M645 proTL or Pentax 645?

[bill_force]

<p>I have 7 35mm film cameras but would like to try a larger format.<br>

I know there are about 6 different incarnations of the M645 but know little of the Pentax 645.  Are there any glaring inequities I should look out for?<br>

I would like to draw on your experience to determine which is the better built and possibly trouble free M-format to eventually scan to digital files.  I already have an Epson 4990 photo scanner and it's OK for 35mm but not the best.  I will start out with just one "normal" lens and go from there, I have NO objections to full manual operation, in fact prefer it.   I used a 4 X 5 Speed Graphic for 8 years in the service so full manual is the norm for me, in fact I end up manual focusing most of my automatic DSLR's anyway.</p>

[kelly_hughes]

<p>If you have 7 35mm cameras, why are you limiting yourself to only ONE medium format?  ;)</p>

<p>I have the Pentax 645n.  Started with a regular 645, then bought the 645n for AF possibilities and focus confirmation with manual focus lenses.  I ended up with a second body, due to buying an eBay auction that contained a relatively rare lens.  I got the body and two lenses for what the lens alone was worth.</p>

<p>The build quality of the Pentaxes are good.   I don't really have any reviews bookmarked, but here's a link to a thread where they compared the 645 to the 645n.  http://www.photo.net/medium-format-photography-forum/000pP5</p>

<p>Both families have good reps here, I'm sure you'll be pleased either way you go.</p>

[mjferron]

<p>I've owed both in the past and in the end recieved similar (read fine) results from these systems. Both are made of a rather hard plastic and neither impressed me with ultimate quality like a Hassy might. Both are noisy but the Pentax mirror has a much lighter touch. Then again it needs to as mirror lock up is not available as it is on the Mamiya.</p>

[kelly_hughes]

<p>I knew the mirror lock up myth would come up for Pentax. I almost said something to stave it off.<br>

I suppose by the fact that mirror lock up got included on the 645nII, people assumed it was needed on the 645 and 645n and somehow overlooked or skimped out (of a professional level camera?). The 645 series has dampeners that reduce the shock of the mirror slap, and therefore it wasn't needed on the first two generations.  It actually wasn't needed on the 645nII either, but I believe that many people (users included) didn't really fully understand that it wasn't necessary, and Pentax added it to the 645nII to pacify public opinion. Or perhaps there was some really obscure situation where it was actually needed, and this test didn't examine it well enough.<br>

In any case, here's the link to the test: <a href="http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/645-mlu.shtml">645-MLU</a><br>

-Kelly</p>

[dougmiles]

<p>I cannot advise which system to get. Surely your own research will reveal your preferred features and such. But I've been happy enough with my Pentax 645NII to get a second body, and this is a fast handling rig. Good luck, and welcome back to a more substantial format!</p>

[dave_parry]

<p>I seriously considered both the pentax and the mamiya 645 systems, mainly for landscape work but also a bit of

travel and climbing shots. In fact I considered all medium format systems and it came down to these two. Not quite

a toss-up but nearly.</p>

<p>I liked the fact the pentax cameras have a side tripod mount (i shoot vertical a lot) and all have inbu

ilt metering. However there was just something that put me off about each model, which basically meant i could

rule-out the whole range. I didn't like the idea of push-buttons on the original model for changing shutter speeds,

seemed a bit too much like a cheap 35mm SLR and i wanted a more manual feel. The 645n has the 16-frame fi

lm flatness thing, and then the 645Nii model looks about right but is way more expensive and I'd have been paying f

or a lot of camera that I don't necessarily need, i.e. AF, grip etc. The non-removable grip means extra weight and

bulk I didn't need (although data imprinting would have been niec). Plus no interchangeable backs. And where I live

(the UK) they are far less available on the used market than mamiya, and more expensive for both lens

es and bodies.</p>

<p>The Mamiya Pro (or Pro-TL) gives me everything i need for occaisonal&

nbsp;handholdability and metering, and the whole system was very cheap, as are the lenses. The interchange

able back issue is something that wasn't a dealbreaker for me before I bought, but now I've got 2 backs I wouldn't go

back (pun). Mirror lock is always good to have, if only for peace of mind. You can change the prisms but i've got a

metering prism and can't see myself buying another one, although the ability to take the prism off and look at th

e ground glass with both eyes can be useful for checking landscape compostition (things often look different when y

ou use both eyes) and for checking right to the edge of the frame. The build quality is good, but not too heavy. Vast

availablity on the used market, and dirt cheap. The only pisser is having to use the drop-slot for landscape shots, but gi

ven the whole thing is relatively light its not the issue i thought it would be, I use a light m

anfrotto 190 and a 386RC2 head no problems.</p>

<p>As I shoot mainly landscapes at f/16 or 22, the

issue of lens performance between the two systems

isn't worth worrying about, i've certainly not got any complaints.</p>

<p>If i'd have gone with pentax

645Nii I'm sure I'd be happy now (t

[joe_bockenstette]

<p>I have a Pentax 645.  Had it stollen and couldn't wait to replace it.  The lack of mirror lockup is not a problem for me.  If I want to copy something that would require a mirror lockup I would use me 35mm or my Mamiya RB67.  The lack of auto focus is not a problem either as sometimes we take a quick shot and want the focus elswhere from where the auto system wants it.  You say that having a totaly manual camera is just fine, and I agree sometimes under certain conditions, however for quick shots I like the auto exposure control of the Pentax 645.  The best part is that the older version of the Pentax 645 without the AF system will cost you less.  After reading several posts, I decided that the AF system used, if it is not the Cannon type of ultrasonic, is not very good.  I much prefer to focus the lens myself.  Usually gives me just a little extra time to compose and center the shot.  Isn't this a great format.  Thanks to the film manufactures that 120 and 220 is still available!!!  Like Mr. Miles said "Welcome back to a more substantial format!"</p>

[Ed_Ingold]

<p>I find interchangeable backs an indispensible function. You have an instant choice of film type or digital back. The Mamiya (other than the "E" model)  has this feature, the Pentax does not.</p>

[philip_wilson]

<p>I chose the mamiya as it is cheaper to buy (especially lenses) and has interchangable backs. While the Mamiya has a mirror lock up you can only really use it in manual so exposure values are only at the whole stop level.  The ubiquity and price of the Mamiya were the big advantages to me. If I was looking at the Pentax I would also consider the Contax 645 - this is more expensive but is a great camera.  Less common cameras can be a problem to work with - I know as i have a Fuji GX680</p>

[lex_harris]

<p>"I seriously considered both the pentax and the mamiya 645 systems, mainly for landscape work but also a bit of travel and climbing shots. In fact I considered all medium format systems and it came down to these two. Not quite a toss-up but nearly."<br>

Dave, I'm interested to know why Hasselblad didn't make it to your short list. Like Bill I'm a 35mm user thinking of moving to medium format and struggling with all the choices out there. My main interest is landscape and in particular wilderness so weight and size are issues since I have to carry the gear long distances in a backpack. Being a longtime 35mm user I'm kind of used to the flexibility and features you get with 35mm so I'm drawn to Mamiya 645, Pentax 645 etc for this reason but the Hasselblad V series has its virtues too and I'm finding it very hard to decide. If nothing else Hasselblad offers both 6x4.5 and 6x6 in a relatively light and compact system, and I'm wondering if I'll find 645 limiting later on.<br>

I'd be most interested in your feedback in a travel/climbing context.</p>

[lex_harris]

<p>Sorry, posted same message twice in error, just deleting second copy...</p>

[nealcurrie]

<p>I own the Pentax 645 and 5 lenses for it, and I really enjoy it. The increase in quality from 35mm is enourmous (see http://www.nealcurrie.com/t-comp0.html for examples), and you start getting diminishing returns when you go to 6x7, for a considerably larger camera. People often think it's a video camera though, which always amuses me.</p>

[dave_parry]

<p>In response to Lex Harris (great name by the way!):<br>

"Dave, I'm interested to know why Hasselblad didn't make it to your short list."<br /><br />I did breifly look at them (theres a recent thread I posted on recently running down all my options, including rolleis etc), but even going with a very old body and old lenses it was still out of the price range for me. In contrast I got a mamiya made this century, and a brand new normal lens, last of the new stock on clearance. I like the 645 shape so wasn't sold on the idea of having to shoot square and get fewer shots per roll, and have to cart around a heavier body with heavier leafshuttered lenses with larger image circles for no reason, except to not have to tilt the body for veritcals. Plus I had (and still have) my eye on getting a hartblei tilt lens in the future, which meant focal plane shutter bodies like mamiya, contax and pentax.<br>

Same with the contax, great system and no-doubt great optics but its comes down to pricepoint - its a better system but is it 5x as good as the mamiya (especially if i do get a tilt lens i'll even have the same glass), cos thats the price difference.<br>

To put it into perspective, my initial mamiya kit (645 Pro-TL, brand new 80mm 2.8, mint 45mm 2.8, 150mm 3.5 C, N metered prism, all with 6-12 months guarantee) cost about 500 quid. The equivalent setup in hasselblad would have probably cost me in the region of 1300 quid (old body and lenses, everything about 40 years older than the mamiya), and the contax 2700 beans. For me this is a no brainer, i just don't have that kinda cheddar to throw around, and a camera I can afford gets me infinitely better photos than a camera I can't.<br>

Should I ever have a burning desire to use hasselblad glass in the future there are adaptors available for the mamiya, though I doubt I'd bother.</p>

[kelly_hughes]

<p>This one cracked me up:<br /> "If I was looking at the Pentax I would also consider the Contax 645 - this is more expensive but is a great camera."<br>

<br /> At first glance, I thought you were saying this, translated into dollars: "If you're shopping between two cameras in the $300 to $500 range, you should also consider a $10,000 one too."<br>

<br /> But I looked them up, and seems the price has dropped to around $2500 for Contax 645. Not as laughable as a couple of years back, but you can still get five of the Penxtax 645n's for the price of one Contax.<br>

-Kelly</p>

[philip_wilson]

<p>Kelly</p>

<p>Before you are so rude you should do some homework. the Contax 645 body is available from KEH in EX condition for $616 right now (it never cost more than $2500 so I do not know where you shop). Since the Pentax body ranges from $172 to $900 on KEH for EX condition it does not appear to be as unreasonable as you make out. Even if we add a prism and a back to the Contax we are still under $1000 which is the approximate price of an NII. Similarly the standard lens price is not too disimilar KEH has the Pentax 75mm F2.8 EX condition for $159, compared to $199 for the Contax 80mm F2. If you want I will take the trade of five Pentax 645n bodies or lenses for a single Contax. Maybe you are in Europe and thus are unaware of US used camera prices. However, before you make these kind of remarks in such an ignorant manner get your facts correct. David Parry was polite and his use of the word quid suggest he is in the UK where the Pentax to Contax price differentials may be quite different.<br>

I am aware that a</p>

<p> </p>

[lex_harris]

<p>In reply to Dave Parry:</p>

<p>Dave, thanks for the very useful comments. I found your other thread by the way, just the sort of information I'm looking for. <br>

My MF research also suggests that one of the M645 incarnations might be the best solution for me. Right now I have an opportunity to pick up an M645 s1000 kit with 45mm C f2.8s, 70mm C f2.8 and 150mm C f3.5 and PD prism S for about AUD 500. A newer system would be great but from what I see on eBay etc a similar Pro or Pro TL kit is going to cost 2-3 times that for not much more functionality. The M645 s1000 is old but then my 25 year old Canon F-1 kit has never let me down and is still going strong. Decisions, decisions.... </p>

 

[bill_force]

<p>I'm going to throw another fly in the ointment and also ask if there are any glaring inequities in the Bronica ETRS, the body in particular? In actuality all three other stated 6 X 41/2's are about the same price used so I guess it boils down to build quality.</p>

[dave_parry]

<p>I recently had a play with a full ETRS kit and to me it seemed very clunky, old fashioned and not intuative to use, strangely placed controls, nothing labelled, the metering finder display was poor, backs fiddley to swap (they work the opposite to mamiya, i.e. the metal flange you seat the lip into first is at the top, i.e. under the finder so you can't see it), the whole thing was heavy and the lenses seemed huge due to the shutters, and fiddly to use with aperture rings at the front of the lens. I've no idea how good the lenses are, but I assume theyre alright. Eagle-eyed readers may have detected an undertone of me not liking the Bronica in this post. I'm sure its perfectly possible to get great photos out of them, and will suit some people, but put it this way I felt hugley vindicated for buying the mamiya. If you need every lens leaf shuttered in a 645 setup then its clearly the way to go though.</p>

[philip_wilson]

<p>I would avoid the Bronica - I did as the handling was not great and the design feels very dated. As i said in my first post it is hard to go wrong with the Mamiya and there are plenty of good ones around. I have had two bodies for several years and have had no issues - one is a 645 Pro, the other a 645 Pro TL. If you do need leaf shutter lenses they can be hard to find used so this is probaly the only drawback. As I suggested earlier if you want to be braver take a look at the Contax - it is a complex beast but the lenses are superb. I have little experience of the pentax but it appears to be a reasonable camera - I prefer the Mamiya for price reasons and removable backs. I think your options are Mamiya for price and reliability or Contax for AF and sophistication. Having used the Contax and played with the Pentax I find the Contax to be the better (albeit more expensive) camera. For me the Contax has much better AF, better viewfinder coverage (the Pentax is about 90 - 92%) and much better lenses. While I have not owned one I have been a Cointax G2 owner for many years and have been very happy with the build quality and lenses for that camera. As I stated earlier I went with Mamiya and more recently have added a Fuji GX680 for lens quality and lens movement. I do not recommend the Fuji unless you are very dedicated - it is a remarkable camera but it's size and complexity limits it's use.</p>