Mamiya 7 or TLR for street photography?

[barry_passaris]

<p>Hi all,<br />I currently shoot street photography with a a Leica M7 and 35mm 'Cron...stealth shooting, daylight photos, Provia 400x. Which medium camera could achieve something similar so I can produce larger prints?<br>

<br />1. The Mamiya 7 with a 65mm lens? Can I really use this camera like a Leica? I can barely get away with the Leica as a stealth camera. Doesn't the large size of the camera held up to the eye prevent the camera from achieving stealth street photography? Don't people immediately turn away? (No, I do not shoot from the hip!).<br>

<br />2. Will a TLR with an equivalent focal length lens allow for more stealth shooting than the Mamiya, as it does not need to be held up to your eye?<br>

If TLR:<br />a. are there any TLRs which are 6x7 and not 6x6? b. light enough (but still steady) for hand held work? (I'm smallish built).<br />c. more recent model which won't break down immediately (I'm not technically minded that way.."if it broke, throw away!").<br />d. price is limited to the cost of a new Mamiya 7+65mm lens but more likely the price of a used one.<br />Any advice appreciated.</p>

 

[wai_leong_lee]

If you can't use a M7 for street photography then it's just your technique, peoplr have been using slr's and rf's for street photography forever.

 

Tlr's are difficult to use till you're used to the reverse orientation. And with the m7 you can handhold to 1/8, something I doubt tlr's can do.

[d_purdy]

<p>I would think the TLR would be a little slow for spontaneous shooting. Though some people say you are less noticed because you are looking down at the view finder. Either camera can be bought used and re sold for not a lot of loss of your investment.</p>

[mike_earussi1]

<p>There is no TLR with an equivalent focal length except the Rollei Wide, which is very expensive--if you can find one, and the Mamiya 330 series of cameras which are very heavy and bulky (actually Koni-Omega also had a 6x7 TLR, but with their 55mm lens it is even heavier and bulkier that the Mamiya). But if you can live with a normal lens a TLR would be preferred because you<em> can</em> take a photo without looking like you are doing so.</p>

[barry_passaris]

<p><<<a href="../photodb/user?user_id=827079">Wai-Leong Lee</a>...If you can't use a M7 for street photography then it's just your technique, peoplr have been using slr's and rf's for street photography forever. >><br>

I'm assuming you are referring to the Mamiya 7 and not the Leica M7 (which I can use!).<br />I have not seen many photos online of 'true' street photos (Cartier-Bresson style) involving people as subject but taken by stealth using the Mamiya. I do see a lot of architectural/landscape and people posing in the streets but no real great 'street' photos. Could this be that this camera is simply too big for this type of shooting?<br />Can anyone direct me to any online sites of pro/quality street photos using the Mamiya 7?</p>

[toni_nikkanen]

<p>About TLR's... as you can shoot from the waist, camera shake need not be such a big problem as it is in eye-level shooting, as you can anchor the camera to your belly button. Also the leaf shutter in TLR's is very quiet and causes no shake.</p>

<p>I have a Mamiya 7 and the first reaction people have when they see with it is, "wow that's an impressive camera you have there", so I would guess stealth shooting is not easy with it. The good thing is that the viewfinder is good and the shutter is very quiet and causes no camera shake whatsoever though.</p>

<p> </p>

[berlinhennig]

<p>The art of street photography does not have to do anything with the camera and not at all with the size. You can work with a Minox as well as with a Graflex as long as you will be "invisible". For the "victims" the size of the camera does not count as long as they will see a lens.<br /> <br /> So if size is no issue every thing focus on the speed and light. For a TLR you need much more time for the complete handling and much more light too. Therefore this question does not really arise.<br /> <br /> The sense of your wish of 6x7 instead of 6x6 escapes me since with your selected lens you either have to crop the picture or you will stumble over your motif. If you crop you can also change the aspect ratio (espacially since 6x7 is also not the same ratio as the Leica 3:2).<br /> <br /> Regarding your issue "c)" the Mamiya 6 will be the better choice anyway because it is a solid masterpiece of Mamiya.<br /> <br /> <br /> I hope the following photos will give an impression of what I mean. The photo was originally made as a test shot for the G 150mm 1:4,5 lens of the Mamiya 6 on an Ilford XP2. The distance between the "victim" and me amounts to 10m.<br /> <br /> <img src="http://www.berlinhennig.de/photonet/_MF_0008-1.jpg" alt="" /> <br /> Original 6 x 6 Mamiya 6 size<br /> <br /> <img src="http://www.berlinhennig.de/photonet/_MF_0008-2.jpg" alt="" /> <br /> Cropped similar to 135 film ratio 3 x 2 but still the 6 x 6 resolution of 6800px wide<br /> <br /> <img src="http://www.berlinhennig.de/photonet/_MF_0008-3.jpg" alt="" /> <br /> Now cropped to the original 135 film size.<br /> <br /> If you will use this picture uncropped or in 6 x 7 you will have a lot more <em>street</em> but less <em>photography</em> , so that the size is not really an argument. On the other hand if you are too close to your motiv you rather need a shrub than a better camera.</p>

<p>P.S.: The quiet shutter is a very good issue. I remember all the hundred motifs on the streets running away totally upset by the loud shutter noise over the years ;-)</p>

[eskoi.pohjanpalo]

<p>My experiences in using TLR in street photography are very good. After checking the needed aperture and shutter time I adjust the distance to wanted, normally 3 meters. Then I have in f8 range from 2m to around 5m as DOF and I can shoot even the waist level finder closed, just accepting that all photos are not perfect. Here one successful taken with Rolleiflex GX 2.8.</p><div></div>

[eskoi.pohjanpalo]

<p>Sorry for the too big file, here smaller</p><div></div>

[barry_passaris]

<p>Thanks for all your comments so far..<br /><br /><<The sense of your wish of 6x7 instead of 6x6 escapes me since with your selected lens you either have to crop the picture or you will stumble over your motif. If you crop you can also change the aspect ratio (espacially since 6x7 is also not the same ratio as the Leica 3:2).>> <a rel="nofollow" href="../photodb/user?user_id=2351337">D.O. Hennig</a><br /><br />D.O., I think you've misunderstood me here or possibly I didn't explain correctly..I don't want to maintain the same aspect ratio as 135 format. The format ratio doesn't matter except that I prefer not to have a completely square format...I also never crop my images, even for street photography. So, my style is to be very close to the subject matter, rather than shooting from a distance or across the street. In this way, a 35mm lens (in 135 format) is ideal. Ironically, being closer to the subject is more stealth and people are less likely to object to being photographed even if they notice, and less likely to turn away from the shot...just my experience with the Leica which I wish to replicate using MF.<br /><br />I still am undecided about this so any other comments would be appreciated.<br /><br />FWIW, I did manage to find some links of pros using the Mamiya 7:<br /><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.klmphoto.com/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.klmphoto.com/index.html</a><br /><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.haywood-sullivan.com/photography/index.html?Gallery2/index.html~mainFrame" target="_blank">http://www.haywood-sullivan.com/photography/index.html?Gallery2/index.html~mainFrame</a><br /><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.stillsgallery.com.au/artists/parke/index.php?obj_id=series_02&nav=2" target="_blank">http://www.stillsgallery.com.au/artists/parke/index.php?obj_id=series_02&nav=2</a></p>

[barry_passaris]

<p>...I forgot to ask...if the Mamiya 7 is used in the 'normal' horizontal position, is the image 6cm horizontally and 7cm vertically or vice versa?</p>

[toni_nikkanen]

<p>In the normal position, the image is 7cm horizontally on 5.6cm vertically (as 6x7 is actually 5.6x7, just like 6x6 is actually 5.6 x 5.6).<br>

So it's not like some 6x4.5 rangefinders where the "normal" position gets you portrait images.</p>

 

[berlinhennig]

<blockquote>

<p>D.O., I think you've <em>misunderstood</em> me here or possibly I didn't explain correctly.</p>

</blockquote>

<p>I must have, because if I follow your links I only find photos of streets (what - in my understanding - not means the same as streetphotography) and great portraits. Therefore it only proofs that pros' are using 6x7 but I bet all my Mamiyas that there is an equivalent number of pros' using 6 x 6.</p>

<p>It is senseless to argue against a "never cropper". There is no argument good enough. I, for my side don't like Hasselblad (don't as, it is like it is) but I love the square size since I had my first exhibition with 6 x 7 photographies where I had to pay more than double for the passepartouts.</p>

<p>I really don't want to convince you (why should I - each 6 user more brings the prices up;-) but to inform you. <a href="http://www.kenrockwell.com/mamiya/6vs7.htm">So here you will find the often quoted page of <em>Ken Rockwell 6 vs. 7</em> </a></p>

<p>Nothing more to add.</p>

 

[berlinhennig]

<p>Toni,</p>

<p>Could you please satisfy my curiosity and tell me which rangefinders have 6x4,5? Thx in advance.</p>

<p> </p>

<blockquote>

<p>So it's not like some 6x4.5 rangefinders where the "normal" position gets you portrait images.</p>

</blockquote>

[stuart_richardson]

<p>The Bronica RF is 645 and in portrait orientation, which is what Toni was probably referring to. As for the Mamiya 7 on the street -- well, I agree that street photography is not about camera size or stealth, but about how you present yourself and act. In use, the Mamiya 7 is much like the M7. Obviously it is bigger, has slower lenses and a 1/500th instead of 1/1000th top speed. It has a quieter shutter though. But anyway, Mary Ellen Mark and Eikoh Hosoe use the Mamiya 7....if it is good enough for them...</p>

<p> </p>

[toni_nikkanen]

<p>Also Fuji has a few 645 RF models that are portrait in the normal orientation.</p>

[berlinhennig]

<p>Thx Stuart and Toni nobody can knows all the different types, but it is always interesting learning more about our tools of trade.</p>

<p>Important is not the camera - important is that you <strong><em>love your camera</em> </strong> then so does she and this is the first (& most important) step to the best picture. <em><strong>Be one with your camera!</strong> </em></p>

[barry_passaris]

<p><<It is senseless to argue against a "never cropper". There is no argument good enough.>><a href="../photodb/user?user_id=2351337">D.O. Hennig</a><br />I don't crop because that's the way I've been taught how to shoot..if you find it easier to crop, then do so...I'm not here to argue but to seek advice.</p>

[berlinhennig]

<p>Barry,</p>

<p>I don't find it easier to crop but sometimes you have to and sometimes you have not to crop. I think in good photography is no place for an "never".</p>

<p>By the way, <a href="http://www.kennerly.com/">David Hume Kennerly </a> does use a 7II with the 43mm lens. And the well known Berlin located German photographer <a href="http://www.eyed.de/index.php5">Jim Rakete</a> uses a 6 or 7 (but when I saw him he used it for head shots ?)</p>

<p>And there is a hole <a href="http://www.mamiya7.com/">website for 6 & 7 photography</a> in the net.</p>

[allancobb]

<p>Barry,<br>

I've used a Yashica D TLR as a street camera on a few occasions, and even a 6x9 Zeiss Ikonta folder fairly frequently! Here are examples of both:</p>

<p>The Yashica: <a href="../photo/2237747">http://www.photo.net/photo/2237747</a> </p>

<p>The Ikonta: <a href="../photo/6982039">http://www.photo.net/photo/6982039</a> </p>

<p>The point being, just about anything can be used as long as you are comfortable with it and YOU are happy with the results. There are no hard and fast rules!</p>

<p>Regarding the Mamiya 7 vs. the Bronica RF645, here's an interesting comparison:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=60012">http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=60012</a></p>

<p>The author seemed to prefer the Bronica as a street camera, but again, the choice is yours for what works best for you; like D.O. said, "love and be one with your camera"! Everything else will fall into place thereafter.</p>

[gary_gumanow]

<p>Timely question. I too am considering a 6x6 street shooter, mobile, that has a wider lens, even wider than 65mm. I'm think Hassy SWC with 38mm. The 65mm will give you minimal depth of field, and for street shooting that can spell death. I shoot a Leica M6 TTL with 28mm and want something similar with the bigger 6x6 neg.<br>

I've been shooting a Rolleiflex 2.8C on the street and get close to people, real close. Sometimes at minimal focal distance, 3 feet. I love both types of shooting. I would recommend you spend some time with a TLR on the street. Just remember that the 80mm will not give you the focal DoF for foreground and background sharpness in your shots. I'm thinking about a 7ii with 43mm, but the 38mm is closer to the depth that I want. Make sense? <br>

Example: <a href="

[ralph_jensen]

<p>I know it may be heresy to bring digital into this discussion, but if the eye-level camera is the issue, have you considered the "digital TLR," the Sony R1? Beautiful files (at ISO 160-200), waist-level viewing, 24-120 zoom, virtually silent, 100%-accurate framing, autofocus (and the autofocus point can be put almost anywhere in the frame with a simple joystick movement), $500.</p>

<p>With an R1 I routinely click off 10 or more shots of people 6-10 feet away that have zero idea they're being photographed (they think I'm just "fiddling" with my camera, not taking pictures with it!).</p>

<p>If you're wedded to film, disregard this suggestion (I love my Leica M's too), but if digital is at all an option, the Sony can do some things no other APS-C-sensor camera can.</p>

[berlinhennig]

<p>Ralph it is not heresy but it totally failes the issue since this is about the 200+ mpx range.<br /> <br /> The R1 has not much more than 10 mpx. Read the opening posting and you will see it is all about larger prints.<br /> <br /> The R1 not even approaches the size of a Leica M7 print.</p>

[oistrakh]

<p>Seems like there is very little love for TLR's here. I personally think the TLR is wonderful for stealth street photography, I've done a little bit of that with a Mamiya 330. As long as you can get used to the waist-level finder, I think it works great. There are two keys to using it quickly:</p>

<p>1. You usually have to pre-focus and pre-meter. Not much different from using any rangefinder that doesn't have a built-in meter. It requires more anticipation, but good photography is a product of anticipation, in my opinion. The rack and pinion focusing will be no slower than that of a Leica or any other manual focus lens, once you get used to it.<br>

2. The fact that the camera sits at your waist is a huge advantage for stealth purposes. You can cover it up with a jacket, you can pre-compose your image then look away while taking the image, you can be talking right at someone while your hands are shooting. Then again, if you don't like "shooting from the hip", keep in mind that a TLR is basically shooting from the hip all the time!<br>

3. There is basically no vibration whatsoever when shooting a Mamiya TLR, since the shutters are leaf, and the camera can be hanging on a strap off of your neck. With training half-second exposures are not out of the question. Your subject is more likely to move and cause blur than your camera.</p>

<p>I think considering the extremely low cost of Mamiya TLR's (as well as the many other kinds of TLR's on the market), it makes sense for you to pick one up off eBay and try it. The Mamiya 6 and 7 are going for ridiculous amounts of money still in the used market, so it's certainly easier to try out a TLR than to try out a Mamiya 6 or 7 rangefinder.</p>

[thomas_sullivan]

<p>I use a Mamiya TLR, Mamiya 7, and a Mamiya 645 (and also a variety of 35mm SLRs both film and digital, and RFs and a Ricoh GRD) for street shooting. I have no problem shooting with any of them. Like some said above, it has nothing to do with the equipment. Its your attitude. You have to develop the absolute belief that you belong out there shooting street. If you don't believe it, no one else will either. You have to emit an aura that states emphatically that I belong here shooting your picture. Get into that frame of mind and no one will say anything to you. I use to get hassled all the time when I first started, haven't been even approached as to what I was doing in years now.</p>