Any other rangefinders worth buying beside Leica?

[drjedsmith]

I only ask this because I can't afford a Leica M - or at least I don't think I can. I know I have asked about

rangefinders before in this forum a year ago, but never ended up taking the plunge, and held onto my Minolta AF gear.

 

I just moved to California, though, (the Bay Area) and things are different here than in Alaska (obviously). I almost

refuse to lug around a big bag of photo gear in the heat and the city - in fact, I detest it so much that I haven't shot

anything really "good" in the last 3 weeks that I've been here. My shooting style is going to have to change.

 

And maybe my gear should too? That's my point to these ramblings, I guess. Just trying to get some ideas out to

anyone who can give some good advice. I am a diehard film shooter, and have been shooting all slide film for the last

two years. However, now that I'm in the city, I'm thinking about trying my hand at B&W again, because I used to

love shooting Tri-X, and Plus-X. (I can develop it in the bathroom and scan on my Minolta 5400). Also, the new

Kodak Ektar 100 has me drooling about a C41 film with the grain of a slide - but the latitude of a neg.

 

So...some options I'm thinking about:

1. Get an old Minolta XD-11 (small system) again w/ an MD 35mm and 50mm and stick with SLR.

2. Contax G2 (but then its back to AF and I'm not that into it)

3. Bessa R or other Voigtlander RF? I'm thinking that might be my ticket for the money? Could I then use Leica

system in the future when I have the means?

4. Mortgage my life and get some kind of Leica. :-)

 

Pleast advise if possible...maybe I am hopeless at this point? :-)

 

Thanks,

Jed

[drjedsmith]

I was talking with a friend on the phone just now - he said to check out the old Olympus "OM" series. Anyone know how the size compares to a Leica?

 

Thanks,

Jed

[jose_guerra]

The Canon LTM cameras and their lenses are great also. Canon 7, P. etc.

[stuart_richardson]

There really are too many options to sensibly go through, especially if you are willing to consider SLR's as well. What is

your budget (for the whole system), how many lenses, what focal length, do you need a meter? Etc etc.

[mike_earussi1]

I personally love Retina IIIcs which have an excellent 50mm lens that's close to Leica in quality and can be had for under $100 on EBay.

[Bill Blackwell Images]

The Olympus OM system was designed with the Oskar Barnack philosophy, so its size, even as an SLR, is comparable to that of the Leica M system. Olympus wanted to call it the "Olympus M System" - it was only due to Leica’s objections that the product was rolled out as “OM.”

 

IMHO, this is what the Leicaflex/Leica R series cameras should have looked like.

[marc_bergman1]

"I almost refuse to lug around a big bag of photo gear in the heat and the city"

 

First thing I would do is buy a smaller photo bag. Just get one big enough for your camera, one lens, and some film.

 

You have to get into a mind set of keeping things simple. I typically like to shoot with one lens whether I am using an RF, a film SLR, or a a DSLR.

 

A fixed lens RF from the sixties would be a good start. The price would be under $100. It is not a big outlay. You could see if you like the RF experience.

[drjedsmith]

Thanks for the answers so far. Anything will help me narrow some stuff down in my head.

 

Stuart - I know what you mean. My budget is not large - especially when bringing the word Leica into the picture! Let's estimate around $1,000. Give or take.

 

Focal lengths I like are 24mm, 35mm, 85mm. I have also usually had a 50mm lens for low light (f1.4), but to be honest, I hardly ever use it. I used to think I liked telephoto...and then realized I never used it! So I think the focal lengths I like are generally compatible with both RF and SLR.

 

The reason for thinking about changing to RF in my mind is small size, and low noise. I don't mind hearing the shutter, but the AF motor, film winding motor, and mirror slap noise on the high end AF SLRs drive me crazy sometimes.

 

Hope this info allows for more thoughts from you all - sorry I did not include in the first post.

 

Thank you,

Jed

[george_shihanian]

The one camera, one lens is good advice. If you still get the urge to buy something else, in the SLR field I'd go with an Olympus, say an OM-2n and one or two lenses. Zuiko (Olympus brand name for their lenses) lenses are top notch. It is an extremely small, light system.

 

In the rangefinder arena start out with something like a Zorki-4 or one of the Voigtlander Bessas (used). You'll have the option to use the FSU (former Soviet Union) lenses, Voigtlander lenses, older Canon screwmount lenses, or when you have a few extra $$, Leica lenses. You also don't have to buy $3,000 Leica lenses. There are good used choices in the $250-$500 range in the older Leica screwmount lenses. Check here and Rangefinderforum, and cameraquest, KEH, B&H.

[dan_mcclain]

Jed,

I am in a similar situation, as I've gotten tired of my large SLRs. I recently sold most of my Nikon SLR gear and bought a Canonet QL17 and Konica S3 to try out the small 70's rangefinders, and a Nikon rangefinder to see if my enjoyment of classic Nikon gear would extend to rangefinders. So far I've come to the conclusion that the Canonet, which is built somewhat better than the Konica, will make a great every day camera to carry in a coat pocket or bookbag, and the Nikon S2 will be fun for more photo-specific trips. My recommendation to you is to buy a nice Canonet QL17 or Olympus SP and try out the rangefinder design. Be sure to get a lens hood which is either small enough to allow a mostly unobstructed rangefinder view, or a ventilated hood so that you can see through the back of the hood.

 

I also took a refurbished Rolleicord with me to Europe this past spring, and it made a lightweight medium format option, which you might consider in spite of its slow lens and somewhat dim focusing screen. On a foggy dark San Francisco day I'd definitely find the Canonet more practical.

 

I also found cameraquest . com very useful when researching rangefinders.

 

Hope this helps.

[Andrew in Austin]

I know that you have some Minolta lens - but the Olympus OM series was the most Leica-like with regards to SLRs. I'm not a big fan of shutter speed rings versus a top mounted dial - Oly glass is quite good and inexpensive - because there isn't a DSLR body to use them on.

 

The Canon P and Canon 7 make for better entry level RF cameras than the Soviet FED or Zorki cameras. All Canons are LTM compatible - so M mount glass won't be an option - but LTM lenses will fit a future M mount camera with the addition of an adapter ring.

 

The Cosina-Voigtlander Bessa R only accepts LTM glass - but at around $200 it usually is a good entry level RF body. The Bessa R2 and R3 series are all M mounts - which accept either M mount lenses or LTM lenses with an adapter ring.

[JDMvW]

I honestly thought this was a troll at first.

 

For film, you can have your cake and eat it too, as pointed out, by buying Leica copies made in the Soviet Union. Non-Soviet copies are legion because the "right" to produce German designs was made free to all the world by the Allied Commission as part of war reparations, but most are sought after by Leica collectors, so are rather pricey.

The two main Soviet "Leicas" were the FED (actually some were made before WWII), and the Zorki.

 

In the Ukrainian SSR, the Kiev factory made almost exact copies of the prewar German Contaxes. I actually prefer these to Leicas, but I like to load film from the back rather than the bottom. ;)

 

Kievs. Zorkis, and FEDs have all been "converted" into fake Contax and Leica cameras, often complete with German military markings, etc. They would only fool the naive, but are great ways to pull the chain of your neighborhood Leica collector. Nowadays these priceless gems sell on eBay and elsewhere for US$85-250.

[drjedsmith]

Alright! Thanks for the discussion, this is making some sense. I will definately try the "1 camera 1 lens" theory in the next couple days, and ditch the camera bag, big flash, etc, that I lug around all the time. I know it sounds elementry to you RF shooters, but I'm coming from a different style background here.

 

The OM series sounds intriguing for their size if I decide to stick with SLR...although I'm still dealing with mirror slap, but maybe I can live with that if it's not too severe.

 

The Leica "copies" sound interesting. Any reason to get one over the Bessa R3? I kind of like the looks of the Voigtlander, but never even held one...I will have to take a look at some of those "copies" and see. As far as lenses, who all makes M-mount compatible lenses - only Leica?

 

Thanks,

Jed

[tom_burke3]

>> As far as lenses, who all makes M-mount compatible lenses - only Leica?

 

Cosina / Voigtlander make a large range of M-mount lenses. You can also mount any of their (Leica-standard) screw-

mount lens on an M-mount camera by use of an adapter. (Actually, you can mount any manufacturer's Leica-standard

screw-mount lenses on an M with an adaptor, not just CV's.)

 

More recently there is Zeiss who produce a range of M mount lenses for the Zeiss Ikon RF camera; and of course the

Konica Hexar RF was M mount so lenes for it will also mount on an M.

 

So quite a lot of choice.....

[drjedsmith]

Trying to figure this out - I'm used to one manufacture having one lens mount, i.e. Minolta has A-mount.

 

So what is VM mount on a Voigtlander? Also, some suggested the Canons and the Voigtlander Bessa R, that take LTM glass. How does the LTM compare with the M-mount glass?

Last question for a bit, I promise - I saw a bunch of lenses on Voigtlander's website - are thos M-mount lenses? I mean, they must be less costly than Leica glass, at least used - and I could start with one of those, and then work up to Leica glass in time when I have the money.

Thanks,

Jed

[stuart_richardson]

The voigtlanders are a bit plasticy, but they work, their modern so they have very good viewfinders, TTL metering and

warranties -- all of which are good things. If you like 24, 35 and 85-90, voigtlander makes good lenses in all those focal

lengths. I would suggest the 25mm f/4, 35mm f/1.7 (if you can still find one) and the 90mm f/3.5 APO. All are very good

lenses for very good prices. Buy the 35mm first, and then fill in if you decide it is necessary. CameraQuest has mint used

Bessa R2A and R3A's for 489 -- that leaves you room for 1-2 lenses -- since you prefer wide angles, I would get the R2A --

that gives you 28mm and 35mm framelines, while the R3A only has 40mm and up. <P>Or forget all this and get an OM.

[fred_c1]

What Marc said. Go start with a Canonet GIII. http://www.netaxs.com/~cassidy/images/equipment/ql17/ql17.html

[james_lai]

An OM-1/1n/2/2n body is a bit smaller than a Leica M body, but the OM lenses are bigger than their Leica counterparts.

[steve_bellayr]

You asked two questions: 1. What a rangefinder other than Leica? 2. Something small to carry about? One camera I would go with is the Canon P. Well made good lens. The Canon 7 has the meter and chances are after 50 years it will be inaccurate therefore the P is preferable. The is the Nikon S2 which is going up in price. Its lens is sharp, also. If you can't get the original lenses go with the Cosina Voigtlander series. Now as for weight I agree that that the Olympus OM series is light weight. A good model is the OM-2 as it takes readily available batteries. The preferable lens for shooting in the street is the 35mm f/2.0 which is a little pricey. But the best bet overall is mortgage your life and get the Leica with Leica glass because eventually you will buy one and it then becomes addictive. Good luck.

[steve_bellayr]

I hate to ruin your day but right now there is a beautiful Leica M2 (M3, also) listed on this site & add a black Cosina lens it would be, dare I say, erotic.

[sfcole]

JS--Don't assume you can't afford a Leica. For one thing, it depends on which one, and what condition you're willing to

accept. There are definitely bargains out there, though not necessarily on Ebay or through dealers, although a bargain-grade

body from KEH may well be in very nice condition (I recently saw an M-4 for less than $500 on their site).

 

Also, don't assume that a Leica outfit is lighter in weight than other brands. My M2 with a 50 on it is just as heavy as my

Canon F-1 (which is, admittedly a very solid camera). These thing as are all metal, and I've found that a using a thin strap

for a few hours can get uncomfortable.

[drjedsmith]

After listening to the responses, and scouring the web...I believe I really do want to get into the M-mount. I realize I may not even be able to afford a Leica lens today, but maybe in time. I would like to set a goal and stay congruent with that vision.

 

I believe I will have to purchase either a Bessa or an old Leica body. I'm kind of leaning toward the newer Bessa because it looks like the features are nice - but I'm totally in new territory here. Any differences that I should focs on between the R2,3, or 4? Also, I noticed they come in A or M models. Does the A stand for apeture priority, and if so, can you still manual focus with the "A" model?

 

I would like to start with one lens - a fast 35mm if possible. Can anyone recommend an M-mount 35mm lens that is a good performer but won't break the bank? Brand doesn't really matter at this point.

 

Lastly, if I could score an old, bargain Leica M-mount for a beginner, should I be looking for the M2 or M3? Seems like those might be affordable on the used market.

 

Thank you so much. This discussion is making me evaluate the way I want to shoot in the future here (in a new environment) and making me do some homework.

 

Jed

[drjedsmith]

Err...sorry, I meant "can you still manual METER" with the "A" Bessa models (R2A, R3A, R4A), etc.

[Alex_Es]

Yes you can. You also get Bessas in manual.

[Alex_Es]

Yes you can. You also get Bessas in manual.