Second try -- first one was way screwd up...

[beac]

<p>Like most of us I think, I take my camera with me almost wherever I go, including when I pick my kids up from school, sporting events, etc. I've been getting good feedback from the pics I take of my kids and their friends, and recently the school used several of my photos in a brochure. <br>

I'm looking for input on how best to organize a small side business around candid school photos. Essentially, I'd like to go to games, events, etc (I'm there anyway and I have my camera) and offer the pics I take to parents for a reasonable price. <br>

I'm not looking for full time work, really only to support my photo addiction...I mean hobby, by taking the pics, doing some minimal editing, cropping, etc. posting them to a web site and letting the web site do the rest.<br>

My sense is there are services out there that will provide "soup to nuts" hosting, e-commerce, printing/finishing, etc. solutions. I'd like to make it really easy on the parents if possible. Log in, select the pics they want, maybe do some simple cropping, retouching options, etc. select "order", quantity, etc. and have the pics show up in their mail box a few days later. <br>

Does anyone have experience with these types of services at the commercial level? I currently use MPIX for my own work and have been very happy, but would like to use the corporate knowledge here to narrow down my choices to those services that work for the more experienced.<br>

Also:<br>

Do I offer the use of the images for free to the school in exchange for "sanctioned" access to events? I'm not sure I can drive a hard bargain here, mostly since my wife teaches at the school as well and my kids get a fantastic education for essentially free!<br>

Are the digital files normally offered for download along with the ability to buy prints?<br>

Thanks in advance for any advice.</p>

[duncanholmes]

<p>Financially it is a difficult area for business as any "candid" school event photos are usually taken by parents and they're not loking for professional level pics.<br>

Quite a few schools are also going to extremes and banning all cameras/video cameras etc. Plus here in the UK for example you'd need something like the Disclosure Scotland declaration before being allowed to work with or around children.<br>

Some schools have contracted services for the annual school photos and are often tied to this contract for any other photographic requirements. If working with a school they will usually take a percentage of any sales as part of the deal.<br>

Photo releases may also be an issue as identifiable photos would not be sellable to 3rd parties (i.e. the school) without release from the parents as guardians for the children. And this would be difficult to control and administer online, especially at sporting or theatrical events where several children might feature in one picture.</p>

 

[kerry_goodwin]

<p>I could have sworn I replied to this earlier but now I don't see the post!</p>

<p>I would recommend photoreflect.com. I use it for proofing which is free until someone purchases something from the site. Then they take a small percentage. I don't use them for printing but I believe you can get that done through them as well.</p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

[kerry_goodwin]

<p>I could have sworn I replied to this earlier but now I don't see the post!</p>

<p>I would recommend photoreflect.com. I use it for proofing which is free until someone purchases something from the site. Then they take a small percentage. I don't use them for printing but I believe you can get that done through them as well.</p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

[alan_myers]

<p>Hi,</p>

<p>I use Printroom.com for gallery postings and order fulfillment.</p>

<p>I mostly photograph equine events, involving both kids and adults, mostly amateur but a few semi-pro. You are welcome to visit www.printroom.com/pro/amfoto1 if you want to see how the site works. I think I have about 100 galleries total and probably 20,000 or more thumbnails posted there now.</p>

<p>It costs me $99 a year at Printroom. In addition they get a percentage of my sales throughout the year. I feel it's cost effective because it's a huge time saver, plus through them I'm able to offer my customers a much greater selection of print sizes and types, as well as a variety of paper finishes and other printable novelties than I'd ever be able to do on my own. Also I don't have to be set up to accept credit cards or deal with packing and shipping demands.</p>

<p>There is generally no problem shooting and posting images in this way, a model release is not required (the entire amateur sports photo industry would collapse if that were the case) and I've never had a single complaint from a parent in four years doing this.</p>

<p>There may be some local laws and ordinances to protect kids in some US towns.... Check locally.</p>

<p>Nearly all schools and youth sports orgs have an injury waiver signed by the kid's parents or guardians. Read some of these and you will frequently find a paragraph about photography being done, too. There is no reasonable expectation of privacy at these events. This waiver does not authorize general commercial usage of the image, but sometimes specifically allows the school or organizer to use it for self-promotion.</p>

<p>But, first things first. You need permission to shoot from the organizer for several reasons.</p>

<p>One is that they may already be contracted with a photographer for this purpose, and there may be an exclusivity clause in the contract, which won't prevent parents from taking their own, personal shots but would prevent another photographer from doing commercial work, as in shooting and selling the images to parents, etc.</p>

<p>Another reason is that these organizations are charged with the safety of the children in their temporary care at these functions. Most don't and certainly shouldn't allow just anyone to come in and take photos. Now in the US this might infringe a little on some constitutional rights, especially when shooting on public property, but whenever kids are involved the courts tend to strongly rule on the side of safety even if it's at the cost of a few personal freedoms of some photographer.</p>

<p>So, touch base with whoever is in charge, and get a written agreement in place. It's just common courtesy and they can likely help you gain access to special areas and help you in other ways.</p>

<p>Next, consider what's truly viable as a business venture. Cameras are becoming ubiquitous. They are in phones and computers an hanging from lamp posts. Highly advanced compact digital P&S models are relatively cheap and easy to use. More advanced DSLRs are affordable, also highly automated and widely available. So, many parents simply take their own shots. They might comment that your shots are very nice, but that doesn't mean they will actually buy prints or digital files from you. My biggest competition these days is not other, commercial photographers... It's parents, some of whom are nearly as well armed with camera equipment as me.</p>

<p>Look at the youth team sports photography industry closely. Most pros working this make their money with what are called "T&I" setup shots. These are "team" and "individual" portraits, usually all taken one afternoon during the season, and posed with various portrait methods. They get shots of every player, as well as one of the entire team, and these sell well.</p>

<p>But, many (most?) of these sports pros rarely show up for the same team's regular season games. They ignore the candid shot opportunities. The reason is simple... They know the investment of time and effort is very large for minimal payoff in candid/game action print sales potential.</p>

<p>Now, they may show up at a few games during the season... Or at special ones featuring a strong competitive rivalry... And may or may not stay for the whole game. Or they might hire a kid or two for minimum wage and send them out to shoot some of the games. And if the team makes it to the playoffs and championship, you can usually bet they'll be at those games. </p>

<p>I'm not writing this to discourage you, but to point out a posible opportunity. If you find the school or youth sports org already has a contract in place with a pro shooter for their T&I, go meet with the photographer and discuss the idea of you shooting some candids throughout the season. As a parent of the kids participating, you might already be there and can go ahead and get some shots to supplement what the pro is doing with their T&I. It might make for a great partnership.</p>

<p>Earlier I mentioned that no model releases are required, and that's true for the display of the images online in thumbnail galleries and print sales to parents and guardians.</p>

<p>However, I strongly pursue getting releases signed at all the events I shoot. The reason is simple. With a signed release I now have the ability to sell the image as stock, for commercial usage. Suddenly the value of a good image goes from a $20 8x10 print to perhaps a $400 license to use the image in an ad, and it can be sold over and over for a wide variety of possible usages for many years to come. An image can be sold for editorial usage without a release, but one is essential to sell it for commercial purposes. (Note: I'm not talking about "microstock" either... I generally avoid that.)</p>

<p>Oh, and I don't pay any percentage of my sales to any of the organizations I work with. I know that's a trend in some places and with some types of shooting, but I don't intend to ever "pay to shoot" like that. I'd just walk away from any such "deal". I feel it's a very, very bad precedent to get into, that will lead to all sorts of future problems.</p>

<p>Heck, before digital the same people with their hands out now had to pay a substantial shooting fee to get a photographer to come out! That was quite justifiable due to the cost of film and processing. Now with digital the attitude is that it's "free" for the photographer (nothing could be farther from the truth), so some organizers and schools are seeing dollar signs flashing at them from photogs' foreheads!</p>

<p>I do get unusual access and lots of support from the organizers I work with (links from their websites, mentions in their newsletters, PA announcements at events). In turn I offer them free usage of some of my images for their own promotion purposes - newsletters, websites, ads, etc. - which is really mutually beneficial. I also am happy to help them out with other occasional photo needs, sometimes free of charge, sometimes at discounted rates.</p>

<p>And I do occasionally pay a modest "vendor fee" for larger events. This is not common, but would be in situations where we're doing on-site printing and sales, so we need access to electricity, a prominent place to set up a booth, etc.</p>

<p>This is certainly not the same as offering a percentage of sales to the school or organizer. The only time I would only do that would be in a charitable situation. For example, at shoots I've done for some church events I've tithed 10% of gross sales.</p>

<p>I also occasionally donate products or services as a form of sponsorship. For example, at a Finals even last year I gave gift certificates for 16x20 photo montages, which were a new product we were introducing at the time, as part of the prize package for the high points winners in the show's various categories. Actual cost to me if all five gift certificates were redeemed would be $100, but the retail and stated value was over $300. This worked out great and I got a ton of good will and promotion through the organization as a result.</p>

[beac]

<p>Alan, thanks for all the great advice. I also looked at your website and it seems perfect for what I envision. I've been very happy with Mpix.com for my personal stuff, and they just added a hosting/commerce solution, but it would be tough to top Printroom.com by the looks of it.<br>

I'm really only looking for a way to support my hobby at events I will be at anyway. If I net a few bucks and can buy a new Nikkor f2.4 every so often, that is really all I'm in it for!<br>

I will discuss the concept with the business folks at the school. Conveniently, my wife works there so I know them all and they have already used a few of my pics.<br>

I don't have a fast indoor zoom yet (70-200ish f2.4) but have a consumer grade 70 - 300 that I think would be great to start with this spring (baseball, etc). If I can sell some pics, perhaps I could upgrade to a used fast tele for the indoor stuff.<br>

Once again, thanks for the fantastic advice.</p>