Worst "I want a Pro, but don't want to pay" listing I've seen in a while

[phyrpowr]

If this guy already has a stable of "student photogs, perfectly capable" what was he advertising for to start with?

[thomas_hardy1]

Olmissouri.com will EASILY get someone who has the right skills, experience, and equipment to do this "job". Not for

the fifty bucks, but just for the privilege of being on the SIDELINE.

 

Ever see those articles in the photo mags on how to

shoot sports? Of course most people don't have a snowball's chance of getting on the sideline of big-time sports events

so they suggest that you shoot the little leagues or minor college conference games to gain experience and they do offer

some excitement.

 

 

I have a business partner who travels from Tennessee to almost all of the Oklahoma University football games. The guy

has been out of college for almost 15 years. If he had the skills to pull off the photography would he do it?

 

Heck yeah! Many people would.

[john schroeder]

This is how he responded to my email. <br><br>

Hi John,

 

Thanks for showing me the nice message board. I love the comments. Now perhaps I shouldn't have put in a

"professional" photographer. But in any event I have already received plenty of interest in the position who are

good shooters. My original photographer who I was working on the book died this summer and we were going to split

the profits. I certain don't think that's being cheap when I could paid $2000 to get the photos. Because I am

still spliting the profits with her widower even though her content will make up a 1/4 of the book. Paying

someone $500 per game would be far from beneficial for me since I would be losing profits since I had already

done the job. But if you know how to shot their isn't much of a difference from one photog than another when it

comes to shooting sports like football. Getting the right shot comes down to being in the right place at the

right time, time in terms of hitting the shutter and just pure luck. I spent seven years in television and shot

many football games and know sometimes you get the big plays and other times you blow. The bottom line is I

challenge you to show me a photographer that does better work for $500 than my student photographers at Mizzou

can do for $50 per game. I would love to pay someone more, but the money is there right now, bottom line. And if

I couldn't get anyone good to shoot for $50 I would raise the praise. People can say all they want, but I'll have

the last laugh. But they shooter will get their photos in a book which I don't these people complaining can say.

Plus, i could fly round trip from St. Louis to Austin, get a hotel room for the night, and shoot the game myself

for about $550 so why would I pay someone else $500 to drive a couple miles stand on the field and point, focus,

and shoot. It does not make sense. Plus, the photog does keep the rights after the book is published so if they

do things right, they could make some money off the photos. Good luck getting that for a newspaper outlet or AP,

or any other wire service. Once again, thanks for your response.

Darin Wernig <br><br>

 

The best part...<br>

"Getting the right shot comes down to being in the right place at the right time, time in terms of hitting the

shutter and just pure luck. I spent seven years in television and shot many football games and know sometimes you

get the big plays and other times you blow. The bottom line is I challenge you to show me a photographer that

does better work for $500 than my student photographers at Mizzou can do for $50 per game."<br><br>

 

All I have to say is WOW!<br>

Who is up for a challenge?

[photobiscuits]

I'm beginning to think this guy moonlights as editor for Nigerian scam emails.<br>

This is a very interesting discussion which has opened my eyes and has made me think twice about some of my opinions regarding wedding photographers.

[thomas_hardy1]

"This is a very interesting discussion which has opened my eyes and has made me think twice about some of my opinions

regarding wedding photographers."

 

@ Mike

 

Care to share those opinions and how they've now changed. I'm not a wedding photographer (-;

[joseph_wisniewski]

"Joseph, I have to laugh a little with your statement."

 

That's OK Ralph, I laughed at yours first.

 

"I think you miss the point a little."

 

You are mistaken, sir.

 

"A professional is getting paid for his work (even while he is enjoying it)"

 

If you are a photographer that normally does not get sideline access to a sporting event, then for this particular job, you are getting paid, in currency beyond measure.

 

"and making a profit, while a mark (an amateur) is shooting for fun."

 

In other words, as soon as you start making a profit at weddings, you can never shoot another landscape unless someone is also willing to pay for it. Once you start doing product work, you can't take any more shots of a school play.

 

Does your wife pay you to take pictures of your children?

[robertshults]

"Getting the right shot comes down to being in the right place at the right time, time in terms of hitting the shutter and

just pure luck. I spent seven years in television and shot many football games and know sometimes you get the big

plays and other times you blow. The bottom line is I challenge you to show me a photographer that does better work for

$500 than my student photographers at Mizzou can do for $50 per game."

 

Well, these sites would be a good place to start:

 

http://www.donaldmiralle.com/#a=0&at=0&mi=2&pt=1&pi=10000&s=0&p=2

http://www.billfrakes.com/index2.php

http://www.bobmartin.com/bob1.html

 

But, first, perhaps one should have a look at the photos on olmissouri.com. This year's photo gallery:

 

http://www.olmissouri.com/index.php?option=com_phocagallery&view=categories

 

A photo essay on Mizzou's recently renovated practice facility:

 

http://www.olmissouri.com/photo_gallery/facility_gallery_1-10-07.html

 

And, my personal favorite, brief pre-game coverage of the cotton bowl:

 

http://www.olmissouri.com/123007_cotton_bowl_photos.html

[joshroot]

Not real good photos on the almighty Olmissouri.com.

 

I guess that's what $50 buys you.

[robertshults]

Just sent him the links above. I wait with baited breath.

 

Plus, @ Thomas, I have no doubt the Mr. Wernig will find SOMEONE to do this "job", but I sincerely doubt he will find

"someone who has the right skills, experience, and equipment".

[john schroeder]

I am not a professional photographer. I do not earn my living taking pictures, rather, I earn my living selling cameras. My joy and passion is photography. I try (not always successfully) to produce the best art I can with the skills I have developed over the years. I freely admit that I know nothing about photographing football, or any sporting event for that matter. I would not shoot this guy's games for a mere $50.00. I invested more than $50.00 in the monopod I would bring to such a shoot. I am confident I could produce better photographs than he is displaying on his website.

[dangoldman]

"So what do I gain by spending $5000. ------ I makes zero sense.---------- Plus, I alreadt received responses

from more than competent people for are willing to cover the game."

 

From the response to Jay B. Stevens. Anyone else pick up on this little jewel of a slip? "I make zero sense",

priceless.

[robertshults]

Mr. Wernig responded:

 

"Hi Robert,

 

Thanks for the links. I checked them over and all them to take good shots. However, their football shoots still aren't any better than what

I am already getting so far from my student photographers. The only one that stands out is Donald Miralle's shot of Chad Johnson

catching a touchdown pass with him trying to keep his feet inbounds. But shots like those are complete luck. When I was in TV and

shot football games I always stay in the corner too to get a nice rainbown pass on the fade in the corner. I guarantee you it would take

years to duplicate that same shot if ever. If the shutter closes in lets say 1/10 of a second before of after, you wouldn't get the same

shot. As for the other photos, using shadows on a football field look good, but there is nothing special about that. On Bill Frakes site,

there is a picture of a Colts player leaping in the air at Dan Marino. The shot was mediocre. The positioning was off. You're looking at the

defenders ass.

 

If you were standing were Marino is looking at, that would be an awsome shot as Marino would be looking at you and then see the

defender the left diving in mid air. But once again, that all comes down to luck and being at the right place at the right time. I would love

to put my two student photogs in a competition shooting football games with these guys. My guys would do just well. I would send them

to the game, but once again, I'm trying to cut down on costs. After all, it's not like I'm raking in the dough with this project. Once again

thanks, for the links and good luck. I'm done discussing this situation unless they are actually interested in working the game and live in

Austin. If people think they're worth more they shouldn't worry about it as I'm sure a really high paying gig is right around the corner.

 

Darin Wernig"

 

How on earth does this guy make a living as a journalist?

[stembaughphotography]

He knows how to sling Bull Sh**

[robertshults]

I got to thinkin', "Maybe this is some sort of elaborate Nigerian scam."

 

So...I Googled the email address listed on the CL posting, and discovered something interesting. Apparently, $50.00 is this

guy's concept of a professional rate, since the Columbia, MO Craigslist posting specifically requests a student

photographer, and offers only $40.00 per game. That gig also requires travel to several "nearby" road games:

 

http://columbiamo.craigslist.org/med/757431723.html

[brianbridgers]

I loved reading about this column! I am relatively new to the profession, and I have done fair and unfair deals. Most of what I

have learned has been self-taught or learned through somewhat relentless searching and learning on my behalf. I have had

the extreme benefit of working for a company fresh out of school (with a Graphic Design degree, not Photography) that was

very fair and extremely forthcoming with the going rates. Most of what I do, however, would probably be construed as a rip-off

in your worlds. The handful of local companies that I've dealt with like that either had no real understanding of the

photographer's world, or were stingy. Another huge obstacle is a lack of resource for going rates for the appropriate type of job

(i.e. macro, product, portrait, figure, and the occasional wedding).

I live in a medium-sized Midwestern city where consistent opportunity for good/fun photo employment is increasingly scarce. I

have an exhibit (my first) that is currently being shown in a classy, real-deal art gallery in a popular district. I'm proud of it, but

it's no gold mine. It basically pays for itself and a couple tanks of gas here and there.

I guess what I'm trying to say is I am searching exhaustibly for direction. Should I just forget this place and move to Chicago

or New York? I am single with no kids.

It would be great if there was a source of information on the going rates for the appropriate jobs. If anybody knows anything,

I would greatly appreciate it!

[robertshults]

Brian,

 

A good place to start might be Dan Heller's photography business pages and blog:

 

http://www.danheller.com/bizfaq.html

 

http://danheller.blogspot.com/

 

Many good "small business management for artists" books exist. I have "Photographers Market Guide to Building Your

Photography Business" (http://www.amazon.com/Photographers-Market-Building-Photography-Business/dp/1582972648)

and it is okay...perhaps others have some recommendations.

 

Remember, what you charge is a personal expression of your perceived value to the client. If you charge little or nothing,

the client will feel you are worth little or nothing. Obviously, you must avoid pricing yourself out of the market, but you

must also assert your valuable position within that market.

[fullmetalphotograper]

In other words, as soon as you start making a profit at weddings, you can never shoot another landscape unless someone is

also willing to pay for it. Once you start doing product work, you can't take any more shots of a school play.

 

To answer questions Joseph Wisniewski, I don't do landscapes, I have not shot a landscape in 20 years My skill set is not up

to shooting landscape or nature. I would not punish the viewers with my attempts at nature. My skill is people, photojournalism,

sports, portraits, commercial art and glamour. People me are far easier to shoot, and more peaceful and relaxing than nature.

No wife, no kids, but I have lost track of how many plays and grads I shot working community newspapers for over 10 years.

Today my rate for a school play would be $300 an hour for the pain and suffering of shooting.

 

I will be the first to say I have been lucky. I have people through my career paying me to something I love. Yes, I shoot for

myself, but I support my art through the patronage of others.

 

Joseph, what I have learned is exploitation is exploitation. To say it is not exploitation because the mark does not realize that

he is being exploited or because he had fun doing it is wrong.

 

To be blunt I have no issue with an amateur photographer shooting at an event. I do not view an amateur photographer under

cutting my prices as a threat or as someone stealing bread from my table. Darin Wernig will never pay the market value,

because he has no respect for the photographer or his art. He has no issue with exploiting an amateur photographer.

 

The one the hardest lessons for any amateur photographer out there to learn is one of the most simplest. If you do not respect

the value of you own work no one else will. I will give a very simple example, I know a lot photographers make a Faustian just

to receive a photo credit with a photograph that is run in a publication, about half the time they don't get the credit mainly

because they are view as valueless.<div></div>

[robertshults]

Oh, come on, Ralph. That's not impressive. I mean, all you had to do was "drive a couple miles stand on the field and

point, focus, and shoot."

[thomas_hardy1]

I think he WILL find someone to do a very good job of it. As he said the football shots are NOT any better than the link

provided.

[joshroot]

The best advice I ever got as a young professional was:

 

"You can't eat photo credit and your landlord won't take it as payment for rent"

[brianbridgers]

Thanks all for your insightful thoughts! I have to say I have realized for a while now that credits don't fill the belly.

[michael_edwards12]

If this fellow who can't spell thinks it's so easy, let him do it himself, we could all pitch in and get him a fifty-dollar camera. Of course he probably doesn't realize that to publish a glossy book with detail he'll have to shoot in RAW and actually "process" the photos himself. As for the audio stuff, he won't get a Nagra for that, with a parabolic mic, he'll get a Sony PCM-50 and with his free hand he can shoot the game and record it too.

 

Ralph, good posts, I love it. Josh, I love a good laugh. It is interesting how this guy wants someone to virtually pay to work for him, twice.

 

-Mike Edwards, The Phrog of Santa Barbara

[thomas_hardy1]

All an amateur has to do to learn sports photography is go here... (-;

 

 

http://www.photo.net/learn/sports/overview?p=2

[joseph_wisniewski]

And Ralph settled the whole issue "Today my rate for a school play would be $300 an hour for the pain and suffering of shooting."

 

In short, if one charges more for a shoot because there is "pain and suffering", then there is nothing wrong with finding someone who will charge less for a shoot because there is enjoyment. There are no "marks" and there is no "exploitation".

 

Thank you for concluding this discussion so succinctly, Ralph. You did with one sentence what I couldn't do in paragraphs.

[cooltpmd]

As an outsider and professional (but not in photography) ... this is getting alot of play, but isn't uncommon. Every employer wants your soul for as little as they can purchase it ... every employee wants a 6/7-figure job with minimal effort.

 

This guy is producing a "book" ... it has a limited audience, it is apparently no issue to have snap-shot quality work, and he'll probably make $1-10,000 in the whole life of that project (honestly, many authors make $.25/copy sold. He is asking for snapshots for $50 + access to a game. He'd love for Ansel Adams to accept this deal, but is OK for "Fred" from sociology to do it.

 

I know this cuts into "professional " work, but the smart-aleks here that want $1500 for 1 game are equally as deluted from the opposite end. Most people here at PN could better this guys IQ, from what I've seen. But as someone who has bought school pictures, sports team pictures, family portraits, etc... the cost is prohibitive for many people ... frankly, that's why olan mills, and Wal-mart are making a fortune. They are willing to do a competent job for a price accessible to their audience.

 

Keep asking for $300/hr plus licesing rights ... but know that you'll be bypassed by most people who aren't selling the photos for a mega-profit ... or who will accept a competent result for less.

 

That's my assessment of the digital advancement: Nothing replaces a professional for result quality, but technology is making it easier to achieve competence.