K-75, Kodachrome 75th Anniversary in 2010

[randrew1]

I've been discussing this for over a year on Photo.net. (I think Dan Bayer has

been at this a bit longer.) The first Kodachrome product (movie film) was

launched in 1935. How many products can you think of that have been around

since then? There were Chevrolet's and Motorola radios, but most of the

products that you can buy at your favorite big box store had not yet been

conceived. Kodachrome was the first integral tri-pack color film. From day

one, the product has been known for striking color, excellent sharpness, fine

grain, and superb image stability.

 

Kodachrome appears to be on its last legs. Only the 64 speed film remains and

only Dwaynes offers processing to the public. How much longer can this last?

I'm betting that film and processing will still be available in 2010. Why wait

for the funeral to deliver the eulogy? We should celebrate this product while

it is still around. There is no better way to celebrate the product than to

use it and share the results. I started a modest web page where I plan to

collect links to collections of Kodachrome images

(http://ronald.andrews.googlepages.com/kodachrome). This effort is very modest

compared to Dan Bayer's Kodachromeproject.com. I plan to add articles about

the history and technology to the products. I'm sure there are other good

ideas for a K-75 celebration. I'd like to see them.

 

Maybe, just maybe, we can spur enough business to keep the film and process

around a bit longer.

[DB_Gallery]

Amen to that! ( I got your email Ron ) I have been at it since 2004 when I first thought of

it.

 

I think it is incredible that this film is still around, even if it only 36 exposure rolls of 64.

So to let it die out silently seems the polar opposite of what this film's last days should be

about.

 

And really, who know how long it will be around. If Kodak is smart, they will allow people

to celebrate one of their truly landmark products.

 

Kodachrome is more than a film, it is a way of seeing light, texture and form.

 

Kodachrome is truly a remarkable era.

[colin_hibbard2]

Good idea...I've just emailed a friend to bring me back some Kodachrome from the States.

 

Seems that Kodak has pulled right out of Canada in terms of film sales. There is currently a big void with securing a distributor. Even getting the new Portra line ha not happened.

 

~hibbs

[randall_pukalo]

How about a Kodachrome film group on Flickr? For those who have not used it, Flickr is a cool photo sharing site, with interesting discussion groups like "I Shoot Film", "Olympus XA Users Group", "National Parks", "Lighthouses", etc. You can post both questions, and images. I used to ask here at PN what a particular film was like - now I just do an image search at Flickr. Images are so much better than words for things like that!

Here is a link for any interested:

click on "pool" (top left corner of screen) to see the images in the group.

[randall_pukalo]

What do you know - A Kodachrome users group already exists on Flickr:

discuss/

[walter_degroot]

sounds good and when kodachome is history-only

we can all look back and say how good it was.

 

but kodak will not decide the future of kodachrome or any other film or film itself on it's merits. they will make a decicion based on economics.

Film, from what i read and i am not an indutry insider, is the cash cow that keeps kodak going.

 

Kodak management may decide that digital and other products can keep the company going and simply drop film production.

or just make a few c-41 films and market disposable camrras,

 

the people that make these decisions are never real people.

but those who decide that change is required.

there is appeal to change for changes sake.

it well can be totally wrong, it can be almost a suicide -type thing for a company. But it is done all the time.

 

Don't try to rationalize or think logically about this

these things never make any sense.

 

meanwhile buy a roll of kodachrome ans shoot it soon.

[craig_sander]

If you live in the U.S., take the money you're gonna get from Uncle Sam, and use it to buy Kodachrome.

Heck, ANY film for that matter!

[a._t._burke]

Kodak is notoriously unresponsive to customer wants. But, does anybody have an idea on how to get them to make a run of 25 ISO Kodachrome? I'll bet it would sell well as there is a revival of Kodachrome interest.

 

New photographers are lured into using digital, as it is easy. Then some want to try film with their growing photographic interest. Then some want to try Kodachrome. I'd think that even that small proportion that gets that far would help make a production run of Kodachrome 25 once a year worthwhile for Kodak.

[randrew1]

Tom,

 

I've been away from Kodak for a couple years, but I can provide an answer on the K-25 quesrtion. When "13 room" was shut down a few years ago, the products that were made there had to move to the coating machine in building 38. That machine requires some formula changes to work there. K-64 made the switch OK, but K-25 (which was always more difficult to manufacture) ran into problems. It was going to take a lot of money to complete the reformulation. With the declining sales volume, it was unlikely they would ever recoup the investment.

 

My guess (truly a guess) is that it would take $500,000 or more to get K-25 going again.

 

Randall,

 

Thanks for the link. I will add it to my web page.

[benny_spinoza]

Craig Zander wrote "If you live in the U.S., take the money you're gonna get from Uncle Sam, and use it to buy Kodachrome. Heck, ANY film for that matter!"....LOL. I won't get a dime from Uncle Sam. He takes my money and gives it to others who, most likely, use a digital camera 'cause they are too dumb to know about film!

[robert_johnson15]

The demand must be there from some people! The last 10 roll pack of Kodachrome 25 I had in the freezer went for $375 on ebay. That's $37.50 a roll for film a year or two out of date but kept frozen at about -10F. I did have 30 rolls there at the end of production. I sold 10, used the rest, but have 3 rolls left for "special" subjects. I'd gladly buy a case (300 rolls) for the freezer if Kodak would make another run! I probably have 60 rolls of KL200 and 50 of KR64 in there at the moment. If I thought the 64 would go "poof" anytime soon, I'd buy more. B&H has over 1,000 rolls in stock at the moment of Kodachrome 64. Those would sure "lube up" my three Nikon F6's, but stocking 1,000 in my freezer would mean buying another freezer. <g>

 

Robert Johnson me@robertejohnson.com

[tbs]

If Kodak made a fresh run of K25, I'd buy as much as I could fit in my film freezer in about 2 seconds flat. However, the odds of that happening are about the same as the odds that Dick Cheney and Hillary Clinton will form a presidential ticket, managed jointly by Karl Rove and James Carville.

 

Seriously, I put the question of such a run to a medium-level Kodak official not that long ago, right after Fuji announced the re-release of Velvia 50 . He made it very clear that they have no intention of starting up K25 again, because "they" believe (quite sincerely, I'm sure) that Ektachrome 100G and 100GX are superior films, with finer grain, sharpness, and more faithful color. He even gave me free rolls of each to use to demonstrate his point. (They are nice films, but they aren't Kodachrome.)

 

So K64 is it for now. Shoot it, while you got it. The more we use it, presumably the longer before they can it.

[DB_Gallery]

K-25 was a pain in the butt to make, much more so than 64 so I was told by Kodak a year

or two ago. I am under the impression that is would be a much larger production to get it

up and running again than most realize.

 

For now, for my portion of my project, I have:

 

150 rolls of last batch ( 2003 ) KM-25

250 rolls of last batch KL-200

1,200 rolls of Kodachrome 64 in 24 and 36 exposure.

 

I figure that is enough to shoot for a couple years on the road if the stuff became

impossible to find.

[robert_johnson15]

Daniel, what do you know about the "stealth lab"? I have been assured it exists, but apparently where it's located and what it processes is a gum-mint secret of sorts! I do know for sure it's in the State of California.

 

Robert Johnson me@robertejohnson.com

[robert_johnson15]

Daniel, what do you know about the "stealth lab"? I have been assured it exists, but apparently where it's located and what it processes is a gum-mint secret of sorts! I do know for sure it's in the State of California.

 

Robert Johnson me@robertejohnson.com

[randrew1]

The list of Kodachrome galleries is growing: http://ronald.andrews.googlepages.com/kodachrome

 

I can confirm the difficulties in manufacturing K-25. I ran Kodachrome production for 5 years in the 80's. About half of the manufacturing orders encountered serious problems. The problems were never the same. One time the slow magenta emulsion was a little low in contrast. Another time a batch change in one of the green senzitizers caused trouble. Since K-25 shared the same yellow emulsions as K-64, it needed a large amount of yellow dye to absorb enough light to get it down to 25 speed. We used FD&C yellow number 5. Some batches had minute quantities of impurities that inhibited development. When we identified a cause, we could often find a fix. We tightened up on the specs for the yellow absorbing dye and eliminated this problem. Production should have gotten easier as the product matured. E-64 made continuous improvements and achieved outstanding consistency. K-25 didn't. There were problems for which we never found a cause. There were new problems that cropped up. My hair turned from mostly brown to mostly gray during these years. I'm not complaining. It was often exciting. When we solved a problem we would celebrate.

[tbs]

"I can confirm the difficulties in manufacturing K-25. I ran Kodachrome production for 5 years in the 80's. About half of the manufacturing orders encountered serious problems."

 

That's too bad, really. Consistency of product is what film users want above all, I think. I know I do.

 

Of course what's really too bad is that we never saw that rumored T-grain K100, which could have swept away all need for K25 or K64, while retaining the Kodachrome look. The Ektachrome 100 and 100G have a grain factor of about 7, compared to 8-9 for K25 and Velvia. Imagine that 7 matched with Kodachrome's sharpness and durability, and a very usuable 100 ISO. We can all dream...

[terry_m7]

Ron Andrews, Mar 06, 2008; 04:41 p.m. ---------------------

"When "13 room" was shut down a few years ago, the products that were made there had to move to the coating machine in building 38."

 

Ron, why exactly was Room 13 closed, and what happened to its Machines?

 

--------------------------------------------

 

Ron Andrews, Mar 07, 2008; 06:44 a.m. ---------------------

"I can confirm the difficulties in manufacturing K-25. I ran Kodachrome production for 5 years in the 80's. About half of the manufacturing orders encountered serious problems. The problems were never the same. ... When we identified a cause, we could often find a fix. ... There were problems for which we never found a cause. ..."

 

How scrupulous was the manufacturing process as regards Temperature? Variations in Temperature during coating -- even 1/4 Degree -- would make a difference. This could explain many of the problems.

 

On a separate matter, do you know the minimum amount of K64 that would have to be purchased for Kodak to be willing to cut it up into 16mm & 8mm formats (with and without Perforations)? I'm going to approach a private Film House about getting them to package K64 in 16 & 8mm formats, but it would be desirable to have the Film at least cut down to size -- even if not perforated. I don't know if they have machines to cut the full-size Film Sheets. How wide are the full Sheets? If this idea can launch, K64 will survive.

 

Mr. Terry Mester - http://www.geocities.com/filmanddigitalinfo/ARTICLE_PHOTO.html

[25asa]

Isn't it a 5000 foot roll by 42 inches wide for special order films?

[robert_johnson15]

FWIW Dept. - Last time someone I know asked, it was a minimun order of so many square feet or meters. I believe it was basically "one slice" off the master roll. One thing for sure I know they will NOT do is spool HIE into 120 paper. Almost anything after that was "game." The details on who to ask at Kodak and the amount, was at one time located on Kodak.Com. I'm sure if you call the Kodak headquarters on Monday morning, they'd connect you with the department that knows. Now whether you or I could afford same, that is the question!

 

Robert Johnson

[fredrik_sandstrom]

Terry - K64 in 16mm and 8mm would be awesome, I've thought about the same thing. Keep us posted on this! K40 in 16mm is now very hard to find as Wittner Kinotechnik just discontinued Wittner Chrome 40T; see my latest <a href="http://photo.oktett.net/index.php?/archives/27-No-more-Wittner-Chrome-40T-in-16mm.html">blog entry</a> on that.

[randrew1]

Terry,

 

"13 room" hasn't been torn down yet, mostly because you have to go through 13 room to get to 14 room which is still in operation making motion picture print film. I don't know, but I suspect much of the equipment has been removed to get these capital assets off the books and take a tax write-off.

 

Temperatures were monitored closely. I'm confident that wasn't the problem.

 

I don't know the minimum quantity for a special order. A standard stock roll was 54 inches by 6545 feet. I agree with Robert Johnson: call and ask.

[reuben_c]

<blockquote><hr><i>Since K-25 shared the same yellow emulsions as K-64, it needed a large amount of yellow dye to absorb enough light to get it down to 25 speed.</i><hr></blockquote>

 

How's that work?

<p></blockquote>

The yellow layer is the <I>top</I> layer, and the yellow filter is <i>below</i> it, to block yellow from hitting the cyan and magenta layers. Adding yellow dye <i>to</I> the yellow layer (i.e., mixed in with it, as opposed to the Cary Lea colloidal silver filter layer) would only affect the underlying layers, n'est ce pas?

[randrew1]

Reuben,

 

A dye like tartrazine yellow (FD&C yellow number 5) is soluble and spreads out through all of the layers. There is a UV filter layer and an overcoat layer above the yellow emulsion layer. Enough of the dye gets into these layers to absorb blue light before it gets to the blue sensitive (yellow dye forming) emulsion layer. The dye pretty much goes wherever there is gelatin. Since most of the gelatin is below the yellow emulsions you have to add a lot of yellow dye to get enough to be effective. If you are addiding a large amount of dye, then some of the impurities get to be important. This was one of the success stories about 20 years ago. An analytical chemist figured out how to test batches of the dye and predict which ones would have a problem. This was a lot easier and cheaper than putting a new batch in a coating to see what happens.

[reuben_c]

Sounds like you're suggesting that some batches of K25 were really K64 that had been throttled-back via dye acting as an integral ND filter?