Actual Importance of Ventiation?

[john_hugens]

Greetings all, this may seem a little basic but bear with me.

 

I have a darkroom in the United States, and I've used one at my college before (I've since graduated). My home

darkroom is located in a large open basement, without finished walls, so my only ventilation would be a small room

fan blowing air away from me. At college the place was a very nice setup, I didn't notice the ventilation, but no one

complained and there were a LOT of chemicals, so I assume it had a nice ventilation setup.

 

Anyways, for the next 10 months or so, I'm working in Korea. I've got a nice little apartment but the only possible

light tight room is my bathroom. For whatever reason maintainence doesn't feel like fixing the vent. fan.

 

So, I'm faced with developing without real ventilation (I can't exactly cut holes in the walls). Conversely I can continue

to have my film developed professionally (quite cheap here, so no real complaints). I do enjoy developing myself a lot

more though.

 

Exactly how dangerous is this, I've heard of people passing out before but does HC-110, water for stop, and a basic

fixer really make THAT many problems? Alternatively what are some non-poisonous fixers I can use, if any, to

reduce the risks, if any, to my short and long-term health (I can always get rid/seal up my developer pretty fast, but

fixer I'll keep around for obvious reasons)?

 

Thanks in advance,

 

John Hugens

[chris_waller]

I have a darkroom of about 500 cu. ft. volume (9' x 7' x 8') and its only ventilation is my opening the door from time to time as I go out to wash prints. I have no problems with fumes. Black and white chemistry is really quite benign. I've spent twenty-five years sniffing around darkrooms with no apparent ill-effects so far.

[lex_jenkins]

There are dozens of thorough discussions in the archives. If you check the MSDS's and research the available data (not opinion), you'll see that there is little or no evidence to indicate that the most common darkroom chemicals are harmful when handled with reasonable caution. I've seen no hard evidence of respiratory hazards. Skin contact is a well documented hazard with some chemicals.

 

As a former occupational safety and health inspector I saw plenty of ineffectual attempts at ventilation where well documented respiratory hazards existed. Effective ventilation requires a scientific approach and, often, rather expensive installations, the efficiency of which must be tested with specialized equipment. I suspect that most of the darkroom ventilation systems installed by the average photographer are largely ineffectual, but it makes them feel better.

[john_hugens]

Thanks for your answers.

 

Lex:

 

Sorry for the redundancy of my post. I've also read about some people almost bathing in the stuff for years and there being no problem. However a photographer friend of mine recently swore up and down that'd she'd passed out from the fumes (as it's a college dark room I doubt she was doing anything but b/w). So I know it's a bit of an old debate to reopen but despite the evidence one way or the other I'm glad you could put it to rest for me. My guess is that there are extenuating circiumstances that caused my friend to pass out, not just chemicals.

[Vlad Soare]

Whether the chemicals used in B/W processing are harmful or not, that's debatable, but the comfort issue is real. When you work in a small air-tight room, the air quickly becomes warm, moist and full of carbon dioxide. The ventilation in my darkroom is certainly not what you would call "effective". I merely have a bathroom fan. But boy, what a difference in comfort does it make!

[Vlad Soare]

By the way, it's not the fixer you should be worried about. The fixer is pretty harmless. It does stink indeed, but stink has never killed anyone. <br>

And the other way around: what doesn't smell is not necessarily harmless. ;-)

[lex_jenkins]

Vlad makes a good point about carbon dioxide buildup, which can lead to dizziness, headaches and nausea. Efforts at making the typical improvised home darkroom light tight can also reduce airflow. A well designed darkroom tends to have fairly good airflow because the light tight door is baffled. To make my home darkrooms light tight I've had to tape over every crack and crevice, stuff towels under doors, etc. It's a good idea to take frequent breaks and open the door to exchange the air.

 

Also, I used a good sized HEPA recirculating air filter in my darkroom. It was designed for a much larger room but was in a utility room measuring approx. 6'x14' with a 10' ceiling. Besides controlling dust and helping my negatives and prints dry faster, the indirect air flow kept things a bit more comfortable. But it did not add fresh air, so I took breaks every half hour or so.

 

While I don't wish to seem dismissive of legitimate health concerns, there are plenty of almost embarrassingly mundane reasons for some of the "health" problems I've heard described over the years:

 

1. Dizziness/fainting: This is a typical side effect of standing in one place for too long. I got in trouble more than once in Navy boot camp laughing at the recruits who'd pass out in formation, even in cool weather. Some folks need to keep moving for good circulation. Fainting is just nature's way of restoring oxygenated blood flow to the brain pan.

 

2. Headaches: Typically due to eye strain. It's a *dark* room. Safelights are a terrible way to view the world for very long. And we spend a lot of time staring through focusing aids.

 

3. Frequent urination (I kid you not, this complaint occurs surprisingly often): We're surrounded by water and sloshing liquids, often with wet hands. Ever try the old trick of placing a sleeping sibling's or friend's hand in lukewarm water to see if it'd make them pee? It's a natural response, nothing to do with darkroom chemicals.

 

4. Anxiety: After the tenth wasted test print on a tricky negative, I get pretty testy too. But it ain't the chemicals.

 

5. Skin rash: Now this is a tricky one. Some chemicals have been proven to be skin irritants. Avoid direct contact with undiluted Rodinal concentrate, selenium toner, developers containing phenidone, and others. But a frequent cause of skin rash is sweating inside gloves. And some folks experience dermatitis from contact with certain glove material. Latex is fairly well known to be a potentially serious problem among some folks, but other materials may cause problems for a few people. Frequent hand washing to remove chemicals can also irritate the skin, so find a gentle soap.

[jpo3136b]

I'm in the business of protecting people from poison, and it's like this:

 

If you practice basic good chemical lab practices, like ventilate the room, avoid cross contamination, protect yourself

from direct contact from poisons, and other basics, you will probably be fine. Do not ever ingest, inject, or inhale

poisons. The primary avenues for absorbing poisons into the body include: the eyes, the respiratory orifices and the

skin.

 

When it comes to actually successfully managing and skillfully advising people on all of the complexities of hazardous

substances, one email or label warning is not going to cut it. There's actually a ton of information involved in fully

understanding the subject.

 

The actual, fully truthful, scientific answer would depend on many of the specific details of the physical structure of the

situation. When companies tell you to use something in a ventilated area, what they're telling you is that the substance

emits fumes, and some of those fumes are harmful. Just go ahead and ventilate.

 

That said, you need to be aware of just how harmful some stuff is. In order to get the real facts, and to know what you're

deciding about, I recommend some basic references like: the NIOSH pocket guide to chemical hazards, the US

Department of Transportations ERG (Emergency Response Guide). Both of which are available online to the public. Also, read the label

and your MSDS (material safety data sheets), they can tell you a lot of the pertinent facts about handling a chemical in a given situation,

including emergencies and first aid tips specific to that substance.

 

For example, some darkroom chemicals, like hydroquinone, are poisonous (IDLH)(Immediate Danger to Life and Health)

when the exposure levels exceed a mere 5 milligrams within 15 minutes. Others have unusual properties, like silver

nitrate, which can cause permanent blindness if only a tiny amount of that salt gets in your eyes.

 

Now, you're going to have to use some basic judgement and common sense in order to work things out.

 

There have been thousands of people who have successfully done all this, every day, without injury or fear just because they followed

some simple good lab practices. Proceed with confidence. Just ventilate the room and use common sense.

[brucecahn]

If you spend little time in the darkroom there is not a serious problem. If you are there several hours a day or more without ventilation, for an extended period of time, you are being slowly poisoned. It can lead to irritibility and depression. So if you are beginning to feel not so good, stay out of the darkroom for a while.

[jpo3136b]

Now, if you're doing stuff in there that wouldn't pass inspection in a high school chemistry lab, you're probably screwing up.

The more times you mess up, the more likely you'll be to have an accident. The more accidents you have, the more likely

you'll be to having one that could cause injury.

 

Listen to Lex. He's giving you some good advice.

 

I apologize for my wordiness. I get motivated sometimes. Good luck. J.

[john_hugens]

haha, well I'll give the Maintenance Dept. another month and then go try and raise a little cain. Until then I won't go about setting up a home darkroom. It would be good to have SOME basic ventilation.

[lowell_huff1]

Clayton Chemical makes odorless chemicals, fixer and stop bath.

[big toys are better]

So long as you work from liquid concentrates, you will suffer fewer problems. The highest risks from toxicity come from dust since the chemicals will be quite concentrated, and thus mixing a powered developer is especially problematic in close quarters. If you use HC-110, Rodinal or other developers that come as liquid concentrates you will minimize your risks, and the same goes for fixers, etc. The rest of the issue has to do with cleanliness since dried chemicals can be toxic if they then become airborne, and you should also avoid contact with the liquids when handling film or paper. Some of the older paper developers were particularly toxic, and I think that included the Amidol based developers which are still available from the Formulary.

[john_hugens]

That's good advice Hofland. Thanks.

 

Lowell: Are Clayton Chemical's films non-toxic, or just odorless? plenty of things don't smell bad, but are quite bad!

[jpo3136b]

Can you just light tight the other doors and windows in the apartment? I have worked in bathroom darkrooms with the door

open, but in an arrangement where I could cut down on all the light from the other rooms.

 

Surprisingly, a black bedsheet folded in half and bungee-corded around the moulding of most residential windows actually

works out fine, particularly if it's dark outside already.

 

That way, you wouldn't have one small room to contend with; you could get some diffusion throughout the whole apartment.

Probably a good idea to get that fan fixed, though, anyway. J.

[lex_jenkins]

Odor is seldom a reliable indicator of toxicity or lack thereof. However some folks are very sensitive to odors and may feel physically ill from unpleasant odors. So low odor chemicals do serve a valid purpose, if only to make the darkroom experience more pleasant.

[bobmichaels]

John: you made reference to "developing" and "HC-110" but never said anything about printing.

 

If you are just developing film, why not load it into a daylight tank, then turn on the lights, open the door, and open the windows?

 

And in the event you are also printing, why not use a rotary tube so you can turn on the lights, open door, windows?

 

While it may not provide much internet discourse fodder, this really is a simple problem to just avoid.

[john_hugens]

Bob: yes, for now I'll be developing. I'd love to print but as used enlargers don't seem to be going up for sale much in Korea, I'll have to put that on hold for now.

 

Lex: That's what I figured, but I'm not sensitive to odor so it's not a big deal. Death and poison don't always have a calling card it seems (okay so that was cheesy)

 

John: Unfortunately my apartment has one huge set of windows not just normal residential size windows. I'd have to cover an are about 12 feet by 8 feet high in order to seal off the main room of my apt. I'd need a pretty darn big sheet (not to mention there's no actual window frame with edges to loop stuff around so I'd have to velcro it to the walls or something.

 

Best,

 

-John Hugens

[aplumpton]

Lex and others have given some very good information and advice. Thanks! My two small Doran light-tight grills (louvres) at either end of

my small darkroom allow a modest change of air to help diminish the smell. Better still, I recently found a small used

exhauster fan (squirrel cage type) which I hope to install with a flexible air tube (our uninhabited attic overhead will be the

recipient of the fumes).

 

 

I am told that the best way to extract fumes is by pulling them off to the back of the developing tray sink (or area) such that the fumes are

not pulled directly over the worker. Instead, fresher air is pulled over the worker and this carries the fumes to the end of the extractor tube

or hooding and out of the work space.

 

 

Intended use of some toning and bleaching chemicals makes the extractor fan project more pressing than it has been to date.

[craig_shearman1]

If you're smart enough to set up a darkroom and develop film I'd say there's a very good chance you are smart enough to fix the bathroom fan in your new darkroom. South Korea is a pretty sophisticated modern country and I'm sure they have the equivalent if not of Home Depot of at least the local hardware store. Buying a new fan and replacing the old one shouldn't be any more difficult than here in the States. A half-hour job at most, even if you haven't done it before. I've worked in many darkrooms, from bathrooms to professional newspaper darkrooms, some with ventilation and some without, with no problems. Unless you're going to be in there eight hours a day, five days a week I would think opening the door as you come in and out will be fine.

[nathancraver]

I have noticed that D-76 does not taste quite as good as HC-110... just kidding. Anyway, I use a small bathroom with the fan on and the A/C on constantly while using my little darkroom, and as long as I open the doors when I don't need darkness, it's not bad at all. My bathroom is only about 6' by 12' and ventilation is decent without any modifications, just common sense.