</p>

[daverhaas]

<p>Shawnee -</p>

<p>If you are shooting indoors I'd recommend the following:<br>

1 - external strobe - Stand mounted and a shoot through umbrella - You point the strobe at the umbrella and point the whole thing at the subject.<br>

2 - Pocket wizzards - 1 for your camera - 1 on the strobe - this is how you will trigger the flash<br>

1 - good background</p>

<p>Tape to tape down any wires or cords.</p>

<p>Insurance</p>

<p>Method / way to track which child is which</p>

<p>More advanced things - props, 2nd or 3rd lights etc...</p>

<p>As a side note to the conversation regarding "big box" school photography - they regulary post ads on Craigslist looking for "photographers" no experience needed - $10.00 per hour to start. One of them (I know there are several) is headquartered here in Minneapolis - I just cringe when they come in...their whole approach to photography is cookie cutter - get the kids through as fast as possible -</p>

<p>Dave</p>

 

[William Michael]

<p>As the thread has moved wider than the initial lighting question to more general advice. . .<br>

<br>

I admire enthusiasm to do more than the "big school picture company". <br>

<br>

Initially, extreme focus on the nuts and bolts would be in your best interests, especially as you want to make a business out of this . . . so I will speak from a business perspective<br>

<br>

On the nuts and bolts and in no particular order of priority (other than point 1):<br>

<br>

1. Have Comprehensive Public Liability Insurance - You, Employees and all Equipment.<br>

<br>

2. Have Appropriate Tools of Trade<br>

<br>

3. Have System Redundancy – For You and your Tools of Trade<br>

<br>

4. Plan and have control over the Logistics of the Shoot.<br>

<br>

You will find that the less control you have over each element, beginning at Knowledge: the more difficult the job will be. <br>

<br>

In this regard, note there is less control over pre school children en masse, when they are outside than when they are inside – also note their average attention span.<br>

<br>

WW</p>

[shawnee_pedraza]

<p>Thank you everyone!!! I will be getting insurance :) I really want to offer a natural style school portrait...like the kids sitting in the grass etc... I will try my best to stay in the shade!!!</p>

<p>I really appreciate all the possitive feed back!</p>

[lex_jenkins]

<p><em>As one of the moderators of the Beginner Forum (there are several of us lurking around) I'd like to thank the folks who *constructively* raised the issue of liability insurance. Too often we see remarks that are dismissive at best and sarcastic and discouraging at worst from experienced photographers who lack the patience to constructively counsel ambitious new photographers regarding the complexities of the photography business.</em><br>

<em><br /> </em><br>

<em>Not everyone is temperamentally cut out for mentoring. We deeply appreciate those of you who are.</em></p>

[imagesbylori]

<p>Shawnee & I are going to rock the preschool portrait business around here with some unique natural portraits i know parents will love! =)<br>

Thanks to all for genuinely help us on our way, with your constructive feedback and advice!</p>

<p> </p>

[francie_baltazar]

<p>Shawnee - I really encourage you to take the children outside if you have the opportunity. You photos outside are a really nice - you might need a bit more fill flash - I did this for my son's school this year and photographed over 300 children and staff - it was a blast - took me 8 days to do it... leave yourself lots of time - and do get liability insurance - it is really important to have your bases covered on that. and as far as lights are concerned you might check out Strobist.com as they have a great tutorital on using flashes off camera that might work great for what you are doing... I just used fill flash and got an awesome result outside... if there is an area at the school you might consider this option - I also did the class photos on the playground - they turned out great... so good luck!</p>

[francie_baltazar]

<p>by the way if you join Photo.net as a member you can get discounted Liability insurance... which will cover you...</p>

[htarragon]

<p>I know this may seem paranoid but bear with me.<br>

A long time ago, there was a TV show called "Kids Say the Darndest Things" which showed instances of kids saying funny inappropriate things. More recently, in The Chronicle of Higher Education, there is a column of things that students, faculty and staff say things that are easily misconstrued. Your headline made me laugh and then as I thought about it, it wasn't so funny.<br>

Google your name and see if that headline isn't attached to it. Stupid things happen. Data mining, Homeland Security, not reading past the first line. It was once said "Don't put anything online you wouldn't want splashed on the front page of your daily newspaper".<br>

It's still a funny line, but only in this context.<br>

As they used to say on "Hill Street Blues", "Be careful out there."<br>

Howard</p>

[shawnee_pedraza]

<p>Thanks Howard... I never would have thought about that...</p>

[steve_swinehart]

<p>As someone who has done school photography - you only need two lights. Use umbrellas for reflectors. You can shoot through the umbrellas if they are the correct type, but I would recommend using them as reflectors.</p>

<p>As you face the students, put the lights at about a 35-40 degree angle from the centerline of the camera lens on each side. You want one light up high - about 18-24 inches higher than the head. I always put this light on the right hand side (student's left side). This will be your main light and hair light. The height of the second light (your left, student's right) you want the middle of the umbrella even with the middle of the face - this will be your fill light.</p>

<p>You will either need a flash meter or you need to take some test shots to get the distances correct. OR, you can have the flash heads at the same distance and run different power levels. You want a lighting ratio of not more than 1:2 with 1:1.5 being optimum for color images.</p>

<p>You want to shoot at at f5.6 or between f5.6 and f8 as you don't want the background in focus, but you want the entire head in focus.</p>

<p>Now comes the hard part - posing the students. Pre-school is especially difficult as their vocabulary and attention span are both limited. Part of the idea is to make the process a bit of a game with them and let the other students see what's going on. So, line them up (shortest to tallest or tallest to shortest - doesn't matter) - but the idea is you'll have to adjust the height of the camera on the tripod, and if you have them in a sequential height order, you're always moving the camera position in only one direction, rather than up and down if they're in a random height order.</p>

<p>As you line them up, this will give you a chance to talk with them. We always used to joke around with them and then give them funny names. You might ask a boy his name, and he'd say "I'm John." You'd say, "mmmm ...are you sure?" "You look like Mr. Hamburger to me." The kids would start laughing and you say to the next one..."What are you laughing at Mrs. Pickle?" Pretty soon, they all want to know what their name is going to be. The only problem is - you have to have about 20-30 different names like cartoon characters, etc.</p>

<p>Using this approach - you have no problem getting them smiling because they're all participating in this "fun event." When I used to do school pictures, we made it as fun for the children as possible and they always thought it was one of their best days to be at school.</p>

<p>Some other tricks -<br />If you have them seated, you'll find a lot of them will slump and not situp straight. Don't tell them to "sit up straight" - tell them to "sit up TALL." That works much better as they understand the concept of "tall."</p>

<p>With small children who's feet don't reach the ground in most kinds of chairs or on stools - posing them can become a real problem. One of the things I did was to put a piece of tape on the floor, and would tell them to stand with their heels on the tape. If you use the toes - the foot length will change the distance to the camera - using the heels - they're always the same distance. If you put the tape at a slight angle to the camera (like 15 degrees) - you automatically have them so that their shoulders are angled and you can then pose them back to the camera by asking them to look at you or look at your hand.</p>

<p>The cameras we used had electric shutters with 3-foot long cords so that you could walk away from the camera get at what ever height level you needed to be at and ask them to, "Look right at my nose." You verbally pose them just by asking them to look at you. In practice, you frame them in the camera with a little extra room in the frame for some movement, and then move off-camera and have them look at you. You can make them tilt their head up or down, left or right - just by looking at where you're standing.</p>

<p>Having them stand rather than sit for the photograph works for small children as you can verbally pose them, and they stand-up straight - no slumping. Believe it or not, speed (which has been previously criticized by the unknowing) is part of the process. If you can get them participating in the "photo event," it is much easier to verbally pose them quickly as the kids don't get bored - remember, their attention span is not that long so you have to work with them quickly to get a good photo within the window of full attention and participation.</p>

<p>Believe me - if you think you're going to take 2-3 minutes per child - your photos won't be as good as if you work rapidly with them so their not "thinking" about having their picture taken.</p>

<p>With a 35mm camera, a focal length of 80-90mm will be about right F5.6 to F8.0 with the camera about 5-6 feet from the tape location. Do some testing first - use these ideas and you too can be a school photo professional.....</p>

[steve_swinehart]

<blockquote>

<p>photographed over 300 children and staff - it was a blast - took me 8 days to do it</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I used to do 150 students per hour on average....but, I had schools that often had 500 or more students; and they wanted them done in one day so that the school routine was minimally disrupted. The biggest school I did was a middle school with 3,500 students. For that one, we used three photographers and it took two days, as I also had to do yearbook candid photos...which was day two (for me) as the other two photographers finished the remainder of the students.</p>

[shawnee_pedraza]

<p>STEVE, Thank you soooo much. This school is a pre-school with 80 kids. There will be two photographers. We want all the shots to be outside, however if the weather is bad we will do it indoors.</p>

 

[steve_swinehart]

<p>I have a couple of other observations. You have to remember, these are school pictures not custom portraits. School pictures are to send to relatives and trade with other kids in the school. You need to be able to setup photo packages. We usually had three packages with different price ranges corresponding to the amount of photos in the package. The high end package might have two 8x10s, two 5x7's, 12 wallet size, and 24 "friendship" size prints. Middle might have one 8x10, one 5x7, and 12 wallet size. The low end one 5x7 and 12 wallet size.</p>

<p>Always take a picture of all of the children whether they are paying for a package or not. You want all of the kids to have the same experience. The amount of extra time spent is negligible . Also, you cannot believe the number of times we were called by a school asking if we could make a photo of a student who had died....we always did an entire package of the child for free and sent it to the school for delivery to the parents or grand parents.<br>

At least one week prior to the scheduled day, send fliers home with the children stating what is in the packages and reminding the parents to make sure the children are dressed the way they want to see them in the photo. On the day you shoot, have each sample package displayed on a nice background with the associated prices.</p>

<p>We used to pass out free combs to all of the kids. This actually comes in handy as there will always be children who need there hair combed. DO NOT do it yourself - ask a parent or teacher to comb the hair. We never physically touched any of the children accept in special cases where we had to adjust the glasses to get glare out of them (tip them forward slightly) - or, after several attempts at voice posing, the child just didn't get it. Make sure the teacher or a parent is ALWAYS present when you are making the photographs.</p>

<p>Have the people pay in advance so you don't make extra packages that are not purchased. Also, setup a day and time with the school in advance for "retakes" so that if people are not satisfied with the photo, they get it redone for free. If you're really good at what you do, the retake rate will be 1% or less (I averaged under 1% over three years) - and did about 40,000 pictures a year....gaaaaak...</p>

<p>Lastly, you don't want to compete with yourself with the school pictures for custom portraits of the children and the families. These are school pictures you're doing NOT custom portraits. The idea with school pictures is to make a good quality picture and deliver a range of sizes at a really good price so that the photos can be sent to friends and relatives - that's not what you do with custom portraits.</p>

<p>If you want to do real portraits, either do it at your studio, or setup a "family night" at the school. I used to do about 25 family nights a year where we literally brought the studio to the school with several large backgrounds, three sets of strobes, and a makeup person. We would spend about 30-45 minutes with each family doing both individual and family photos - that was an ala carte service where they ordered whatever they wanted in size and quantity.</p>

<p>If you have nice grounds outside the school, you could setup the same type of thing in the spring on a Saturday and do it outdoors if you have nice weather.</p>

<p> </p>

[shawnee_pedraza]

<p>Steve, Family night is a great idea. Yes, we came up with some nice packages that are priced along the same lines as the "big" portrait company. We are also going to offer a class photo ala carte.</p>

<p>Thank you Steve for taking your time to help me. It means a lot to us "beginners"<br>

-Shawnee</p>

[francie_baltazar]

<p>I did portraits for my school not standard school photos - got at 95% puchase rate and would do it no other way - I shoot only private schools who are interested in portraitures not school photos... that's my different - quality vs. quanity... not to say that Steve's photos are not quality I am sure they are quality school photos...</p>