Come on, people! If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the oven!

[rachelfoster]

<rant on>

 

 

I've spoken (via email) to a number of PN members who offer critique and are

blasted in return for their efforts. No one really likes to hear that their

work is flawed, even if we know it. BUT?.only by being open to hearing what?s

wrong with our work will we grow as photographers.

 

People who take the time to point out what they see as flaws --- whether they

are right or wrong UNLESS IT?S DONE WITH MALICE ? are doing the photographer in

question a favor. They are taking the time to point out what they think could

improve a photo. WHETHER RIGHT OR WRONG their effort should be appreciated and

taken in the spirit the criticism is offered.

 

However, as sated above, I?ve talked to more than a few members who?ve offered

suggestions and been blown out of the water for their efforts. Mind you, I?m

talking about good-faith constructive criticism.

 

I personally know of two PN members, members whom I valued, who got fed up and

left PN due to such response. What a shame.

 

If you don?t want to know how your photo could be improved, don?t ask for

critique! Or, at least, if you want praise only, say so.

 

 

</rant off>

[rachelfoster]

My punctuation marks somehow got messed up when Word was pasted here. Sorry all!

[stevenlifson]

When I post a picture, I would love to get something, other than numbers. I would find constructive criticism very helpful in developing my eye and technique.

[ambers-photos]

thats is the reason i am here im just a beginner and i know my work is not up to par but thats why you take classes talk to people who know more than you and be inspired by others. some people let there passion get away from them and maybe others dont see what you were trying to capture and thats ok iv not been on PN long but have learned so much thank you all for sharing your work and knowledge

[iqbal]

As saying goes, good friends are those who confer constructive criticisms. Simple and plain praises (that I see in more than 95% cases of photo comments in PN) are nauseatic.

[cycler48]

Rachel ... I agree with everything you said and I've been retaliated against myself. This may

be why critiques seem so few and far between anymore. Personally, I got tired of the ratings

game and began to post photos for critique only. Unfortunately, responses were zero over a

few days of doing this. I no longer post photos, but still enjoy looking at and learning from

the works of other members.

[rachelfoster]

I post for critique only now, myself. Mark, do you have a website? I'll be happy to look at your work. Mind you, I'm a bare beginner and have little expertise, but I'd be happy to offer what I can.

[joshroot]

Quite frankly, this is the biggest problem facing critique/ratings on photo.net. People act like little children when someone tells them that their image isn't as good as they think it is. After taking this kind of abuse a few times, people just give up on trying to help.

 

To be honest, childish behavior is at the root of every problem with the ratings/critique system. People want to blame photo.net for the problems, but we're just trying to solve the issues that the cheaters, revenge raters, buddy rating packs, and those blasting sincere critiques, cause the site.

[rachelfoster]

Well, for my part: criticize me! In detail! But constructively please. And tell me what I do right when I get something right. If I just praise, I'll ask my kids what they think of my images.

[stp]

Josh, three of the four issues you cited deal with ratings. Please consider eliminating ratings

entirely, allow critiques only, and allow the photographer to delete critiques if he/she is really

on an ego trip and doesn't want negative comments. That may tend to reduce retaliatory

comments. At the same time, it would enhance the number of comments for those who post

who really want comments (which are, by far, the most useful kind of feedback).

[joshroot]

<i>"Josh, three of the four issues you cited deal with ratings."</i>

<p>

Yes, I know. The two paragraphs in my previous post are statements on different aspects of the issue. That doesn't change the fact that childish responses to honest critique are pathetic and cause good users to stop contributing. Leaving me to listen to everyone else complain.

<p>

Ratings are staggeringly popular with our users. I seriously doubt they are going anywhere.

[neild]

Perhaps a 3 week trial of what Stephen says - ratings can be returned if people insist (keep them on disk but just make them invisible so that all can go back as it was if needed). If things improve, then perhaps you can leave them off for good.

[mendel_leisk]

Rachel, for the Word punctuation issues, consider something like Textpad. Great little British program, that doesn't allow you type any special characters that will cause problems, but does offer a massive batch of features. Much handier and intuitive than the MS bloatware, worth looking into.

[rachelfoster]

Yes, that was frustrating! Maybe wordpad, too. Thanks.

[ifti]

To do what you believe is the right thing is not always received with open arms and one should be willing to accept some ?flack? Once I listened to a judge speak to our group and he said, ? I annoy 50% of the people irrespective of my fairness?. <P> I agree that one word C&C are strictly an ego supplementation and some cases justified but have little educational value. If you believe in doing a detailed C&C stick with it and accept that some people don?t care to hear anything other than ?Wonderful?. <P> I for one, whenever I do a C&C I also rate that picture at that time. I point out the strengths and flaws of picture and suggestion to improve to the extent of my knowledge. My frustration is not having a feed back on my C&C. Best regards ifti

[cycler48]

Rachel ... A while back, I directly asked a member to take a look at my work and give

honest critiques and he did exactly that. I was thrilled to hear the good and the bad from

him and it helped me to realize some of the things I was doing wrong. His critical

assessment meant a lot to me as I have a lot of respect for his work. As for the ratings I

was receiving, I was quite happy with what I was seeing, but with no comments, they

didn't mean a whole lot. I could only assume I was doing something right, but exactly

what was it I was doing right? Also, getting comments like "nice capture" were of no help.

I'm with you ---- tell me what you like or don't like about my photos, or tell me how it

affects you on an emotional level ... does it make you happy or sad? Is the subject

presented in an interesting way or is it boring? I see no point in posting photos and not

getting feedback.

 

Yes, I do have a personal site. There is a link to it on my PN bio page. Several of the

photos there are ones I had posted here, but there are also many that I put on my site just

for the fun of it. You know the kind ... ones that I have a personal interest in, but others

wouldn't have an interest in.

[beauh44]

I don't believe I've ever rated a photo here at PN. To me, it's sort of like rating an album

(CD/recording) - something I may love, others may hate and vice-versa. So, purely from

my personal standpoint, it was always a part of PN in which I just never participated.

 

I'm my own worst critic and always find fault with my own work and see plenty of things I

could've done had I to do it over again... but 99 percent of the time, we don't get a do-

over unless it's a static shot we could re-create to try the suggestions. Most photographs

are of a moment in time that we'll never get to repeat.

 

More often than not, I'll read a post by someone blasting the #$%@ out of someone when

the person doing the blasting hasn't posted a single photograph, link or any photograph

here at all. So how would I know whether that person knows which end of the camera to

point where? I don't. In those instances, I can see someone getting upset with a "drive-by"

troll rating here on PN.

 

There are some amazing photographers here - absolutely mind-blowing, in fact. If I see

someone doing something that I can't figure out, or would love their input, or just to ask a

question, I'd just write 'em and ask. But as another poster in this thread points out, a set

of numbers doesn't say much and the person doing the "saying" might have very different

tastes and thus their opinions and criticisms would be, to me, irrelevant.

 

To dredge up the music analogy again, that's like a rock guitar player telling a jazz player

he or she sucks. Maybe that jazz player just doesn't get off on Black Sabbath.

 

Lastly, there's a comment above: "Simple and plain praises (that I see in more than 95%

cases of photo comments in PN) are nauseatic." Well, first off, I believe the word's

"nauseated" and second, I understand up to a point but I'll look at a couple hundred

photos here sometimes. As with everything most of them aren't very good, a handful are,

and a very small handful are amazing. If the photos aren't good or just average, I don't

leave a comment at all. If it's one that bowls me over, I very well may leave "simple and

plain praise" because I have nothing else to offer and I certainly mean well and want the

photographer to know I liked his or her work. That's all. I imagine not everyone has the

time or inclination to bang out long-winded analysis and suggestions and imho, there's

nothing wrong with a "good job!" now and then.

[rachelfoster]

Mark, you are simply wrong. I love the F-troop shots (if those were the ones you were referring to).

 

The B&Ws are breathtaking, by the way.

[rachelfoster]

Beau...."there's nothing wrong with a "good job!" now and then." I did just that. I have no constructive criticism to offer Mark. But if I did, I'd like to know it would be received in the spirit it was offered.

 

To all:

AS LONG AS IT'S MADE IN GOOD FAITH, I say we should be grateful someone tried to help whether right or wrong. My only point.

[samn]

A little sugar makes the medicine go down, so the saying goes. If we post the positives of an image as well as the negatives, the latter will be received better.

 

I've been flamed several times on critiques, in fact I quit critiquing for a long time over it. Maybe that taught me something as well, to be more diplomatic and less abrupt. I haven't been flamed since learning to be a little more tactful.

[zane1664879013]

Notepad++ is a dandy text editor, and free:

 

http://notepad-plus.sourceforge.net/

[cycler48]

"To all: AS LONG AS IT'S MADE IN GOOD FAITH, I say we should be grateful someone tried

to help whether right or wrong. My only point"

 

Rachel ... I agree 100%. As long as the comments are in good faith. One of the problems

with the internet is that a certain percentage of people act in ways they wouldn't do in a

face-to-face situation for fear of being knocked on their a$$. It brings to mind an online

role playing game I was involved in about 11 years ago. I could not believe the level of

rudeness and the number of mean spirited people who were participating in that

community. PN is extremely mild in comparison, but there are still some people whose

sole purpose in life seems to be to do what they can to make someone else as miserable as

they are. I guess the bottom line is that it's easy to be a jerk when there isn't a price to

pay for it. Oh Hell ... I think I might be ranting. My meds must be wearing off.

[rachelfoster]

Thank you all for your comments. We're adults and we share a passion. Or we should if we're here, yes?

 

Sadly, this has been addressed many times before. For example, http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00HztT.

[rachelfoster]

Ummm..I meant "stay out of the kitchen!"

 

Mixed metaphors again.....sigh.

[jgalyon]

Rachel,

 

Thanks for asking me to weigh in on this one. For me it is one of the great mysteries of life that people will make the effort to ask for critique/comments on their photographs...and then explode in flames when they get what they ask for. This behavior is arrogant, ignorant, and as Josh pointed out...childish.

 

I agree with everything you've said...but have to add that while I think that it is truly unfortunate that we've lost valuable members of the community because they did nothing more than try to help someone...I think it's just as unfortunate that these members chose to allow themselves to be "run off". We all live in town, cities, villages, communities. Do we simply move to another town because two or three people out of thousands are offensive toward us? Why not just avoid these people and find a group of nice people to be friends with :)

 

I won't go into the full story (as I've related it numerous times in the past year), but one of the greatest learning experiences I've had as a photographer began when a guy's critique of one of my photographs consisted of his telling me that it "looked like sh-t". After talking with the man for a short time...which began by my asking why he felt my photo looked like "sh-t", I found that he wasn't trying to be offensive...but his only intent was to "jolt" me into reality. The short story is that it caused me to be more objective about my work, and it gave me an opportunity to decide which was more important...telling the guy where he could stick his critique, or learning and growing in my photography.

 

I'm not suggesting that we follow this gentleman's approach to critique, but the point is that even what might be seen as rude and tactless "critique" can be useful. So if it's possible to look over the offensive approach and gain something from someone telling you your photographs look like "sh-t", what's the big problem some people have with someone in a very respectful and appropriate manner...telling you that your photograph might need some improvement? I doubt that many of the people who react so negatively to constructive criticism will ever become accomplished photographers. More than anything...such reactions tells me that these people are "unteachable". As with most things, there's far too much to be learned about photography to think one can learn it without the help of others.

 

Stephen - I think your suggestion to eliminate ratings overlooks the fact that vast numbers of the membership enjoy ratings. The problem is not ratings and the problem is not critiques. The problem is with childish individuals abusing these two options. To eliminate either is simply throwing out the baby with the bath water. It solves nothing and creates other problems.

 

Beau - you wrote,

"If the photos aren't good or just average, I don't leave a comment at all".

Like most of us, I have a tendency to spend more time looking at and critiquing photographs that appeal to me. Yet I feel an obligation to spend the time to leave comments/critiques with photographs that aren't so good...that are at best, average. If you think about it...who benefits most from our input ...the beginner who knows next to nothing about the craft, or someone who produces photographs that "bowl us over"? I realize that everyone doesn't have the time or inclination to write lengthy comments, and I agree that this isn't always necessary. Like you, I'm fine with a short..."great photograph!". I don't see short comments as necessarily being the result of laziness as some do. While it can be nothing but laziness...it may just be lack of time. It seems to be in short supply for most of us these days! :) But something to consider. If you have the time to look through a "couple of hundred" photographs at a setting...how about looking at a hundred...and using the remaining time to give some time and energy to helping someone who needs it and would be most appreciative of it!