two questions (maybe silly)

[mvisionphotography]

Ok, you know I can't find the "photo.net Site Feedback" on the forum list (or

some of the others (forum lists) unless I go to POST A QUESTION and then click

on it from there without asking a question.

 

I think maybe we need sub-category's in the FORUM area as that might be why so

many people just use the casual questions to ask all the questions that could

be asked here in places like the feedback.

 

Maybe I am just ignorant (won't be the first time) but until I finally said

I'll just ask the question and clicked on it BAM I found it and then went AHA.

 

I just didn't want to ask a question that had already been asked and then THAT

made me realize maybe nobody had ever suggested that several of these things on

the "question" list are not on the list to look at.

 

My REAL question I was going to ask about.

 

I noticed how small the box is to correct something when we want to change our

mistakes (like two inches). Is there anyway that we can make it bigger? It

sure would be easier than scrolling down a long three paragraphed sentence to

find a couple of errors or changing a sentence. I am of course talking about

on the picture comment section since we can't correct our forum questions

(darn).

 

Thanks so much. I am assuming Jin would be doing this. But as always, hi

Josh.

 

(smile)

 

~ micki

[joshroot]

That "post edit" ability for the critiques area is going to go away shortly. Too many people are using it to change a positive statement into a negative statement as a revenge for some slight.

 

What it will be replaced with is the ability to edit a post within a specific time frame (say 15 minutes) so that you could check for errors. I intend to implement this site-wide so that you can edit typos from forum posts as well.

[mvisionphotography]

I understand that. Will we still be able to delete our comments? I hope so. I find that sometimes it is easier to just delete my comment if I have caused any ill will on a picture. Sometimes people say they want "comment and critique" when all they really want is praise or a high rating.

 

Also what I really want is that bigger box so I can find my silly spelling mistake (yes again my spelling mistake). :) Those 15 minutes should do fine for me as I normally look through it in the next few minutes but I will be honest. You start messing with that 15 minute time frame for others your going to have others breathing down your neck. :( (sigh) Good luck. As long as they can delete their comment it should be fine. They will still be able to write another comment. We can't stop the rude people (or negative) people here on PN. DARN

[joshroot]

I am still up in the air about the option to delete. Again, people use that as a weapon against other people. Deleting their good comments when they feel slighted. People either need to accept critique or not ask for it. I am tired of getting beat up for how there is not enough useful critique on photo.net, and then also having to waste my time dealing with crybabies who can't accept a critique when given.

 

Maybe we should have two areas of the site for critiques. One where people actually go to learn, and another where all you can say is "Great image!" with a stupid smiley face.

[mvisionphotography]

I think you should give us options to delete our comments only for the fact that my name is attached to those pictures and I want to have the option the delete my name (and comment) IF the discussion gets over the top. Sometimes people can be very RUDE back to you and that is not something I want to have GOGGLED back to me. Do you understand that?

 

When my name is attached to everything I say I am responsible for it. I understand that in the forum but when my name is attached to the pictures I comment on I don't know WHO I am commenting on and sometimes they are a bit weird or they lash out and sometimes it is easier for me just to delete the comment. Sometimes they can come to one of my pictures and say something not nice or actually ask me to delete my nice comment. AND, I do so.

 

I think not being able to delete a comment (sometime on a photo they might have posted for sentimental reasons) is going to be something a bit over tasking for you.

 

I know that you will have MANY people e-mailing you PLEASE let me delete that comment. I said something totally (a) out of line or (b) something that the person would like me to delete because it might offend the person IN the picture (the model).

[joshroot]

If someone is rude back to another user after a reasonable critique has been given, that is the comment which should be deleted. Not the original critique.

[amechurchill]

Hmmm.... Micki, Josh does have a point here, and I do agree with him. However... I do agree with you Micki that we should still be able to delete or edit our own comments. Personally, if those options are taken away from me, I will be less likely to leave a critique. Perhaps there are other options for dealing with these types of people, and maybe this isn't the place for them to be.

[mvisionphotography]

Exactly, but if HE/SHE won't delete their comment then I have been known to, after been harrassed, to just delete my comments and go on my way ignoring the whole situation. It just makes me happier. Then the person with the picture understands and knows that I am not going to stay there and take that abuse anymore. If you can't get the "rude" person to see that they are wrong and they won't delete (well they won't be able to anymore) there comment then it is better to just leave them alone and then look like a fool with there comments all alone. There have been times I have deleted my comment above said "RUDE" person and then re-wrote my praise to a picture below the "RUDE" person. See, I can't be in control of anyone but myself. NOW, if you take away my control it will be hard for me to want to do anything except for e-mail people with the critiques. Something I do now for several people anyway. My concern is if we micro manage to much of how we critique and such (or change the way we do things) it will just upset the flow of things. I totally actually understand the after 15 minute thing, thinking about it. I guess I am having problems with the deleting my postings.

 

My issue is I right now have a posting on a picture I might want to delete. Mainly because I'm not thrilled of the converstation that is going on. If people go way off topic sometimes I don't want my critique comment to be associated with that picture. Understand? Now my comment/critique was first. I had not control. All I do is e-mail the person so they understand why I am deleting my critique.

[mvisionphotography]

Angela, the problem would be that Josh doesn't have time for us to go JOHN SMITH is writing bad junk again and saying crappy things. Could you delete his comments because they are offending us.

 

I know both you and I have been lucky enough to have someone learn how to use the "DELETE" button in one of our comment strings. YEAH!

 

He just didn't know how after he realized he was out of line. You learn from doing it. It was a great thing after he clicked delete and all was better. YEAH!

[Norma Desmond]

People do all kinds of stupid things. They do things for revenge. They do things in hopes

they, themselves, will get better ratings. You will never stop a certain amount of people

from acting inanely. You will institute one restriction which limits the majority of us who

don't abuse the system and the nuts will figure out a different way to annoy all of us. You

will

then institute more restrictions and on and on. You will accomplish nothing but to accede

to the misbehavior of the few by limiting the tools and flexibility of the many. The more

you take away from the children in the sandbox, the more ways they will figure out how to

be more childish. Censorship and authoritarian restraints that infringe on liberty always

yield worse results than allowing the pitfalls of freedom to play themselves out. This is a

privately-owned and run site and you have every right to do what you want with it. That

doesn't make all this institutionalized behavior control right. One of the most important

freedoms people have is the freedom to make asses of themselves and many will do that

with abandon. I know you get a lot of complaints by people who want others' behavior

controlled. You just have to make it clear that this is a public place and the limits set will

be

few and that's that. It is better for us to deal with it on a case by case basis than for you to

do so. I know all this must be a hassle. You have to choose the lesser of two evils. I don't

envy your choices.

[amechurchill]

HAHAHA Micki.... I honestly believe the person you are speaking of knew how to delete all along. His comments on others portfolios and such kinda proved that really... I think anyway. No one really knows for sure. But... if we are going to use this guy as an example, then, of course Josh doesn't have the time to run around parenting everyone, I agree with you there. Sometimes... the "bad kid" needs to be kicked out of class. Might seem harsh, but, why take away our privileges because of one bad apple? This bad apple you are referring too still continues to leave rude comments everywhere anyway.

I do understand Josh's point, but, I don't think taking away our ability to delete a comment is going to help. I honestly think it will make matters worse, allowing the rude ones to get even more obnoxious, and the people who really care won't leave comments anymore.

[joshroot]

We have an abuse moderator for just this reason. If someone has responded rudely to a critique given to them, they need to be reported and the rude response will be removed. If that person continues to react badly to honest critique, they will be removed from the community.

 

The problem does not lie with those who are giving critique, it lies with those who cannot accept it.

[mvisionphotography]

I just personally hate that you would give us one rule and then all the sudden change it. I have made over 4,000 comments under the assumption that at anytime I could delete any of them if I wanted to. Maybe if I all the sudden felt to I could go to said "RUDE" person and delete all my comments. Hmmm

 

See, silly me actually DOES go to people's portfolio and LOOKS at who people comment on. If someone did come and look on my portfolio and did a look on my comment section and saw that I commented on his pictures maybe I would be a bit embarrassed. BUT, if I deleted those comments then I would feel better. Do you understand?

 

But, honestly I haven't deleted them. I'm not THAT sort of person. BUT, I would have that ability to do so if I wanted to and that is my FREEDOM here and I like that.

 

Comments to be are a network tool for me. If I want to delete that string of network or that piece of where I have been then I think I should have that right.

 

Sorry, I really do feel strongly about this one thing.

[amechurchill]

Josh, I do understand what you are saying, I just don't think it's fair to take away our ability to delete our comments. I think Micki's clearly covered those reasons. I do feel strongly about this too, and I would be hesitant to offer a critique knowing I won't be able to delete them later if I choose to. They are my words, I should have that right. Fred has made many strong points here as well, and I feel they should be considered. Those who react badly are the ones you are referring to, and they will continue to do so regardless. It is the majority of the photo.net population that should be considered, and the rest should be handled case by case. Sorry.. I do feel strongly about this as well, and I feel our opinions are not being considered.

[joshroot]

I will take your comments into consideration.

<P>

However, everyone needs to know this: the ratings/critique system is going to change. I understand that you may be annoyed to have a site feature and then not have it in the future. But that is the nature of change.

<P>

I cannot keep every single thing the way it is now AND change the critique and ratings system to make everyone happy.

<ul>

<li>Anonymous vs public ratings

<li>Ability to edit/delete posts and ratings

<li>Non-subscriber ratings

<li>revenge rating restrictions by the server

<li>private vs public critique requests

<li>ability to rate the same person over and over again

<li>options to limit the speed that ratings can be given

<li>systems to prevent the automating of ratings

</ul><P>

All of those things and more will be looked at and very likely changed.

[joshroot]

I also encourage everyone to read the photo.net <a href="http://www.photo.net/info/terms-of-use">terms of use</a> regarding site submissions.

<P>

<i>"You retain copyright to images and text uploaded to photo.net. By submitting material, however, you grant photo.net and its successors or assigns a perpetual non-exclusive world-wide royalty-free license to publish that material on the World Wide Web as part of the photo.net web site."</i>

<p>

Some version of this clause has been in the user agreement for as long as I can remember, and I have been here for 9 years. The ability to keep a record of all of the information submitted on this website is what has made photo.net such a lasting resource. You absolutely have the right to keep your words off of photo.net, but that choice starts before you use the website. Not after.

[lorilafs]

Howdy, folks!

Interesting discussion here. I think you all have made good and strong points. I think Josh's last comment (at 1:33pm) pretty well sums it up...what can and will be done-when reported thru the right channels. Micki-we still have the Freedom of Speech here in America. As such we are all aloud to say whatever we want. The upshoot of that in this and many other communities, is... as long as it doesn't infringe upon anyone else's rights. In this case the rude and abusive comments are hurting others. But, like Fred so succinctly put it--and I agree wholeheartedly--they really serve only to make asses of themselves. I understand why you feel so strongly about being able to delete your comments, Micki, but once the words are out there, that's it! You can delete the hard copy, but you can't delete it from the minds of all those who have already read it. What I don't understand is how your kind words (you have left me several welcomed comments) can be misconstrued as rude or abusive. If someone can only see negative, it doesn't matter what is really said. You could leave a glowing, very positive comment and they'll still see it as negative. I wouldn't worry so much about this, Micki. You seem like a wonderful person, and a fantastic photographer (and that's not just lip-service). Say what you need to say about photos and let that person interpret it as he will. I always say "It is what it is", and it saves me a lot of grief. I hope this helps-at least a little! (and doesn't come off as negative!) Cheer Up!

[Norma Desmond]

Thanks Lori. True.

 

If we no longer have the ability to remove a comment then we have to go back

and re-explain ourselves. Contexts change. We often have to change what we once said.

With lovers, family members, friends, and with internet companions. We don't usually do

that by erasing stuff but by saying something new in a new way. In the real world, we have

to live by what we say, learn to think before we speak, realize that contexts may change

and if they do, deal with it with new words and new thoughts that change the old ones.

 

Again, I'm for the least

intervention by authorities possible. I don't even think rude comments should be deleted

by outside sources. If someone is abusive and reported, that person should be removed

from the community for breaking the agreed upon rules of the site. When that person is

removed, so will be his comments. But until that drastic measure happens, stupid

comments or comments typically perceived as rude should stand as a testament to the

idiot who wrote them. We can all put them into context and most of us will think no less of

the person receiving the comment and know more about the person who left it.

Knowledge, it is said, is power. I want to know who the fools are by what they say.

Otherwise I leave myself very vulnerable and powerless.

[mvisionphotography]

I think it all boils down to the fact that when I signed up for PN and I put down "what do you want your NAME" to be here and I put down fergiswife I thought THAT would be what my name would be everytime I left a comment. It wasn't until I started leaving comments that I went OMG my REAL name is there. I followed the directions when signing up for PN and then there you go. My name in bold print everytime I leave a comment. Sometimes we leave comments in the heat of a discussion OR that discussion turns into something we don't want our names associated with. That is all I'm saying. Sometimes someone is very benign when they start posting pictures here on PN and the next thing you know they are posting pictures I don't want my name on their portfolio. Understand?

If it wasn't my actual NAME (my real name) I wouldn't care as much. PN people can all go everywhere and see me anywhere but out there in the real world I am findable here and that can pose a problem. No I didn't make a "fake" name but others do and then they do strange things here and sometimes I don't want to be associated with what weird things go on. Therefor I want the right to delete my comments after finding them changing their tune (months later). That is all. Either that or let me change my last name now.

 

I do also think that while you are making all these considerations that for "safety" reasons that we should maybe only use our first names here. For the safety of the children on PN. I find many Adults that put there own kids on PN here with there own addresses not realizing they are opening there own doors wide open for anyone to come on over.

 

It is not as clear as you might think when signing up. (sigh)

 

Just hate being found so easily. All my comments out there for all the world to see.

 

As far as people being rude to me, it falls right off my back. I am a big girl and can handle myself. I just hate it when it is out there for the world to see. They, as Fred said, only make fools of themselves.

 

Thanks Lori, you are SO sweet ;) Most of the time if someone is rude the are rude about the picture and HOW can I not see how awful it is. You have yet to see some of the rude people here. May you NEVER be so lucky!

[lorilafs]

LOL! You don't have to be a PN member to have had your share of rude, nasty comments and the fools whose mouths out of which they come. What's that old proverb? "A wise man has opinions, but keeps them to himself; A fool opens his mouth and removes all doubt." (or something like that)

Anywho...I think this subject has been beaten to death already...don't You?

Have a stupendous nite, y'all!

[Norma Desmond]

I agree with you about the NAME issue completely. Our names should be on file, but we

should be allowed SCREEN NAMES.

 

I also thought our email addresses were not going to be made public. When we chose the

name at the top of our portfolios, mine happens to be FJAYGOLDSMITH, I assumed our

email address was going to be given out as FJAYGOLDSMITH@photo.net and then would be

forwarded to our actual address through this system. I haven't gone back to look at the

sign up info but I was clearly under that impression at the time and think that would be an

important feature of safety that could be added to the site.

 

As for someone posting pictures you don't want to be associated with after you've already

left a comment, that will happen. Go back and write a subsequent comment saying just

that and why. If you feel you have a valid reason, the adult who will be getting your

comment will just have to be adult enough to understand.

 

I'm sure there are organizations I've joined, college articles I wrote for the school

newspaper, letters to the editor I wrote to the local paper that I wish I could expunge from

my record. I can't. I just move on and do the best I can now and hope people will judge me

by a combination of my past and present, giving more weight to the present if it seems

genuine.

[lorilafs]

ooh...that sounded negative, didn't it? What irony! Sorry!

[derek_hofmann]

It's easier to ignore hostile criticism when you know that nobody else shares that person's opinion. Do you all agree? Other sites use a peer-moderation system, where if you don't agree with a message, you'd click the thumbs-down button or rate it 1 star or something, using Ajax so it doesn't have to reload the whole page when you do so. Enough downmods could eventually hide the message, automatically. Out of sight, out of mind! Both flamewars and outright deletions would be avoided, and the official moderators would have more time for other things.

[joshroot]

Micki,

 

If that is the real issue behind your concerns, I can fix it for you. Though it isn't reflected in the Terms of Use yet, the policy on supporting anonymity has been modified. While we like people to post using their real names, since it tends to encourage people to think twice before they make insulting or rude posts, we also understand that there are numerous reasons that someone might not want to be identified specifically. We do not want to create a community where people are afraid to give out information or opinions. That is counter to our educational mission.

 

Email me at "contact@photo.net" and we'll see if I can't get the issue settled to your satisfaction.

[lorilafs]

i was referring to my comment..not Fred's