History of photography - Nazi researchers at the 'roof of the world'

[JDMvW]

There have been a few television shows on PBS and the History Channel about the

SS Ahnenerbe. This was the Ancestral Heritage branch of applied anthropology in

the Race Science context of the Third Reich.

 

Even if you don't read German, you may find a photograph collection from the

work of this group interesting from Der Spiegel magazine at

 

 

http://einestages.spiegel.de/external/ShowTopicAlbumBackground/a1843/l0/l0/F.html#featuredEntry

[clive1]

Fascinating photos of a Tibet long gone.

[frans_waterlander]

Chilling! Particularly if you think about why the Germans were so interested in Tibet, to find the source of the "pure" Arian race. The photo of Himmler and Heydrich particularly sends shivers down my spine.

[iliafarniev]

The Tibet has always been a place of many geo-political and in lesser degree a cultural and antropological interests of UK, Germany, France, China, India, Russia and Japan. The Arian stuff is just a coverstory which has been an universaly popular ideology of western world at the time. There is an interesting film "7 years in Tibet" fetuting Brad Pit and the book is mentioned there.

 

Thanks for the link. Interesting pictures.

[kristina_kraft]

Very interesting documentary photos. Having one more insight in this ideology makes me wonder what they accomplished in the end.

 

"Seven years in Tibet" is very unusual movie, showing a much sensibility.

 

Those who seek, they will seek no more. My quote.

[JDMvW]

If Indiana Jones had existed (and there's a lot of debate among archaeologists on who might have been the model), these are the guys he would have run up against. The measurement of noses, etc. shown in some of the pictures were more or less standard anthropometry of the times, but perverted into Rassenwissenschaft (race science).

 

The classic work on the subject is still

 

Michael H, Kater, 1974, Das >>Ahnenerbe<< der SS 1935-1945. Deutsche Verlags-Anstalt Stuttgart.

 

There is an English language book that leans rather heavily on Kater's work, but I can't place my hands (or mind) on the reference right now and a quick Google for once didn't pop up the book for sale.

[vic_.]

Kristina Vidanec: <i>"Very interesting documentary photos. Having one more insight in this ideology makes me wonder what they accomplished in the end."</i>

<p>Are you kidding? Their ideology is everywhere. Just look around. The way immigrants and Gypsies are treated in Europe. The way Spanish immigrants are treated in the US. The way Guatemalan and Honduran immigrants are treated in Mexico. Examples abound.

<p>They have won. In fact they didn't need to have a war, for this ideology is prevalent in most societies. This notion of superiority. That the life of one race is worth more than the life of another race. Very Christian don't you think. These people go to church on Sundays. Christ would be horrified.

<p>At least they laid it out for everyone to see. The rest of the world does it covertly. You can see it in glances that people get if they are in the wrong neighborhood, if they are the wrong kind of people.

<p>What they accomplished is to provide everyone with someone to look down upon, while they do the same acts with a clean conscience. Don't forget, the US army was segregated in WW2. It wasn't all milk and honey and Kumbayah.

[david brown]

Come on Vic the Nazi did.nt acheive that it has been around as long as man kind.

Serb

Croat

English

Romans

Greeks

Terks

Muslim

Christian

Any power hungry politician can create this moron mentality.

[kelly_flanigan1]

One can take fire ants from the backyard and place them on a mound/nest in the front yard and they will fight to the death; ripping their legs and heads off. They are the same species; but the "other" group is 100 feet away; thus the enemy.

[peter_hovmand]

Interesting subject. One more reason Nazism is one of the biggest subjects in the science of history. And subjects in this category are still very much a part of our lives. Especially in the so called clash of civilizations we are witnessing these days: The Islamic world not really wanting to be a part of the modern world. They want a confrontation. And they got it. That is the way of the world. Read Carl Schmitt ...

[iliafarniev]

"The classic work on the subject is still

 

Michael H, Kater, 1974, Das >>Ahnenerbe<< der SS 1935-1945. Deutsche Verlags-Anstalt Stuttgart."

 

I would like to ask Mr. von Weinberg, assuming he knows the book, for the short r鳵m鮠What actually Nazi scientists have concluded in their study?

[Allen Herbert]

will fight to the death; ripping their legs and heads off. They are the same species; but the "other" group is 100 feet away; thus the enemy.

 

Recently, in merry old England, a girl was murdered by a couple of youths for dressing as a Goth....a simple fashion statement. In recent history countless folk have been murdered because they are a bit different...or. perhaps they were not...but so what. As a species we are very happy to suck on the cream of the world while we watch others dying on TV.

 

Out there in space it is highly likely (although we believe we are unique and are God's chosen for some indefinable reason) there are other life forms. You can't help thinking they would rather pass on the idea of meeting with such a pleasant lot.

 

Off course we all know we are a superior life form than an ant. Hey, we are aware of our actions.

[Allen Herbert]

Of course the majority of Nazi's were caring family folk just like us.

 

Sort of makes you think.

[JDMvW]

Most of the Rassenwissenschaften and the work of the SS Ahnenerbe was, as I think our own Bob, put it, pure "carp". Their standards of research were pseudoscientific, in that the conclusion was formed and the research done to "support" it. The essence of their whole ideology was the counter-reaction to the Enlightenment and the principles that led to modern science. They believed that 'faith' and belief determined what happened. Hence the name of the film "Triumph of the Will". Like the post-modernists (some of whom actually were Nazis in WWII) they had no basis for determining fact from whatever you made up.

[vic_.]

JDM von Weinberg: <i>Most of the Rassenwissenschaften and the work of the SS Ahnenerbe was, as I think our own Bob, put it, pure "carp". Their standards of research were pseudoscientific, in that the conclusion was formed and the research done to "support" it.</i>

<p>If you look at the way beauty is measured by society today, they apply similar standards of measurement as in pictures #4 and #5. So, in essence, what the Nazis were doing was just an academic and scientific codification of what humans actually believe. For us to mock them might make us feel good, but we do the same thing subconsciously.

[vic_.]

If you boil Nazism to its essence, what they did was show us all our shadow side; what we keep hidden in our minds, but actually think about others. Nothing has really changed in the last 60+ years.

 

In Israel, the land where such things should be anathema, the Ashkenazi jews (migrated from Western Europe) consider themselves to be a higher form of life than the Sephardic jews (migrated from Spain/Portugal via North Africa). There was a crisis recently because for the first time the Sephardics were going to rule the country, snatching power away from the Euro-Ashkenazis, who have dominated the politics of that country. Is this any different?

[iliafarniev]

So, Vic, do you think Nazi were doing pionearing works opening up our minds in this case?

 

"If you look at the way beauty is measured by society today..." what society are you talking about? I never heart of society measuring noses to detemine beauty today.

[vic_.]

Ilia, Certainly not! The Nazis are a despicable bunch, with faux science.

 

I don't know where you live, but here in the United States, particularly around New York and Los Angeles, visual "nose measurement" and other criteria are applied subconsciously, and not by using measuring tools. Plastic surgery is de riguer amongst certain circles, especially in Orange County, CA.

 

A friend told me about a woman on his operating table, who was having breast implant surgery for the third time, and she was only 22 years old! He parents were paying for it. She wasn't happy with the three previous sets of perfect breasts (one God-given and two via a surgeon).

 

People have rhinoplasty (nose jobs) all the time, it is one of the most common surgeries. That's what I was alluding to in my posting. The nose profile of certain Teutonic tribes is considered the perfect nose by some. They are not satisfied that God made them the way they are and that they should therefore be happy to be in the body that they were gifted.

 

Is there something wrong with all this?

 

Regards,

Vic

[Norma Desmond]

Vic--

 

I think you have to be careful about arguments asserting moral equivalence and

arguments that have as their foundation the slippery slope.

 

Some slopes are not THAT slippery.

 

For instance, the slope we are all on with prejudices and biases does not mean, as you

wrongly assert, that "in essence, what the Nazis were doing was just an academic and

scientific codification of what humans actually believe." Don't shortchange humans. We're

NOT all really Nazis at heart, though we do have our shortcomings.

[pnital]

Vic

 

"in essence, what the Nazis were doing was just an academic and scientific codification of what humans actually believe."

 

I don't know where you live but I live in Israel. we have our problems,but what the Nazi Regim did was far from " academic"...It was unhuman cruel, systematic extermination, some members of my family survived the hell of Auschwitz!" academic"?

 

Part of what you see in the photos, and I saw albums that were found lately, YES, they were loving family members... exterminating during the day, and loving and photographing their wonderful social and family life after that...

 

There is a lot to say, but I don't find PN the right place, Just to let you know that what Israel accomplished in its 60 years, taking in immigrants from so many different cultures, languages, countries, and giving them a home. Yes we have our problems, but the analogy of relations in our country when talking about the Nazi Regim..... Sorry, it is too painful to read.

[Allen Herbert]

We are a strange lot. Recently I was part of a three lane motorway where vehicles travelling in excess of 70mph came to a grinding halt to let a duck waddle across....

 

And then on the other side of coin....

 

Interesting photos of past times regardless of the twisted and truly depraved who took them.

[iliafarniev]

Hey Vic, I see folks getting atcha.

 

Well, thanks a lot for interesting info about rhinoplasty. Didn't know good american people went so far ahead sence I have been there last time.

 

I live in Denmark, just up north from Germany. Here we do not hear anything about nose jobes. Only little about female parts and the most uset to think it is a joke.

 

But noses are interesting and I have been thinking. That's that I got:

 

1. The young german man measuring on tibetan ladys nose on the picture does not have particular large nose himself, while they both do smile like they know one better.

 

2. There is one famous photo by August Sander, very important german photographer active in times before WWII titled "Unemployed man" as far as I remember, depicting poor man standing on the corner. A sheer bum. He has a very large nose. Sander has produced many portraites of contemorary german people from different social classes but no one seems to have nose as large as that bum.

 

3. Traveling in todays Germany one does not get impression folks has particular large or beautyful noses in average.

 

4. Traveling in India one often see particular kind of people called Sidhu who often are persons with impressivly large nose as well as their whole body frames are imressively beautyful and harmonious, holly one says. If you take time to communicate with them properly you develope impression they are not particular intelligent but very strong in feith. They dont work, dont have any property and usually live on alms given by wemen. Common local folks treat them with strange emotional mixture of fear, arrogance, condescendence and denyal partly because of their believed power to heal people and animal stock among many other unusual manifestations.

 

4. Traveling North Afrika and Aravia one meet many real big noses whose owners nothing but extremally wisious and stupid. It gets better as one moves close to Iran area.

 

5. In China, Japan, Tailand and thereabout one can meet lots of very sophysticated folks with basically no nose to mention, so to say.

 

Well, no offence ment.

 

I think all humans are basically of same capacity given same education and medical care over soficient time. Variations are minor and enviromental. I think we all need better education and personal development in order to achiev harmony and good cooperation between all kinds.

 

Take care.

[vic_.]

Hi Ilya, As you can see, it is not easy to discuss this subject as it is very emotional for a lot of people, which it should be, as they lost loved ones. It is hard to talk without offending someone, and it appears that my words have done so, so I'm sorry to those who read them the way I didn't intend them to be read. It's just that we can talk all we want, but the world is not becoming a better place for a lot of people. What have we learned from the Holocaust? Apparently nothing.

 

The world has a long way to go. Until the life of the poorest child in the poorest country is considered to be the same as that of the richest child in the richest country, we have work to do.

 

As for Denmark, I now understand your perspective. There was a major news story here a while ago, where they said the Danes were the happiest people in the world. I guess they don't need nose jobs to be happy there!

 

Best Regards!

[Norma Desmond]

Vic--

 

I wasn't being emotional. On the contrary, I was engaging you intellectually. You, however,

by calling "emotional" those who recognize the indefensibility of your position, are being

patronizing.

 

You say you didn't intend your words to be read the way they were read.

 

How did you intend us to read "If you boil Nazism to its essence, what they did was show

us all our shadow side; what we keep hidden in our minds, but actually think about

others."?

 

Many historians would disagree with your conclusion that the lessons taught the world as

a result of Nazism was its essence. Many would consider any lessons learned quite

secondary to the more essential idea of a master race and those essential ovens in which a

people were systematically exterminated.

 

Am I misunderstanding your intent when I take you to be saying that the essence of

Nazism is this supposed dark side all humans share? Yep, those Nazis, they did have a

dark side, didn't they?

 

Vic, there are degrees of evil and you haven't shown that you recognize that. You, in fact,

haven't learned much from the holocaust. The holocaust is not as typical of humanity as

you think. It was rather extraordinary, which is to make somewhat of an understatement,

but I wouldn't want to get too emotional for you.

[pnital]

Fred

 

I think that any human being that know what the holocaust really was in the human history of WWII( and I'm sure you well know),hard to relate to it intellectually.

 

Dr.Mengele "scientific" experiments using human being as "gini pigs"(I'm not sure the spelling of gini is right),as one example of many, unhuman, unbelievable,hard to grasp,to what extent the essence of evil was practiced!

 

With all the atrocities in our glob, it was the most oiled system plan, built especially for extermination.The "pure"! evil of racism.

 

Every human being has to feel emotionally disturbed.