best camera for evening sports and no-flash dance competitions

[xpiotiavos]

k100d + 18-55 + 70-300 is a great kit. Those are the same exact lenses that I have, and they'll be great for you to start with.

 

yes, you need a camera bag. it would be a bit ill-advised to not invest $40 in a decently padded bag in order to protect your $600+ of camera gear. I'd take a look at the LowePro Slingshot 100 bag, which is half backpack/half shoulder bag. But there are lots and lots of bags to choose from.

 

I'm sorry your found a sleezy camera salesman who tried to get you to blow your budget--i hate it when salespeople don't LISTEN to their customers and recommend something they can afford. The k10d is a wonderful camera (i'll probably be blowing some money on one soon), but it's a long shot from a beginner's SLR, and it's out of your price range.

 

That being said, don't be afraid of buying a camera online--just make sure you're buying from a reputable dealer. MAKE SURE you look up the store on www.resellerratings.com BEFORE you buy. If you go the eBay route, make sure you buy from well established sellers who offer good return policies in case you want to return it.

 

(sorry for jumping around from subject to subject. it's getting pretty late at night where i am).

 

The only "last thought" I can think of is this: don't even bother trying to go shooting with normal AA batteries in your camera--they'll die before you even realize where you are. Get some Energizer e2 Lithium AA batteries. I recently took a two and a half week trip to Africa during which I shot almost 2000 pictures, and I only changed batteries ONCE.

[wendy_garrison]

Thanks again---I am going to order it online and I'll make sure to get the higher quality batteries. I'm hoping it is here in time for next week's football game. How amazing that you went to Africa! The Principal of the school that I substitute teach in has gone to Africa several times. She has several beautiful pictures on her wall that she took over there. Once again, thanks for all your help!

[nige_buddy]

since the Slingshot has been mentioned... I'll give that a big thumbs up! I have a 200 model (my K10D wouldn't fit in the 100 which I originally set out to buy but I can't remember what was the problem... maybe my flashgun wouldn't fit... whatever it was I went for the 200) so check the dimensions or find a shop with one to test it once you have the camera. As a photo bag I think they are great. I just finished a 3mth trip using it and it worked great. Acts like a backpack but you can swing it around and have good access without taking it off.

 

Regarding batteries, doesn't it come with a rechargeable battery pak?

[wendy_garrison]

I looked at the Lowepro sling, and while it looks like a good bag, as well as several shoulder bags, I'm looking for something that can be worn more as a waistpack. When getting on rides at Disney World or getting in and out of the car I would have to bring the sling around to my front and that would be bulky while sitting in a ride. I don't ride on roller coasters and rides like that, so the chances of the camera being lost or damaged in that way is minimal. I like the Winnie the Poooh and Peter Pan rides----that's my kind of ride. I'm going to keep looking around, but I was wondering if you knew of any that could be worn as a waist pack. Dell has one that looks like a messenger bag but can be worn as a waist pack---one of the measurements is 12"----I don't want to look like I am lugging a suitcase around in front of me nor do I want my legs to keep bumping into it as I walk. I'll keep looking around.

[xpiotiavos]

Nige, the k100d takes AA batteries, and can accept CRV3 packs as well. The AA compatibility is actually a HUGE plus for me on my *ist DL because AA batteries can be brought where electricity is unreliable (e.g., Africa).

 

The good thing about bags, Wendy, is that there are hundreds of good ones to choose from. LowePro makes great bags, and so do several other companies. You shouldn't have any trouble finding what you want--just make sure you're getting what you want ;).

 

 

and speaking of the slingshot, Nige, I'm actually thinking of purchasing the 100 at the moment, but if the k10d (which i'll be getting eventually) doesn't fit, then i guess i'll go ahead and get the 200. is there much room in the top of the bag for extras (perhaps a water bottle and some snacks)?

[stwrtertbsratbs5]

Robert, that's an absolutely ridiculous statement. If we were talking about the pro market, I'd agree with you--but we're not. Nikon and Canon make fantastic pro grade and 'pro-sumer' grade equipment, but when it comes to consumer DSLRs, they're most certainly not the only "real players."

 

Not so ridiculous, Adam. We have been living through a shakeout in the camera industry. Contax/Kyocera is gone. Minolta is gone. Bronica is gone. Leica still bumps along with their Leicasonic digital cameras, but they are still losing money.

 

When you buy a camera, you marry the mount. I'd rather buy Canon or Nikon because they are long-term players. I can always use my lenses on future bodies.

[wendy_garrison]

Well, I did it----I ordered the K100 online today. It takes 3-5 days to ship, so I might have it by next week's football game. My son who plays football told me he thinks he wants to go back to playing soccer. He started playing at age 5 and was always very good. He was a starting forward on his Middle School team in 7th and 8th grade and played most of every game. Whatever sport he chooses, I'm sure this camera will be able to handle. Thank you, Thank you for all that helped, especially Adam who put a lot of time into his responses to me. I can't wait to get the camera and try it out----now I need to find a good, but small and understandable (for people like me that have no idea what they are doing!) book about DSLR photography. Thanks again!

[James G. Dainis]

Wendy,

 

You might also consider picking up the Sony DSC H7 or H9 to take to Disney world. At 14.3 oz with lens it would be easy to carry in a hand bag and you would have all the zoom from 31mm to 465mm.

That would be much more convenient than trying to carry the K100D (1 lb. 7.3 oz) Sigma 70-300mm (1 lb. 4.6 oz.) and Pentax 18-55mm (7.9 oz) and changing out the lenses.

 

You might also decide to take the H7 to those soccer games. In Advanced Sports Shooting mode it will give you those action freezing shots you want.

 

Then too, you might want to try the H7 in low light. Wth f/2.7 it would have twice the light gathering capabilities of the Sigma f/4 or the Pentax f/3.5

 

With the Pentax you have now moved from wanting to take good pictures to adopting photography as a hobby.

[xpiotiavos]

Robert: Minolta's not gone, they've just been merged into Sony (wanna try and argue that Sony's not a "long term player"?). The mount still exists. There's been alot of speculation about Pentax going away, but let's face it: they just got bought by a HUGE company with very deep pockets, and have since shown nothing but signs of growth. Sure, Canon and Nikon ARE serious players, and as I said before, they make fantastic systems, but they're certainly NOT the only people making great consumer DSLRs. In fact, Sony might be making a play on the "pro-sumer" market with the new alpha 700 that looks like a rather strong competitor to the D300.

 

And while we're talking about "marrying the mount," let's not forget that Canon and Nikon are famous for making new bodies that don't work with some of their OWN lenses, whereas Pentax bodies will work with any Pentax lens ever made.

 

 

Wendy, enjoy your new toy! On the subjects of books to help you learn, you might first read all the internet material you can to get a good grasp on the basics. I'd be a shame to spend money on a book that doesn't help you as much as you need it to.

 

Don't forget to share your photos with the board!

[wendy_garrison]

James---the Sony H7 is one of the first cameras I was looking at, but more than one person recommended a SLR for the low light sports and dance competitions. I would have preferred to go with a cheaper, lighter camera like the H7, but I am happy that I purchased the K100. It will give me an opportunity to learn more about photography and to take some really great shots of my kids and dogs. I'm sure the Pentax will be able to capture my son playing football or soccer and my daughter dancing. I could always leave it at home for the Disney trip and just take my Kodak. It does take great pictures, but doesn't do all the things I need it to do outside of Disney World.

[nige_buddy]

Adam, yes, I carry a water bottle in it. I have the flashgun in there as well. There's a top pocket that's good for extra batteries and other things, and a front pocket that's good for memory cards and pen and paper.

[sam_thompson2]

Samsung cameras share the same mount as Pentax cameras. If Pentax does in fact get out of the DSLR business. Samsung might take over like Sony did with Minolta.

[xpiotiavos]

Samsung cameras are actually clones of Pentax cameras. the k10d and k100d were joint Pentax-Samsung projects, so you can get either camera with either a Samsung label or a Pentax label.

[stwrtertbsratbs5]

". . . Canon and Nikon are famous for making new bodies that don't work with some of their OWN lenses . . "

 

Actually, Nikon has a much better history of maintaining backwards compatibility. Even old AI lenses can be used on current DSLRs - though metering and AF are limited with some bodies.

 

Anyway, the industry is in the midst of a shakeout. So I'm staying with a dominant player. But perhaps my experience with IBM's OS/2 product has colored my decision. It was a great product that was backed by deep pockets . . .

[wendy_garrison]

While you guys are discusing the quality of camera manufactures and lenses, I still think I made a good choice with the Pentax. I can get lenes that are 20 years old and still put on it. I am so much of an amateur, that I won't be needing a lot of different lenses and for what I need it for, it will be perfect. I did buy the 70-300mm lens and that should suit my needs for football/soccer. If there is a different lens I should get to take low-light dance pictures, please let me know. The 18-55mm comes with the camera, so I will have that lens and the 70-300mm. Also, could you give me some suggestions as to what settings I could use for low light (if I am 20-30 ft away) and for long range for the football games (if I am 50-75 yards away). The football shots I will take before it gets really dark, although at this time of year, it is dusky at kickoff time. Thanks!

[James G. Dainis]

For both things, you should have 800 ISO set on the camera. For action shots you should use 1/500 shutter speed or faster. That also goes along with the lens you use. At 300mm with the with the focal lenght multiplier of 1.5X for your camera is equivalent to a 450mm lens. To avoid camera shake blur, the shutter speed should be equal to the reciprocal of the lens focal length or in this case 1/450 shutter speed. So 1/500 shutter speed or faster is what you use for the sports, both to freeze action and avoid camera shake blur. You should have an Action or Sports mode that you can set the Pentax to if you don't want to do it by hand.

 

800 ISO or even 1600 ISO may allow you to get some indoor shots even with the slow f/4 and f/3.5 lenses you have. If not, then you are going to have to get another lens with a larger aperture opening, perhaps around f/1.8. You should be able to find a normal 50mm, f/1.8 lens for a very low price.

 

You should get closer at the game. The angle of view of 300mm equivalent of 450mm is 5.3 degrees. At 75 yards, a 6 foot high person will look about 1-3/4 inches high on a 4x6 inch photo.

[xpiotiavos]

"To avoid camera shake blur, the shutter speed should be equal to the reciprocal of the lens focal length or in this case 1/450 shutter speed. So 1/500 shutter speed or faster is what you use for the sports, both to freeze action and avoid camera shake blur."

 

Don't forget she's got a stabilized setup ;). Wendy, You should be able to get clear shots at shutter speeds of 1/250th sec or lower if you're lucky, although at that speed, the motion of your subjects will be blurred. The old rule of thumb, like James said, is that you should set your shutter speed to at least 1/(focal length). In other words, if you have your kit lens set at 50mm, you need a shutter speed of at least 1/60th sec (because no camera will let you set 1/50th sec). But that's just a general rule of thumb that's still around from the film days. It's not definitive. I frequently get perfectly sharp pictures from my 50mm prime lens with a shutter set at 1/30th. It depends much more on the way the camera handles and how steady your hands can be (you'd be surprised at how steady you can be with a little practice--read up on the technique online). And then of course some people are just freaks of nature and have rock solid hands. A good friend of mine borrowed my camera in Africa and took a very sharp (for the kit lens) picture at 28mm and a shutter speed on 1/6th of a second--WAY below the 1/(focal length) rule. I posted a 100% crop of the image at the bottom of this post.

 

depending on the lighting, you may get away with an ISO lower than 800 for football games, but just make sure you've got (as James said) AT LEAST 1/500th sec shutter. 1/750 or 1/1000 would be better.

 

But PLEASE don't let us tell you how to expose your pictures. You're the photographer now ;). go out and practice and get to know your gear.

 

 

for dance recitals, you'll probably want a good prime (i.e., fixed focal length) lens with a max aperture of at least f/2.8. I bought an old (we're talking 1970s) manual focus 50mm f/1.7 for about $20 on eBay that I absolutely love. The picture I posted of the singer and drummer earlier was taken with that lens. The manual focus can get frustrating sometimes though, so you might want to get one with autofocus. They're a bit more expensive though.

[wendy_garrison]

Thanks again----I just wanted some suggestions on what settings to use. This way I can play around with them and get the setting I like. I needed a place to start! This is something either I am misunderstanding or just not getting. People in motion will be blurry in action shots? I don't have that problem with my kodak (unless it is from my hand moving). I want to be able to freeze the action---is that going to be possible and do I need a different lens and/or setting? In other words, if my son is playing football and does the kickoff, if I am standing near the sidelines (on the other side of the fence) and snap the picture, will his legs and arms be blurry or clear? Also, if my daughter is doing a piroutte in ballet, will she be a blur? Thanks---sorry I am not getting this---I'm still reading on the internet to get started on learning before I get the camera!

[wendy_garrison]

I checked out ebay for a fixed 50mm lens with a minimun aperature of f/1.7 and found one for two hundred plus. There were none used at this time. I'll keep looking, though. Dance competitions start up in March. Are there any national classifieds that sell photography equipment? Do you think I would find one in a pawn shop? I have never been in a pawn shop, but there is supposed to be a really nice one about 30 minutes away. They have a lot of new and used things and advertise a lot during the Christams shopping times.

[xpiotiavos]

The general rule for football is that you need a shutter speed of at least 1/750th of a second. That SHOULD freeze any motion that you're wanting to capture. However, you might be able to get away with a shutter of around 1/500th of a second and still get good detail in his face, although his foot and the ball may be blurred a bit. I took the picture I posted of kicker at 1/750th, I think.

 

With those kinds of shutter speeds, depending on the lighting, you'll need a fairly wide aperture and a fairly high ISO setting in order to get a proper exposure.

 

Search for "Pentax 50mm" on ebay and you should see quite a few listings for manual focus lenses under $50. Don't get worried if you see a few high prices--there are always people who try to charge WAY too much, and every now and then there are people dumb enough to pay that much for them. I did a complete auctions search for the SMC-M 50mm f/1.7 (the lens I have), and they've been going for anywhere from $30-$45 dollars. Doesn't look like there are any active auctions for that lens at the moment, but there will be soon, so keep looking.

 

Things you need to make sure of before you buy an old manual 50mm lens: 1) make sure it's a genuine PENTAX lens. It may be listed as Asahi Optical Company or Takumar, but those are the same as Pentax. If it's not pentax, don't bother. it will be junk. 2) make SURE that the lens has a Pentax K-mount. If you get something besides that, you'll need an adapter to use it on your k100d. 3) as always, make sure the seller is willing to take returns.

 

other random facts: the SMC-M 50mm f/2 is the cheapest ($10-40) and most widely available, but it's not as good optically as the others (it still has better optics than any zoom lens, for the record).

 

the SMC-M 50mm f/1.7 is a bit more expensive ($20-$50) and a little more hard to find, but it's absolutely fantastic optically.

 

the SMC-M 50mm f/1.4 is one of the best prime lenses ever made (by any manufacturer), but it tends to go for over $200 on eBay.

[wendy_garrison]

I found a SMC m50mm f/1.7 lens on ebay for $9.99, but it comes with a much older Pentax camera and the person said they have been using both for over 20 years. If the lens is in great shape, that's a deal. I can always let one of my kids use the camera with film.

[wendy_garrison]

I found a SMC Pentax M 1.4 50 mm lens, manual focus for SLR film camera with Vivitar UV haze 49mm lens w/both original caps on EBay. Seller says they are in excellent condition. Doesn't say how old it is. It is selling for $9.99. Is that a better lens than the SMC M 50mm f/1.7 lens? And, would it do the job for the dance recitals in low light w/no flash? Thanks!

[James G. Dainis]

The dance photos you posted look like they need about one or two stops more of light. The Kodak you used was most likely f/2.8. The f/1.4 would give you those two more stops.

 

F/2 lets in twice as much light as f/2.8 and f/1.4 lets in twice as much light as f/2. F/1.4 lets in four times as much light as f/2.8.

 

F/1.4 is just about the limit on aperture openings. I have an old f/1.2 lens but that is rare and wouldn't let in much more light than f/1.4. F/1.0 would be the final limit, the aperture opening would be the same size as the lens.

 

 

The larger the aperture opening for a given focal length the larger the lens has to be. You may see a photogrpher with a really large lens and assume that it is a long zoom and really magnifies the image. You would be surprised to learn that it is a 300mm lens like the one you have. If you look through his viewfinder the image would be the same size as what you see through your camera with the 300mm lens, only his view is brighter. (I am ignoring the focal length multiplier for this arguement.) His 300mm, f/2.8 lens has to have glass twice the diameter or your 300mm, f/5.6 300mm lens. The bigger the glass and aperture opening, the more light is let in to the camera sensor/film.

[James G. Dainis]

Why you need fast shutter speed for sports. If a baseball pitcher throws a ball at 80 MPH to home plate 60 feet away, it is travelling at about 120 feet per second and takes about 1/2 second to go from the pitcher to the catcher. If you set the camera to 1/2 second shutter speed and press the shutter at the moment that the pitcher releases the ball, the shutter will open and stay open for the entire time the ball is going from the pitcher to the catcher, and then close. The ball will record as a long streak on the film/sensor, a 60 foot long streak in the photo. If you set the camera to 1/4 second shutter speed, the shutter will stay open from the time the ball leaves the pitcher's hand until it is 1/2 way to the catcher. Now you have a 30 foot streak in the photo. Set to 1/8 sec and you have a 15 foot streak; set to 1/15 sec and you have a 7.5 foot streak.... set to 1/1000 sec and you only have about a 1.4 inch streak. That shouldn't really be too noticeable in the photo unless you are doing a real close up of the ball.

[xpiotiavos]

Wendy, if you can get an SMC-M 50mm f/1.4 in good condition for $10, consider yourself a thief. Best of luck to you.

 

And yes, you'll be able to get some absolutely outstanding shots of your daughter at dance with that lens. It's exactly what you need, and better than as I stated before, when it comes to the optics, that's one of the best 50mm lenses ever made. period.