tonybynum Posted October 11, 2007 Share Posted October 11, 2007 Derek, you said: "I love this statement; "One more thing, if you have a huge bank roll and a full time, well paying job, it makes building a photography carrier possible. . ." I would not call that good advise, unless you yourself is poor. I have yet to see a rich man blazing a trail up the Chattooga River. I have seen those people at the roadside parks." This is NOT the way to build a network, especially with people who do what you aspire to do. You dont have to kiss butt, but I suggest you keep an open mind about photography as a BUSINESS. We really are trying to help you get your mind around this matter BEFORE you get so frustrated that you quit it altogether. Keep in mind photography and photography business are two different things sharing only one aspect - an image. . . Trust the people on this site who are trying to help you, dont push them around in search of a short cut, the only short cut I can see in your approach is the short cut to failure if you ignore all that has been said here. Good luck my friend and if ever your in the glacier park area look me up. . . I'll show you what it takes to get the images, then we can spend the next WEEK trying to figure out how to make money. . . . Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DickArnold Posted October 11, 2007 Share Posted October 11, 2007 Derek. Read my bio. I got into photography late in life and quite by accident. The only way I could generate cash flow was to do weddings. I branched out into other things and did newspaper work to supplement my business income. Working for the paper and doing weddings really sharpened my skills. But--I worked my butt off at an advanced age and made less than a third of what I made in the real job that I retired from or what I got later from consulting in my former field. I enjoyed it while it lasted but the photo work got too much for me. I came to my photo business with good marketing and business skills and had years of dealing with people and influencing their behaviour. These skills are more important than photographic skills IMHO. The other photo job opportunities came after I developed a name for myself in the community doing mostly weddings and having a photo byline in the local paper. I don't know how you can jump directly into making a living from shooting wildlife. I have sold some wildlife pictures but they have very few and far between. I learned a long time ago that the only thing I can speak about is my own experience. Take it for what you think it is worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derek_thornton Posted October 11, 2007 Author Share Posted October 11, 2007 Tony, you said; "This is NOT the way to build a network, especially with people who do what you aspire to do. You dont have to kiss butt, but I suggest you keep an open mind about photography as a BUSINESS. We really are trying to help you get your mind around this matter BEFORE you get so frustrated that you quit it altogether. Keep in mind photography and photography business are two different things sharing only one aspect - an image. . . Trust the people on this site who are trying to help you, dont push them around in search of a short cut, the only short cut I can see in your approach is the short cut to failure if you ignore all that has been said here. Good luck my friend and if ever your in the glacier park area look me up. . . I'll show you what it takes to get the images, then we can spend the next WEEK trying to figure out how to make money. . . . Tony" Come on man, you dont see the negitivity in that? What you are saying is that because I am not wealthy and have a great job I should not even bother. If all photographers have that sort of snoby attitude than being a part of your network is not what I want. I will defend myself just as you would, in person or on he net. You guys dont have to tell me the frustrating parts of becoming of photographer. To me this is a hobby first. I can finally show friends and family what I have seen on my treks. If I can make some money on the, great. It would be even better if I could quit my day job. Nothing to get frustrated over. I guess I was kinda looking for, set up a pbase account and post all your shots. Or, make up a portfolio and send it to some nature magizine. This is all I have. I am sure there are thousands of ways to go about getting noticed. I was hoping for someone to just point me in the right direction. Maybe pbase is a mistake, maybe it is the way to go? It is really a simple question and all I get is complicated answers. It is answers that would make someone like myself not want to get into this field. Maybe you dont want me in this field for some selfish reason? I am sure all the pros here will agree with you, chances are all the newbies will agree with me. Regardless, I will figure it out on my own. I will head to Barnes & Noble and get a book. If I fail at it, I dont care, I am still having fun. Thanks for the responses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlkphoto Posted October 11, 2007 Share Posted October 11, 2007 Derek wrote: Regardless, I will figure it out on my own. I will head to Barnes & Noble and get a book. If I fail at it, I dont care, I am still having fun. Thanks for the responses. ----------------- Derek, you won't "figure it out on your own." Nobody does. What you call "negativity" is a working pro explaining his reality. Lots o' luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spearhead Posted October 11, 2007 Share Posted October 11, 2007 I don't see any negativity in what Tony was saying. He's just explaining things. However, I think there is a real problem here. You ask what people did to get into things, and they told you it was about business and building a network, and then you say:<p><i>I guess I was kinda looking for, set up a pbase account and post all your shots. </i><p>If that's what you were looking for, you should have said it, and we could all ignore your post. It's really hard to see how you can say that after the advice given out above, it's the opposite of what people have been talking about. Also, if you want to display your photos for potential clients, you need your own web site, not some shared site. For downloadable images, you can use other sites, but you have to market yourself, as people have been trying to tell you.<p><i>Maybe you dont want me in this field for some selfish reason? </i><P>Are you kidding? People are trying to help you and this is what you say?<p><i>I will head to Barnes & Noble and get a book. </i><p>Find something fun to read, a book won't build a business. You are much better off networking with people in the business, which is what we all thought was happening here, than reading a book.<p><i>If I fail at it, I dont care, I am still having fun.</i><p>Maybe this explains the unwillingness to listen. Music and Portraits Blog: Life in Portugal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Laur Posted October 11, 2007 Share Posted October 11, 2007 Come, now, Derek. A lot of "newbies" also hope that actually using the camera well in a challenging area like wildlife photography is easy, or that some photoshop plugin will fix all of their exposure sins. When they get a complex, informed, and experienced answer to a deceptively simple question about perspective distortion, or variable aperture zoom lenses, or color calibration, or flash synch speeds... do they think that the experienced people answering their questions are just making it sound complicated on purpose, to annoy them? No. This is a classic case of not knowing what you don't know, or not <i>asking what you now realize you meant to ask</i>. <br><br> The reason you didn't get any simple pointers that will lead directly to "making a living off photography," which (you'll remember) was your actual question... is that there IS no such thing. Would you have been happier if we ran down all of the simple steps one might take, and THEN mentioned that, by the way, they aren't enough to get the job done? If it were as simple as putting up a gallery on pbase or flickr, etc., then there would be half a million professional nature photographers. But the reality - which I for one thought I would do you the FAVOR of getting right to, no BS, no artificial self-esteem boosting - is that there is no "living off photography" without running a business. We focused on that first so that you can, right then and there, decide if perhaps what you're really after is a way to maybe recoup some of the costs of something you love to do, but keep it as the hobby that it is - and, as it turns out, must be - for the vast majority of people who give it a try. Read your OWN comments in this thread, in the context of the subject that you chose to post it under, including your choice of the business forum as a place to post it. Now notice that only in your most recent comment did you indicate that your heart wasn't set on being in the business, per se. Can't you see how the context of this entire thread - as started and continued by you - has produced exactly the results it should have? <br><br> Your primary mistake continues to be thinking that you asked (in your words) a "really simple question" to which you've received complicated answers. But you asked one of the most complicated questions that can be asked in photography (how to make a living from it), and got gracious, patient answers. Here's what I hope you'll do: print out a copy of this thread, fold it up, and put it somewhere that you'll forget about for the next ten years. Then, in October of 2017, read it again right before you respond to some young enthusiast's question to YOU about how they can make a living in photography. By then, you'd probably have a hard time telling the difference between your own answer to that person, and the things you're hearing here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DickArnold Posted October 11, 2007 Share Posted October 11, 2007 One last thought. Photography is mostly a service business where you are supplying a product to a buyer. It requires some subservience to your customer's needs and an attitude toward dealing with people that you have not displayed in your replies to those who took the time to try to help. Whether you are selling wildlife photos or weddings this is a service business and your customer needs to come first if you intend to succeed in almost any endeavor. For a good book I would recommend Dale Carnegie's "How to Win Friends and Influence People". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonybynum Posted October 11, 2007 Share Posted October 11, 2007 Well said Matt! I hope Bob keeps this thread around for future reference. I hope he now does not think he's being ganged up on, but I was thinking the same thing, print it, hide it, and in ten years read it again. . . I hope there's a lesson in this for Derek. . . . First, there's a lot of good people out there willing to help. Dont look a gift horse in the mouth. . . BTW, I have offered for years, to all the young photographers who ask for help, my field time, just as I did to Derek, and to this day only one person ever has taken me up on it and he and I now are best friends and he's on his way to a successful photography business . . . I think one day with an successful photographer is worth a year in school and no amount in books . . . I tried and still do, to get time with successful photographers - it does not happen very often and to this day I've never been offered field help - ever, in fact I've never heard of another ever offering it to anyone - eveyone I ever asked, the best in the business always told me that they shoot alone or they teach a class that I could attend. When I was younger, I would have trekked across america if someone would have offered their personal field time to me. Heck, I'd still do it today if given the right opportunity! Young people these days I think want it all now, and mostly miss understand the value of time. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles_Webster Posted October 11, 2007 Share Posted October 11, 2007 Derek, you wrote: "I guess I was kinda looking for, set up a pbase account and post all your shots. Or, make up a portfolio and send it to some nature magizine. This is all I have. I am sure there are thousands of ways to go about getting noticed. I was hoping for someone to just point me in the right direction. Maybe pbase is a mistake, maybe it is the way to go? It is really a simple question and all I get is complicated answers." You can go ahead and do what you say, and unless you have the skill to make people want your pictures you will be just like the other thousands of pbase users who are doing exactly the same thing. No one buys nature pictures from amateurs with 6 months experience, unless they are a friend or a relative. You say "it's a really simple question..." No it's not. There is no easy way to get where you want to go, from here. If you can't accept that plain truth, you should seek elsewhere, because that's the only truth you get here. If you are serious about learning, I would start by joining several of the stock sites and seeing what sells, and what is missing from those collections, then go spend a year or two shooting nothing but that, then show those pictures around to the agencies. There is no easy way. <Chas> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonybynum Posted October 11, 2007 Share Posted October 11, 2007 Hey derek, I have come up with an idea. Now that I have a better understanding of your aptitude, and your motivation, I think it would be wise for you to check out the Rocky Mountain School of Photography. Here's a few options that you might be interested in. . . Rocky Mountain School of Photography Their mission is to provide students with top-notch instruction and a supportive environment that helps them achieve their goals as photographers-either as beginners, avid amateurs, or aspiring professionals. Photo-Seminars Online An online virtual classroom. Created in 1998 by Media West, the Photo-Seminars.com web site today attracts over 20,000 visitors per month. The company has been in business since 1972. Joe and MaryAnn McDonald Wildlife Photography Wildlife photographers Joe and Mary Ann McDonald specialize in closeup and dramatic action photography. They offer some of the most exciting, fun, and rewarding photo workshops and photo tours anywhere. New York Institute of Photography NYI offers a variety of courses in photography and videography - all carefully designed to be mastered at home. Santa Fe Workshops The Santa Fe Workshops is a year-round educational center. In 1999 they celebrated their tenth year of providing winter, summer, and fall workshops covering a wide range of topics in black-and-white and color photography as well as year-round digital imaging programs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jordan2240 Posted October 12, 2007 Share Posted October 12, 2007 Derek, I can understand your frustration. Other than Dick Arnold's bio, you've gotten very little feedback on how anyone actually started making money off of photography. I understand the desire to point out the pitfalls, but c'mon guys, couldn't someone just simply state "well, I started taking pics for parents at soccer games because my son played, and after initially giving them away, I got enough encouragement to prompt me to start contacting youth sports organizations and schools in the area, etc. etc." Or "I went to college for photography and got hired by a small newspaper in the midwest, then got a big break when I took pictures of so-and-so that became national headlines, etc. etc." I'm just a rank amateur who actually does very little photography lately, so I can't help you Derek, but I'm sure there are those out here who could if they would simply answer what was asked. My encouragement would simply be this, if you have a passion for something, then you possess one of the most important elements of success. Everything else can be learned. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jordan2240 Posted October 12, 2007 Share Posted October 12, 2007 Derek, Don't know if any of these folks are nature photographers, but you might get some answers from the interviews page on photo.net. Thought I'd copied the link, but apparently didn't. You can find it on the home page of the site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonybynum Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 "My encouragement would simply be this, if you have a passion for something, then you possess one of the most important elements of success. Everything else can be learned." Well said. Please stick with me here. . . . It's clear that some people understand the question differently. The question, in my view, was well answered by experenced people who were thoughtful enough to lend a hand to an interested spectator who we dont know. It will do little good for 1 or 100 people to tell a story about how they started. Every story is different, unique and usually very particular to the person or individual; there is NO starting point, there is hardly ever a point where one says do this or do that or I did this or I did that, it's a process and it takes time and dedication, and some luck. Just start shooting, learn about light, and learn about the business, spend your time around photography and the people who make it a living, and in time it will come together for you, if it's meant too. I'm sure there are ?cookbooks,? but at the end of the day, this trade is difficult but unique in that there are possibilities for growth and it uses basic yet critical business systems coupled with artistic and technical skills . . . it's a tough business, it takes most people years and years to make it, and through the process, lots of time, talent, and money. If I were to tell you again, one critical part of this business is a network and marketing you would just say, "NO, I want to know how to make money, don?t tell me about that that marketing and network stuff, tell me how to get published, or how to sell images." The single best advise I have for you now is join a club, or go to a school like rocky mountain photography, don?t try to do this completely on your own, but do spend the time it takes to learn and to find your own way. OPEN YOUR EARS AND OPEN YOUR MIND. . . Jump in with both feet and you'll make if you really want it. Oh, if you want to get published, write your own book or magazine, that's the easiest way. Build a blog, or a website or a local flyer, start small, start at home, build your net work or forget it! I know youre thinking what a bunch of philosophical gobbily goop. . . well before I sign off, let me tell you a little story that happened to me this weekend, and it?s happened like this before, maybe it will enlighten you as to how to get into this business. I traveled about 200 miles, pulling a boat ? I don?t have to remind you that gas is well over $3.00 per gallon, and my pickup as over a quarter million miles on it and its only 7 years old - you do the math! I arrived at one destination in the evening to shoot wildlife, so I dropped the boat along side the road and entered an area where my subjects frequent. Captured a few shots before the light was gone, hooked up the boat, drove another 50 miles and camped (no hotels where I went, you have to camp). Got up at 4am launched my boat, speed off in the dark to another remote location, spent all day climbing and hiking and shooting. All day I did not see another human track, not one! To me, that?s honest pleasure! I decided at about 2pm to take a nap. So, I took off my pack, secured my photography gear so it would be safe from the wind or an earth quake or a grizzly bear or whatever, and fell asleep. When I woke up, I shook off the cob webs and looked around expecting to see nothing but wide open mountains. . . But in the midst of looking around, I see a HUMAN, a person that is looking through binoculars at me. I looked back at him and waved. Later we met up, turns out he?s publicist for a magazine company, now he wants to see my work. . . It was purely happen-stance, luck, or being in the right place at the right time. . . or was 20 years working hard? That?s how you do it my friend, and that?s why you?re not getting what you expected, because this is a very unique business. I?m not telling you to go fall asleep in some wilderness area and but I?m saying you have to, JUST DO IT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonybynum Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 Update, just got an email from the guy after my last post this morning, he's offered to take me out, with his boat - thereby freeing me from towing mine - the next time I want to go out. . . there ya go, building a network . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick_m. Posted October 16, 2007 Share Posted October 16, 2007 Can I offer another take on this. You asked the question "Do you have any good advise to give someone starting out in nature photography?" I very much appreciate the responses you got from some very knowledgeable people. I hope you know Matt just how good this advice is. Maybe you are asking the wrong question. Perhaps the question ought to be "how do I make a living in photography". After you answer this then you can consider becoming a specialist. I sense in your question that you have to earn a living. If this is true it might be very hard to start out in something as esoteric as nature photography. Why not do it all? I started out as a photojournalist for a newspaper. I shot everything from society events to traffic accidents. From Sports to the winner of the 4H hog contest. I learned to think on my feet and I truly bonded with my camera. One thing photojournalism teaches from day one is to be result oriented. You HAVE to get the shot. It has to be good. And it has to be on-time. So then what happens is that you begin to meet people. I was photographing an event years ago and a nice old lady was shy of having her picture taken. I said to her "Don't worry, I have to do this right or I will get fired." It made her laugh and she hired me for a large family reunion. This led to more business......You get the point. In a couple of years I had discovered that I like portraiture. I especially like kids and the elderly. (the easy ones I know) As I began to get more and more business I began to do less with the paper and more on my own. What a life. Artwork for a gallery one day and a calendar for a tattoo parlor the next. Pretty soon you have a good business going and that will lead to the opportunity to specialize. And it will be a lot easier to show your nature photos if you already have a good reputation as a working pro. You will have met the movers and shakers along the way. The absolute best advice you got above was to make a key decision. Do I want to be a photographer or do I want to own and manage a photography business? Rest assured that If you want to be self employed in this business you need to have what I call six-month vision. I am planning how I am going to make my monthly ante in April through June right now. Every day I plan time for networking and prospecting. I count the money every day. You must be a charmer, a salesman, tax man, porter, janitor, driver, teacher, computer technician and when you are done with that you can take some pictures. I want to sign for one last thing. Take every seminar and workshop you can. I know tons of talented photographers who have "learned how to do it". And they plod along. When I go to the seminars my fellow students are frequently the cream of the crop. I was at one seminar when I noticed a woman sitting in the back in sunglasses. I couldn't believe SHE was there paying a couple of hundred bucks to learn from someone who probably would have paid for her autograph. If you want to know which of the new folks are likely to make it there are three sure signs. First the take making pictures seriously. They as questions of other working pros about how to make great shots and pay attention. Second they never forget that professional photography is a business, usually fairly small, that must run at a profit every week and that it is the photographer who is responsible for making it profitable. Last they respect all aspects of this art form. Great portraitists are passable nature photographers. Great nature photographers are good product photographers. And so on. They may not prefer to do a wide variety of work and may have achieved the success in their specialty to support themselves doing what they love. But if you look at their body of work you see pretty quickly that they have mastered the fundamentals of all aspects of this art and are first and foremost, good photographers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonybynum Posted October 16, 2007 Share Posted October 16, 2007 Great post rick! I really like the last paragraph. . . Good advise. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonybynum Posted October 16, 2007 Share Posted October 16, 2007 another update, a magazine editor just saw a shot that I posted on a website and called me today, we struck a deal over the phone for me supply photos for his magazine. . . as well, we are doing a trade deal for some equipment. . . networking . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonybynum Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 Derek, you still reading this post? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonybynum Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 Update, a friend of mine just sent me a rare national georgraphic photocall, it's got a quick turn around, but I have the shots so I'll send them in, who knows. . . networking. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonybynum Posted October 28, 2007 Share Posted October 28, 2007 Derek, in the tradition of helping other photographers be more succesful, and if youre still lerking, check this link out, it's maybe a "softer" more gental way of saying, IT'S ALL about business. . . maybe you can get something out of it. . . Good luck, http://danheller.blogspot.com/2007/02/photo-marketing-isnt-about-pushing-its.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clyburn Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 I'm not sure if anyone is reading this thread anymore, but I just stumbled across it and actually registered for this site because of this particular thread. I only got into photography a few months ago, after resisting it for years (long story) so I'm not qualified to answer this question. Like I said I'm not a photographer, though I do wear many other hats in the art field, primarily as a potter and sculptor and graphic designer, a sometimes painter and one day maybe even a photographer, who knows. All that said, I registered here and am making my first post in this particular thread, because I have never seen such an open exchange of advice anywhere else for any other medium. Not that it doesn't exist, I just haven't seen it. The advice here is some of the most solid I have ever seen and doesn't just apply to photography, but any art business. I spend about 30-40 hours a week working on marketing my art, and only about 10-15 hours on actually creating it. Not to mention my 40+ hour a week day job as a graphic designer. I think people are so used to instant results with the 'net these days, and our society has become so fast paced, that people tend to forget that the best things in life come slowly and with great effort. If you want to make a living making art of any sort, you have to love it like life itself, or you will get burned out in the effort to make money off of it. Being financially successful in art is three parts hard work, one part luck and and one part talent. Mostly hard work though, learning the craft, marketing, networking, etc. I've known some successful artists who were decent artists but phenomenal businessmen, and I've known some very broke artists who oozed talent and skill, but were horrible businessmen. So anyone reading this thread, head the advice of the posters before me, and work hard at the business side of your art, it is the only realistic way you can make a career out of your passion. If you don't follow the advice, and wait to be discovered, then you will more often than not wind up as another starving artist. So, again, thank you to everyone for the phenomenal advice posted here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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