Patterson reels: dry but still sticky

[sfcole]

I've used my Patterson reels for 20 years, but it seems I'm having a recent problem: both my 35 and 120 film just won't seem to go on.

They feel like they're wet, but I know everything is dry. It's driving me crazy. Film used to glide right on. Does the plastic degrade over

time? Does photo-flo cause this? Any suggestions?

thanks

[adam_n.1]

photo-flo residue

[lex_jenkins]

Very unlikely it's Photo Flo. Plastics do degrade over time. Absorption of other chemicals may be a factor. Ozone damage may be a factor. Photo Flo is the least likely factor. See this recent thread discussing the popular myth about wetting agents:<p>

 

<a href="http://www.photo.net/black-and-white-photo-film-processing-forum/00Qme6" ><b>FACT OR URBAN LEGEND? #1: Wetting agents contaminate reels.</b></a>

[bruce_karnopp1]

You might check the little metal balls that catch the film. I wash my reels in my Bosch dish washer from time to time and I check them with a piece of film before turning out the lights.

[ronald_moravec1]

Try running thru a dishwasher or wash with detergent and a toothbrush.

 

One person here claimed blix for color neg worked. No opinion on that. Soak in bleach half at a time.

 

Wash these well after each use.

[aplumpton]

Unless you have the problem of a particular water analysis that tends to leave deposits, I would simply wash very

thoroughly under fast running water after each use, disassemble the reels into their parts and let dry in a well ventilated

place (and/or use a hair dryer at low heat to aid drying). I also trim off the front edges of the exposed film by small 45

degree cuts before loading, to enable better entry and film advance while loading. Not easy to do in the dark, but easier with practice.

[brucecahn]

As mentioned above a toothbrush will clean them, but I would just replace them. 20 years is not bad. You don't get 20 years out of a lot of things.

[frank.schifano]

Well, if your reels are dry but still sticky then they are either A) not dry, though you think they are, or B)

are gummed up with something. Sweaty hands in a changing bag is enough moisture to gum up a plastic reel. Lex

says it probably isn't PhotoFlo, and he's right IF... IF you are careful about cleaning the reels after each

use. IF you have been careful to not let crud build up in the first place. I can't emphasize this enough - you

can not ever get lazy about cleanliness in the darkroom. Do so, and you'll have a mess on your hands that's a

bear to clean up and lots of wasted film, paper, and chemistry.

[bruce_karnopp1]

If you are going to replace reels that are used for 120 film, consider getting ULTRA reels. These have wide flanges on them (about 3/4 inch) that make loading 120 a pleasure. There are also simple loaders made by NOVA that hold the film and reel parallel. THe combination of Ultra reels and the NOVA loader makes loading 120 a pleasure. The problem is that the NOVA loader may be available only in Great Britain.

[cb_martinez]

Tip: Run a pencil lead in the spiral grove of both flanges. Then load your film as you normally do. I learned this trick many years ago and have tried it a few times when I have difficulty in loading films.

[jpo3136b]

I refuse to even attempt to compete with Lex's thread on the subject.

 

I can tell you, however, that 20 year old plastic can degrade even if you didn't soak it harsh chemicals. For example, I

once inherited a simple plastic tea pitcher that my grandmother got back in the 70s (or even older than that). The finish

on the plastic had dried out over the years, causing the appearance of a gray film. I rubbed it down with a little wax; the

wax transferred some mineral oil to the finish; it shined again like new. Probably not the answer for your reels, but recall

that they are made of oils. It would seem to be only natural that plastics on the surface would lose a little bit of their

oiliness; maybe they'll pucker slightly, on a microscopic level, creating just enough roughness to change the surface

from a glossy smooth to a matt finish.

 

Art historians have noted a similar gray cast of plastics degradation related to paintings that were coated in early, 1960s, forms of clear

acrylic sealant. Initially, it was thought that because these plastics had lasted so well during laboratory testing that they would survive

unaffected in gallery environments for 100 years. However, after about 20 years, a discoloration began to set in; this was very

noticeable, and something had to be done about it because the paintings rely on transparent sealant coatings to maintain their structural

integrity and their financial value. Well, so it was determined that even though the overall thickness of the acrylics had not degraded,

they had decayed just enough on the surface to cause this discoloration. And, I believe, that surface discoloration was associated with

a blanching of the surface caused by repeated, constant cycles of condensation and evaporation that take place normally as relative

humidity fluctuates with temperatures in indoor environments. Climate controlled interiors are actually very dry places to begin with; add

in seasonal temperature changes and, in the case of the painting s and the developing reels, repetitive exposure to ox and redox

reactions, the top layer of the plastic is just going to get sucked dry.

 

I tried to tell someone in another thread about how interior relative humidity measurements are completely different from most of the data

we collect on relative humidity (because that atmospheric data is largely collected about the outside air), but they wouldn't listen. That's

okay, but what I'm telling you is, the humidity indoors is much different than it is outdoors, and it's the humidity in the environment

immediately surrounding the object that counts. When I was dickering with the others of humidity, we were talking about camera

storage. In the case of camera storage, someone was trying to say that the cameras were being stored inside a building with 100%

humidity. I didn't follow that because I would have expected, in that case, for there to be a big fog bank in the lobby or a monsoon rain

in the kitchen or something. Neither here nor there. In the case of the developing reels, they will, however, face a change from 100%

humidity all the way down to about 5%. They'll get repeatedly sucked dry.

 

And, they'll be repeatedly sucked dry, over 20 years, following exposures to chem solutions ranging in pH from base (10, 11, 12 pH) to

acid (vinegars at 2.8 pH). That's quite a bit of performance that we expect from them. Of course, they're wearing out. Go stainless!

 

Stainless, too, though, will decay, as does any metal compound exposed to air; but, that's a different story.

 

I know that to check the finish on a surface, that can be done with a simple measurement based on angle of incidence

and angle of reflection. I picked this up from several books on woodworking; one was called "Understanding Wood," it

was written by a guy named Bruce Hoadley, Ph. D. in timeber frame engineering at Yale University. I think Doctor

Hoadley advised that the smoother a surface was, the greater the range at which it would reflect light clearly. I don't

remember the exact measurements, but I recall that 15 degrees or less was one significant measurement (boundary for

matt finishes?) and that 60 degrees was another (boundary for glossy finishes?). He had a diagram in his book, I think.

The point of that might be that I guess it would be possible to setup a simple experiment in a dimly lit room, using a

strong point source of light, like a flashlight in a tube, to try to check out the quality of the smoothness of the surface by

tracking the angles of incidence and reflection against the clarity of the shape of the specular highlight or the reflection

itself. This is done to classify wood finishes, excepting those which contain artificial loose particles to simulate a semi-

gloss or matt surface. In his book, I think this is covered in around the same chapter as the story that explains the

origin of the word "spitshine"; which came from spitting any alcohol, Bourbon proof or higher, onto a shellacked surface

during a french polish.

 

So, if your surface is now too rough because it is older, and you can measure this, it may be because something else is

stuck to it, or because the material that makes up that surface itself has begun to slightly change shape. If it's got

something stuck to it, you should be able to clean it off. If it's begun to change shape, you may need to replace it or

figure out a way to refinish it, which, with plastic formed into a precise shape like a developing reel, might be difficult to

do.

 

I suspect you are going to need a new reel. I tried the stainless ones and liked them. You don't have the leaking problem as much with

the newer, tight-fitting lids. Wrap 'em in a towel anyway. Good luck. J.

[jpo3136b]

Be careful about what I just wrote about "any alcohol." That's a mistake. Of course, some forms of alcohol are poisonous

to humans. But, for spitshining, one can use any drinkable alcohol stronger than Bourbon. Whiskey, maybe Vodkas, or

Everclear come to mind. Avoid moonshine; unregulated alcohols can contain impurities that are bad for your health. J.

[aplumpton]

Might be best to simply replace the reels with new Paterson ones, if thorough washing does not solve your problem. You

needn't buy the whole System 4 or prior kit.

[john fleshin]

As I recall, Paterson began with some sort of transparent plastic reels (first ones I found in the Major series in the 60's), then made the newer reels out of what appeared to me to be nylon, and the last ones I bought seemed to be much thinner white plastic, some of which I managed to break. Never broke one of the "nylon" reels.

 

This factors in more variables, but I agree, really clean your reels, and after 20 years, if you have problems, swap them out for what ever you prefer, I think most of the reels made in the past 35 years interchange OK, and as the early tanks were prone to develop cracks in the bottom along the lines of the internal fins, I would not hold on to those if any problems arise. Paterson did replace those for a period of time, but do not think that program is still going. ;-)

 

I am curious though, have you tried loading them with a scrap roll of undeveloped film with the lights on and checking for any visible problems?

 

I have the occasional problem with a particular reel, and always try to have a few spares on the counter ready to go if I have a difficult one in hand. Getting too physical, especially with MF films, is asking for cupping marks and other physical damage.

 

Regards, John

[nathancraver]

I used to have problems with plastic reels not wanting to advance the film as it would get stuck on the little catch balls

that grip the film. I realized that it was the humidity from my arms and hands sweating and making the film sticky. I

found a solution that works every time: (1) Blow the bag out with a fan to dry it out and cool it down. (2) wash hands very

well with dishwashing detergent like Dawn or Palm Olive etc., this helps to dry skin and make it less oily. (3) Blow your

hands and arms off with a fan, this helps dry them and cool them down. (4) Keep a fan blowing on you while you are

using a changing bag. I have found that if I am cool outside of the bag, my arms and hands are less likely to sweat

inside the bag. (5) Always make sure your reels are clean and dry. If you have just finished doing one roll and want to do

another, after washing the reel, let it sit in front of the fan for about 10 or 15 minutes. You wouldn't believe what a

difference a $30 fan can make.

[nigel_craig]

Stick them in the oven on a low setting and then use kitchen towel to polish the grooves - always worked for me

[john fleshin]

Nathan, perhaps (and I am passing on the obvious joke here) the balls lose their grip?

 

It would not be a bad idea to put a stainless steel hook in the middle of plastic reels to allow center out loading as in the old fr tanks.

 

Seemed to work more easily than stainless with less possibility of film spirals touching.

 

Regards, John

[andrea_ingram2]

Soak the reels in household bleach they use a hair0dryer to warm the reels before each use . Works everytime

[nathancraver]

John - For me, it's not that the balls lose their grip, but that the balls get stuck and I can't twist the reel without the film binding up, and then I end up getting dark creases on the negatives. But after using my method listed above, I have no more problems.

[profhlynnjones]

They just need to be acid cleaned, Scott.

 

10% Sod. Bisulfite and soak all your hardware with it. Dont inhale the fumes they are very irritative. You will be amazed and the evil colored junk that will come out of that stuff.

 

Lynn

[andrew_brown7]

Hi All,

I've been using my Paterson reels for 30+ years and use lots of the tips here to keep them working easily, but from what i can tell they are still in great condition, apart from some slight discolourations on some of them..no way could i think to throw them out or even replace them. just keep everything cool as you work and be sure they really are dry. that goes for the film as well...but i am now wondering whether keeping exposed films in the fridge as i do, then bringing them out to process is contributing to the sticking problems. Maybe they should be left for 2 or 3 hours to acclimatize as there may be some form of condensation forming on them as they warm up after the fridge.

 

I'm always interested in finding out more about this magical activity!

 

Andy.