Flash on bracket : center or off-center ?

[jean_marc_liotier]

I'm addicted to flash bounce, but sometimes there is no ceiling... So I have to improve my direct flash

technique. My experience shows that bounce cards and diffusers only have a limited effect - and it seems that a

bracket might be what I need. But which bracket ? Obviously the rotating ones are better, and of course build

quality is an issue - but those questions are well debated everywhere. The more interesting question is : where

should I put the flash ?

 

Some people seem to believe that unless you can achieve an almost equilateral separation there is no significant

modeling effect obtained by having the flash off-center. They argue that having the flash centered reduces

unwanted shadows. Others seem to like the results brought by an off-center flash. I am a bit confused. I guess

I'll have to experiment, but considering the price of a bracket, I would welcome your advice...

 

And then, how far is optimal. I guess it depends on distance to the subject. But some brackets put the flash

close to the camera (I don't quite understand what the point is - unless you want flat lighting and probably lens

shadow...), others put at the end of an unpractically long arm, and the there is anything in between. I was

spontaneously looking for the long arms, but maybe there is something I missed...

 

So - where on a bracket do you like to put your flash and how does it influence your lighting ?

[michaelseto]

Jean-Marc, I shoot a lot of events and use three brackets, two Stroboframes and the Custom Bracket Jr. I always

bounce indoors and generally use Honl's reflector; I find it better than anything out there.

 

As far as placement, I like centered over the lens, though the CB Jr is off to the side on landscapes and over

the lens for portrait work. I prefer a bit higher off the camera and centered to reduce shadows if there's a

wall behind the person. The problem with high off the lens is the cumbersome nature of your gear - it's big and

clumsy - try hanging a large SLR with a Stroboframe off you neck while grappling for your second camera and

you'll know what I mean.

 

As well, I prefer rotating, which is why I use the Strobos - one is the Camera Rotating version which I like

since the flash stays in a consistent place and you don't have to fiddle with readjusting the bounce.

 

The CB is close to the lens - which I mainly use for outdoor fill. Indoors I use the Honl bounce card if there's

no ceiling to bounce off of.

 

Bottom line is it's a matter of personal pref. Good luck.

[picturesque]

You will have to analyze where you want the flash shadow, when it appears. This same analysis resulted in my putting my flash right next to the lens, totally against the mainstream idea of putting the flash higher and to one side. About the only time I use my flash direct is outside for fill, so I reasoned that when doing so, I want the smallest shadow possible, if it shows. That's why I put the flash close to the lens. I use a Custom Bracket Mini RC which I further modified so that the flash pivots and can easily be taken off the bracket to be used in my hand.

 

When I can't use wall or ceiling bounce (where flash placement doesn't much matter), I bounce off a white card, and bend the bracket pivot so the flash with card is somewhat centered over the lens. It has a little height because the tilted flash head adds some inches, or I use the flash in my hand for directional light.

 

I used to use a Custom Bracket QRS-EV, that rotated the camera, and I still like the bracket, but was frustrated that the flash gets to be high up and centered, causing seen shadows to be long and fall directly behind the subjects--quite unattractive when seen (like against walls). Even a flash put directly in the hotshoe creates ugly shadows, if seen. Plus, I like to carry two cameras at once, and the bracket is big and heavy (not normally a problem for me). So far, I like this latest set up.

[Ed_Ingold]

If the flash is centered and directly above the lens most shadows will be hidden behind the subject. Objects above or in front of the subject, like a bouquet, will project a shadow, but this is not usually objectionable. You will not get a significant amount of modeling unless the key light is removed 45 to 60 degrees (or more) from the axis of the lens. You will not get a significant amount of diffusion unless the reflector or diffuser is used at a distance from the subject equal to its diagonal (or diameter).

[twmeyer]

I use a bracket that lets me shift the position of the head to either side of the camera (actually an arc across

the top of it in horizontal camera position. In vertical orientation I am limited to top and right of the lens as

I hold the camera by the bracket left handed, with the camera's grip toward the bottom of the frame). This lets

me do as Nadine says... position the light relative to the situation. Full disclosure: I like shadows. <p>This

bracket also lets me remove the light from the camera via a quick release and hold it at arms length (where ever

I can pretzel myself into reaching) this comes in handy when I have to feather the light across large groups or

if there is a wall or ceiling that can be used as an additional light source. The bracket is a modified Quantum

QR bracket... t

[twmeyer]

regarding "significant diffusion", this is a 9"round reflector (covered with a single layer of white diffusion), hand held just outside of this uncropped frame high and left of the camera... t<div></div>

[peter_j2]

Nadine: Can you please post a photo showing your modified Custom Bracket Mini RC with the pivoting assembly? Thanks.

[Ed_Ingold]

Tom,

 

You did not get much diffusion with a 9" reflector, regardless of the covering. The modeling and lighting is very good, but notice that the edges of the shadows are very sharp. I'm not saying this is bad, just that it is not diffuse.

[jean_marc_liotier]

Thank you for the answer. So if I understand well, the choice of flash positioning on the bracket boils down to were you want the shadows to be. I guess that this calls for some experimenting on my own. So some pivoting bracket is on my shopping list, with an arm long enough that allows various positions on or off axis...

[picturesque]

Peter, here it is. Image A is what it looks like for direct flash (for fill outdoors, with or without off camera lights). I would leave it like this for horizontal or vertical images. The resulting shadows are very skinny, if seen at all. I don't worry about red eye in these situations since irises are small outdoors.

 

Image B shows how it pivots. I use the pivot for indoor bouncing and/or using the flash 'converted' to a softbox. I used parts from an old Siegelite bracket. Was reminded about this when I saw Joe Demb's flash bracket, but his puts the flash too high in relation to the lens for what I wanted.

 

Image C shows a close up of the cobbled parts from the Siegelite bracket.

 

Image D shows Joe Demb's Demb Diffuser converted into a softbox--I added a larger foam piece behind. I would use this if there was nothing to bounce off--like outside at night with no ceiling or walls. Otherwise, I bounce as per the Demb Diffuser instructions, or just use plain bounce, swiveling the head around. This is how I took these pictures.

 

Image E shows another stolen piece from my Siegelite bracket system. It is a light stick that I carry on my shoulder bag. I can place the flash in it real fast and extend it. It also shows the flash off the bracket. I can hold it in my hand, placing it in the crook of my arm in between shots. I just added the ST-E2 so I don't have to deal with the Off Camera Shoe Cord, which broke recently, plus I can grab the flash real fast to go hand held.<div></div>

[twmeyer]

whoa! Nadine that is waaaay c-c-c-c-cool! <p>That swivel looks kinda like a piece I use from Lumedyne, their swivel adapter. Is it a friction positioning swivel or are there per-determined stops? Which model Siegelite did that come from?... t

[picturesque]

Hey Tom. The pivot is friction with no stops. These came from two really old brackets from the 80s that I had. The light stick too, which was supposed to be an extender for the bracket. I thought they were no longer made, but apparently, they are. See the photo in the following post.

 

http://www.photo.net/nature-photography-forum/00PfQH

 

Then follow the link to Adorama. However, you can find them used on ebay from time to time.

 

Do we get to see your cobbled bracket, too?

[picturesque]

Hmm...except you can't find it at Adorama... I guess used, then.

[picturesque]

Forgot to mention, you CAN create somewhat directional light using the pivot, on the photographer's right side, where one can't easily hand hold, since the right hand holds the camera and pushes the shutter button. With the light stick, you can use the arm crossover technique with the left hand and arm.

 

And, in case anyone missed it, the base bracket is a Custom Bracket Mini-RC.

[twmeyer]

Yeah I'm familiar with the cross over arm technique :^). The stick is still available and Lastolite is making one

for their little EZ box that telescopes. I went to Adorama but couldn't find anything like the Siegelite swivel.

I'll attach a few pics of my Franken-bracket... t<div></div>

[twmeyer]

and the Jiant Joe Demb Bounce... t<div></div>

[twmeyer]

Me with the Franken-Flash, vertical. And the top swivel lets the head tilt back for bounce in this orientation... t<div></div>

[twmeyer]

and the handle comes off with a button under it's base... t <p>(Yes, it's heavy. But it's also 400ws in that fanny pack)<div></div>

[peter_j2]

Nadine and Tom: Wow! Thank you so much for the excellent tutorials.

 

Nadine: Yours' is the closest to what I would consider a tight and light setup for my 5D, ST-E2 and 580EX II.

Why do you have black tape over the front of your Speedlite's red LED? What is the wire for on the Speedlite

for? What is the looped green wire (or string) on your ST-E2 for?

 

Tom: Is that an ebay purchased diffusion sock? It looks like white coloured cling wrap. Or is it a Lumidyne

accessory?

[jean_marc_liotier]

Tom's styrene sheet supersized Demb Flip-it looks sweet... I just happen to have the Demb Flip-it in my bag and looking at it with a piece of paper, A4 size looks perfectly reasonable and A3 size might even be workable. It has to be very light though because the swivel of the Flip-it won't hold much weight. Styrene sheets are definitely on my shopping list for the next run to the hardware store. And with a piece a velcro, some epoxy glue and some stronger swivel you could build your own giant flipping reflector from scratch, for even less money - but then be even more careful with how much weight you load that poor Canon hot-shoe with.

 

Tom's one handed camera operation with flash in the other hand looks nice in theory, but whenever direct flash light is a problem I am most probably dragging the shutter to soak up whatever ambient lighting there is - so a steady hand is required and I don't know how to achieve that one handed. I could do that when using fill flash in daylight at higher speeds, but then direct flash light is not really a problem and flash on the hot-shoe works fine enough although it might be even better with a bracket.

[picturesque]

Peter--I have black tape over the 580EX LED because with the ST-E2, I'm running it as a slave, and in that mode, the red LED flashes once a second or something, and it is annoying. So it doesn't hurt to tape it over. If I use the flash as master, I'll remove the tape--it is just gaffer tape.

 

The wire on the flash goes from the PC sync port I had put into the flash to my el cheapo ebay wireless transmitter. I just happened to get the ones that work well, and with NiMH batteries. They are no longer available. The transmitter is very small and it is sitting on the back of the flash head attached with velcro. The band around the ST-E2 is actually girls' hair bands. I have it there because sometimes, I have the wireless transmitter attached to the ST-E2 that way. Thank goodness for rubber bands and velcro.

 

Tom--the pivot thing is salvaged off the Siegelite bracket. I also added an L bracket I salvaged off another Smith Victor adapter. I've accumulated tons of brackets and stuff over the years, so I salvage and cannibalize stuff to make other stuff. Very cool bracket you have.

 

Jean-Marc--you might try googling Chuck Gardner's diffuser. You can make the card out of those craft store Foamies material, which weighs next to nothing. You can add rigidity by using that plastic grid material used for crafts as well. It is written about in the Chuck Gardner diffuser. Or, I use the folds in the diffuser to add rigidity. Mine can be folded to block the upward flash or let it go by.

 

The thing I like about my set up is that it doesn't weight a ton. With the flash off the bracket and in one hand, I can hold the camera with one hand just fine. When dragging the shutter with flash, you don't need that steady a hand since the flash duration freezes the subject at lest. Also, try turning your body and using one shoulder to prop the camera on.

 

Note--flash on the hotshoe is still too tall for me in horizontal mode when I just want fill. The shadows made are still substantial compared to my skinny shadows with my set up. Same with the vertical orientation.

[twmeyer]

the diffuser in that shot is an older elasticized one that is of an unknown make. I retired that one before the edges wore out and have another I got from Tallyns (called <a href="http://www.tallyns.com/tpp/amazing/items.asp?CartID=%7B75EVERESTE029D4-6A41-47B3-B6F3-CAC4EAFDE3E8%7D&Tp=%tPStatus1&CC=lightsox">LightSox</a>). It is ripstop and uses a draw string and doesn't fit as snug...t

[jean_marc_liotier]

<p>The <a href="http://super.nova.org/DPR/DIY01/">Chuck Gardner diffuser</a> looks like a Lumiquest Big Bounce - I tried it and did not like it very much. I much prefer the control offered by the swivel on Demb Flip-it type devices.</p>

<p>Flash as low shutter speeds does freeze the subject - if the ambient light is negligible. With enough ambient light, an unsteady hand adds some perceptible fuzziness.</p>

<p>Since no one mentioned them, take a look at this <a href="http://www.juergenspecht.com/truestories/1/2/">helmet mounted flash and reflector</a>. I once saw one with two flashes mounted on the helmet with arms to set them as far appart as practically possible, and a ST-E2 to trigger them... At least with that sort of contraption you don't need much effort to make the subject take an amused expression...</p>

[picturesque]

Jean-Marc--I suggested the Chuck Gardner thing because it uses the foamies material and plastic grid, which weight next to nothing. You don't have to make your diffuser into a baseball mitt shape. You can make a flat panel with a pocket that will fit over your Demb Diffuser. I've made one. It works fine.

[les]

I second the Chuck Gardner's thing: I have made two bounce reflectors using the exact materials specified - and the

setup is very light - and works :)

 

Did I mention that it was cheap ?