The "ideal" 4x5 Graphic (question)

[german]

Hi,

 

So far I purchased and resold two 4x5 view cameras that I had intended to use

for both landscapes and portraiture. The last one was very heavy, including

the metal case, etc. (With the one before that I did not have enough time to

develop the film -- and I did not want to spend the money necessary to send it

out for developing.)

 

Now, I'd like to try one of the Press Graphic 4x5s and I know there is a great

variety of them, each with its own pluses and minuses.

 

The reasons I'd like to try said cameras, again, for both portraiture and

landscape, is that they don't seem as cumbersome (and/or heavy) as the whole

view camera equipment I previously had. (And of course I love the 4x5 for many

reasons I am sure many of you share. So, no need to "go there.")

 

Now, this is what I need:

 

1. Portable, graphic camera (either speed, crown graphic, classic, etc)

2. Back that may be rotated to use vertically or horizontally, and that could

be used with a Polaroid back (I love Type 55 film!)

3. The ability to change lenses (to use longer, portrait lenses)

4. The availibility of said lenses (and that they are not too expensive). (I

think I need to get one that accepts "barrel" lenses, or something to that

effect.)

5. Tilting and shifting and whatever other movements one could do with the lens

(or the plane of the lens) for either architectural shots or to provide

variations of depth of field in the portraits)

6. I don't remember what else I need from said camera, but I am sure one of you

guys can point out some other "necessity" in such a camera!

.... Oh, and by the way, I don't want to spend too much money on this thing!

(Hey, it's Christmas time! We can just ask for whatever we like wholeheartedly

and it will probably happens!)

 

In any case, which one of the available Graphic cameras (or any other portable,

relatively inexpensive 4x5 camera) could fit the description mentioned above?

 

I'll really appreciate your input.

 

Thanks again and Merry Christmas!

 

G.

[ian_mazursky]

IIRC the only graphic that has a rotating back is the super speed and the super graphic.

 

If you want to use a barrel lens, you will need the super speed graphic probably with a custom lens board. Try SK Grimes.

 

Check out http://graflex.org/

They have allot of information about all of the graflex cameras.

 

From my ebay travels, the super speeds are hard to find and expensive. If you can live without a rotating back, go for a speed

graphic.

If you can live without the barrel lenses, go for a crown. I have one and its fantastic.

 

One thing to remember about all of the speed graphics. The rear shutters can be flaky. Some wont work at all.

You may have to service the camera in order to use it.

 

Good luck!

 

-ian

[BrianS1664879711]

You might have to make some choices, Ian, since several of the items on your wish list may not exist on the same Graphic camera.

 

As mentioned before, rotating back = Super Graphic. Super Graphic = expensive unless you do your shopping well. Also, Super Graphic uses a hard-to-find lensboard.

 

Barrel lenses = any graphic with rear shutter (which does NOT include Super Graphic).

 

Some of the older Graphics (Anniversary, for instance - which could be a decent choice for you) often don't have a Graflock back. Some have been retrofit by prior owners, and this is good because it allows use of regular film holders and Polaroid/roll-film backs.

 

Additional lenses can be found, but must either have the appropriate cam (Super Graphic) or have the rangefinder adjusted for the specific lens. That somewhat precludes rapid lens changes. Ground glass focussing, of course, is always possible.

 

I have not found the Graphic to be a terrific portrait camera (I use both Anniversary and Super Graphic). For landscape work on tripod using cable release either is good enough. I like (and use) the elecronic releases for hand-held photography - the Super Graphic release is built-in (hence the "special" lens boards) and Anniversary is via a Graflite flash holder and lensboard-moutned solenoid. For portraiture, however, I still find either 35mm or MF to be superior.

[BrianS1664879711]

Sorry... that message should have been directed to 'German', not 'Ian'. My apology for the error.

[german]

Hey,

 

Thanks Ian & Brian!

 

I may have to go for a MF instead, if I have all those requirements --which are not met in one single 4x5, Press camera.

 

I like the Mamiyas (both RB and RZ) in this respect! Not too expensive, quite sturdy, a nice 6x7 neg, several good lenses available, etc.

 

Or I may just have to get some more money together and get another 4x5 view ... but, wait, they're kind of heavy!

[thirteenthumbs]

Ian is correct with the Super and Super Speed Graphics being the only Graphics with a rotating back.<br>The Super Speed is the only Speed Graphic that does not have a Focal Plane Shutter or FPS for short.<br>

Super and Super Speed Graphics can use the same lens board as the Pacemaker Series Graphics made from 1958 and later. The electronic shutter release function will not work with them though.

[BrianS1664879711]

Charles: slight correction to the FPS: "The Crown Graphic, Century Graphic, Super Graphic, and Super Speed Graphic models all lack the focal plane shutter..." from Graflex.org FAQ

 

German: Most of my work is now done in MF - Hasselblad. I thought about 6x7 but got used to "square" from using Rollei TLR.

 

If you get another viewcamera, there are many good deals on the Cambo monorail and accessories out there (meaning ebay). As you say, though, they are heavy! I've actually been enhancing my Cambo (now configured for wide-angle) but every time I take it out I start thinking about a field camera.

[35mmdelux]

RZ II Pro; $650 complete rig, including lens, rotating back. Or, save some dough and get the straight RZ Pro. Rig far exceeds the capability of most photogs. See them all the time, rock bottom prices.

 

Ciao - Paul

[thirteenthumbs]

Brian, reread my first post, Super Speed is the "Only Speed" without the FPS. Crown, Century, & Super Graphics are "not Speed's", they do not have the word Speed in their names. :)

[BrianS1664879711]

methinks you are splitting hairs... but that's okay. :)

[thirteenthumbs]

The Speed Graphic was the first press type camera made by Folmer & Schwing under one of its many names over the years. The Speed is a particular model that was made from 1912 until 1970 in 4 major versions. It is colloquial jargon that has applied the term Speed to any press camera made by Graflex Corp. and sometimes other companies press cameras. (All Callidacs are not Coup de Ville's, all Lincoln's are not Connentinals, all raidoactive material is not Radium, and on and on and on.)

[german]

Hey guys,

 

I just read about the Chamomix 45n-1. It sounds interesting (and not expensive!).

 

There are some images here: http://davidbram.blogspot.com/

 

Please let me know what your thoughts are on said camera.

 

Paul, that RZ sounds interesting too!

[keith_lubow]

If you are going to complain about weight, you are in the wrong arena entirely. Get the junky Toyo. It's cheap crap, but it's light and it works. All it is is a cheesy Graflex press camera clone.

 

Keith

[kelly_flanigan1]

Toyo is more than a graphic clone; they bought the tooling in 1973.<BR><BR>A speed graphic has a focal plane shutter. It may also may have a leaf shutter in the taking lens; or it may have a barrel lens.<BR><BR>A crown has no focal plane shutter.<BR><BR>Saying a crown is speed graphic is a blunder. <BR><BR>Its like calling your neighbors wife a man.<BR><BR> Its like calling Hillary a republican; or Bush a democrat. <BR><BR>It just peaks one's ears up if your hear the blunder; and wonder if the speaker is an idiot or being a goofball; or its wierd advertising. <BR><BR>If the person is not from the USA then you might just think they are passing time talking; but read their languange book wrong. <BR><BR>If its a photo person; calling a crown a speed is like calling a Nikon F a rangefinder; tri-x slide film; calling 4x5 minox film. <BR><BR>Its like scratching fingers on the caulkboard. <BR><BR>Mistakes like this happens in the movies when the era of the movie is ancient; period reviewers strive to catch major goofs. Maybe Sinbad is on starboard tack and he says he is before the wind. It makes the listener perk up for more major goofs/blunders. Its sometimes done in advertising purposely. It fires up ones brain when nonsense, doublespeak erupts.

[keith_lubow]

Nails on a chalkboard to me is when photo reporters in the movies are shooting with bulbs, but the sound effect is that of flash powder igniting. As we all know, these cameras are practically silent (with leaf shutter). The sound of the lacquer sizzling on the bulb after the shot is the loudest part.

 

All I have left are blue #5 bulbs...ho hum. I need to stock up on clear ones again.

 

Keith

[matt_needham]

"It just peaks one's ears up if your hear the blunder; and wonder if the speaker is an idiot or being a goofball..."

 

Actually, I've always known exactly what they mean, and being photographers rather than gear masturbators we moved on with the conversation. Non "photo persons" refer to any Graphic as "an old camera". 99% of the professional photographers and photo enthusiasts I've encountered over the last 15 years refer to my Crown Graphic as a Speed Graphic. A better metaphor would be to refer to generic facial tissues as Kleenex.

[BrianS1664879711]

As always, Kelly... you're a pip! Thanks for the laugh!! Hope this season of good spirit and goodwill finds you, and yours, well!!!

[dan_fromm2]

Mutt, what do you have against clear communications? Mott, I realize that Graflex Inc's (also predecessors and successors) terminology is at best confusing, but don't see any reason why we should add more. And this has nothing to do with sex, Mytt.

[pje]

German, Busch Pressman D. All metal and solid (I believe the Graphics used a wood housing)

rotating back. Not expensive. Lens boards are not as common but I've found a few and had

some fab'd.

[german]

Hey Paul, thanks, but it seems people are catching on and raising the price on those Pressman D's. I see one with min. of $635 on the "e" site right now.

[dan_fromm2]

German, asking is easy, getting is hard.

[german]

Yeap. Hopefully he has to lower the price for his next offering!

[michael_gilday]

German, if you don't have your heart set on a Graflex camera, the Burke & James Watson is very, very similar press camera to a Crown Graphic (i.e. no focal-plane shutter), but includes a rotating back. They're a little less common, but also command less of a premium than their Graflex cousins. And the average Joe on the street will still point at it and go "Oooh, a Speed Graphic!". :)

[kelly_flanigan1]

Several years ago a neighbor say me taken an image of my house using one of my 4x5 Speed Graphic's on a Tiltall tripod; and asked if was a movie camera! I guess I assumed folks know somewhat the difference in what a movie camera and still camera look like. Sorry if I ruffled anybody's feathers over the rant about Speeds versus Crowns.<BR><BR>Press cameras have a place in the large format forum; they are not considered decent:) by all. They can be cool starter cameras if one *settles* for just a press lens; with marginal coverage. A used 4x5 speed or crown with 127mm ektar can be bought; used for awhile; and sold if 4x5 films are not ones bag without losing ones shirt in money spent. They are more like buying a metal lathe; if working they dont drop to super low used prices; or become door stops like a dead P&S film camera. <BR><BR>I have also wondered if Michael could work on a buying flowchart article for starting with LF cameras; with a fork for the lower cost press camera route; showing its pluses and minuses. A super coverage lens costs alot of dough; they are cool but not everybody can afford a super angulon and ebony body. <BR><BR>A revolving back on 4x5 is cool; but to involves a way lower subset of cameras; often with higher prices. A poor mans route is to use the other tripod socket on a speed graphic; or just rotate the rig by hand. In old press usage the 4x5 frame is almost square; so rotating often would waste time. <BR><BR>A common trap for a new buyer of a press camera is to assume that a Graflok back camera is a 4x5 camera; or that a Speed Graphic is always a 4x5 body. Beware what an ebay seller omits in the text. Here I have a 3x4 speed with a Graflok; I think Dan has some 2x3 models with them. Another old trap is to see an Ebay press camera; and assume its a 4x5. Folks hawk a 3x4 camera and often never mention that it is a 3x4; then get into the trap of finding 3x4 film holders, 3x4 roll film adapters cheaply. To the quick eye with no references for scale; the 3x4 looks like a 4x5; but the rangefinder looks abit big! Thus a sneaky chap may say they dont know much about cameras; position the finder so its not well seen and sell a 3x4 with no comment that it is a 3x4.<BR><BR> Finding practical 3x4 roll film holder at a low cost is like finding a low cost 6 1/4" saw blade with 5/8" arbor for my old Hitachi portable circular saw; abit tough. The 160mm by 16mm blade was Hitachi's attempt at a standard that failed. Go ask for this blade at Home Depot and *every* expert will correct you; since they are ignorant of obscure saw blades. A 6 1/2" hits the housing; thus I use a smaller 5 1/2 blade usually on this 15 year old saw.<BR><BR>

[kelly_flanigan1]

sa<b>w</b>