135 will outlast medium and large format

[craig_sander]

I don't want to start a fire fight between film users, but I've heard a couple

times (in the last couple weeks), people saying that medium and large format

film will survive longer than 135 film.

I strongly disagree.

 

First, there are many many more films available in 135 than there are in medium

or large format. Thats a fact.

Second, there are less people now (and then) who shoot in medium and large

format.

Third, I still see many people using point and shoot film cameras. Those

cameras are usually digital and 35mm film cameras. You don't see point and

shoot medium or large format.

Fourth, disposable cameras are still a big seller. Go to any drug store and ask

if they still sell those buy the dozen each day, and they will say "Yes".

But they don't make disposable medium or large format cameras.

 

35mm film has and always will be the choice of the masses when it comes to

shooting on celluloid.

[jeffery_pool]

Even whilst unemployed, I found better things to do than talk about the death of film formats on the internet...

[thomas_hardy1]

Hmm.... no point & shoots beyond small format? Are you sure?

[aeaster]

And what, pray tell, does a photographic artist care about the what the choice of the masses is or is not? 35mm WAS the choice of the masses and they recently shifted en bloc towards silicone-based photography.

 

Medium and large format will continue as long as there is a market for the product.

[JDMvW]

jeffery- some of us are not unemployed, just retired so have lots of time ;D

 

Andre- I'm not a big fan of silicone-based photography either--I find it too unnatural. I do, however, quite like silicon-based photography!

 

I suspect that specialty houses will still be making both 135 and 120 film for a very long time to come, but you probably won't find either in a Wal-Mart or Walgreen's after a few more years. No one here in the Midwest seems to still sell slide film except for the camera shops.

[craig_sander]

Jeffrey- you responded didn't you?

 

Thomas- quite sure. Go to the camera store and see if they make a pocket sized 4x5 or 8x10.

 

Andre- artists won't have the choice if they don't MAKE medium or large format film though will they?

[captjack]

I've been a shooter since the mid 60s and a pro since 75. I went through a real / formal apprenticeship with a commercial photographer so I learned the use of 35, medium & large format photography and which one to use for which type of assignment.

 

From what I see as a commercial shooter- digital has replaced 35mm in all aspects of it's usage. Quality DSLRs are superior to anything we ever had in 35mm, even Leica. And DSLRs have replaced the use of medium format for wedding and portraiture.

 

Medium format bodies with digital backs have replaced 4x5 cameras for all catalog work.

 

The only thing left is the use of medium format and view cameras for art photography. I loved my 4x5s but with the "distort" function in Photoshop I don't need the swings and tilts anymore.

 

As I converted from film to digital the first thing I sold were my 4x5s. Then then I sold my 35mm Nikon film bodies. But I kept all my older AIs Nikkor lenses because they couple/work on my D-200. The last thing I sold were my cherished Mamiya-6 bodies and their glass. They are the finest cameras I ever shot! I will miss shooting them for weddings and portraits but the D-200 (and my D-100 backup) do a great job in replacing them.

 

I did keep my 2- Mamiya-645s and the "serious" glass I have for them. If I have a client who needs a large digital file I shoot the assignment on Provia or Velvia and have a high quality drum scan made from the chrome.

 

I did keep my darkroom- serious color & B&W up through 20x24. I kept it because I still enjoy fine B&W printing and toning. I would shoot with the 645s and print from those medium negatives.

 

I think the last film will be B&W medium format 120 for the art photographers. And maybe B&W for 4x5s.

[captjack]

One thing more to add- I have a number of friends who are serious art photographers and a few of them have abandoned their medium format bodies and 4x5s and replaced them with full frame Canon EOS 1Ds bodies and glass and large format Epson printers set up with the archival black inks. With some of the profiles they are applying to their files to print from- the results are absolutely stunning.

 

And in the end we don't have chemicals, and especially depleted Fixer to dispose of....

[thomas_hardy1]

"Thomas- quite sure. Go to the camera store and see if they make a pocket sized 4x5 or

8x10."

 

Sorry bud, you just said point and shoot.

 

How about Holga for Med Format.

What about Fotoman? for 4x5, and 8x10

 

http://theonlinephotographer.blogspot.com/2006/06/new-large-format-ps-

cameras.html

 

And have you never heard of the Gowland Pocket View? Well that's the name of it anyway.

It might fit in really large pockets.

 

Oh well, gotta go.

[danielleetaylor]

Correct me if wrong, but Fuji and Kodak don't have separate sets of machines for 35mm, 120, 4x5, do they? They must coat large sheets then cut to size.

 

In that case, I don't think any format would out live the other, so long as there was some commercial demand to get a manufacturer or 3rd party to cut the size you want.

[captjack]

Taylor - in the end it wont be about making the film but which emulsions and which sizes are selling- it will be about the packaging and distrubution to potential markets. I can see where in the future the only way to get film, chemistry and paper as an art photographer will be through an online source.

 

I was a Kodak Dye-Transfer & Ilford Cibachrome printer for many years. All materials for both are no longer available. Many of the high quality fiber base B&W papers are no longer available, many of the films.

[ben_goren]

The fact of the matter is, *NO* graphic medium has *EVER* ``gone extinct.'' Not only do

artists still use film; not only do some still make daguerreotypes; not only do many still

paint with oil on canvas...a few still even use pieces of the burnt log from last night's fire

to scribble on the rocks that sheltered them through the night.

 

Will film continue to wane in popularity? Assuredly. Will it get so unpopular that the big

manufacturers stop making it? Certainly. But, when that day nears, a small -- perhaps

very small -- cottage industry will spring up, with artisans making ``Art Film'' for those

who still wish to express themselves in the medium.

 

And, you know what? They'll make it in every size, too. And the ones with talent and good

business sense -- filmmakers and photographers both -- will make a respectable (if not

luxurious) profit while having a heck of a lot of fun. Probably won't be very many, but

they'll be there.

 

Cheers,

 

b&

[jim philopena]

I wonder, if in the 19th century when Film was becoming available, were these same arguments made about the demise of Watercolor, Oil, and Solid Media artisans becoming obsolete. There would be no further need to sit for days to have one's portrait painted, chiseled or cast. Mere minutes where all that was needed. If there was an Internet then, I'm quite sure it would have occurred. All of those medium survived. The materials are still manufactured. It might be considered more than a niche market, if irritating TV commercials about discovering your hidden your art skills are any indication.

 

Several years ago, with widespread and casual access to the Internet, the doomsayers predicted the death of Amateur (Ham) Radio. While not as large as it once was, it is alive and thriving. Major manufacturers still produce high quality and advanced gear. Not dead. Thriving.

 

I think it is mostly impossible to predict human behavior on a general and global scale.

 

_"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."_ George Santayana

 

Have a great day.

 

Jim

[matt_needham]

"35mm film has and always will be the choice of the masses when it comes to shooting on celluloid."

 

I think the masses have clearly shown they intend to give up on film. Film will continue to be sold in whatever format to a few pros, artists, and enthusiasts. Choices will be less. Prices will be higher. The majority of the film I use for the rest of my life will be 4x5 or larger. I'll buy some 120, and almost no 35mm. Within 10 years 99% of point-n-shoots will be digital. Disposable film cameras will be replaced by cheap, reusable digital cameras.

[dalahorse]

Jack:<p>

Cibachrome is alive and well, being produced under the name Ilfochrome.<p>

Although a few B&W films and papers have gone away, many still exist and are doing quite well. I really don't see Ilford getting out of the film and paper business soon. They will almost certainly continue to produce quality products for at least 10 years, if not much, much longer. No modern digital camera will remain "modern" for more than 10 years. It's not intended to be a knock at digital, which is a fine medium. However, the "impending death of film" alone is no reason to switch to digital. Film cameras - especially large format film cameras - will continue on far longer than any individual digital camera will last.<p>Don't stop shooting your favorite format (whatever it may be) fearing that it will one day disappear.

[ilkka_nissila]

I still shoot a lot of 35mm film and intend to do so as long as it is available. I also shoot some 6x7. I don't see why the balance between 35mm and larger formats should shift all that much in time.

 

Yes, digital SLRs produce better image quality than 35mm film, in the sense that colors are more accurate and there is less noise, and there may even be a bit more detail in digital. But I like the traditional look of film images and that look is most obvious in 35mm images.

 

35mm film SLR cameras also are about as convenient to operate as digital cameras. In some ways they're more convenient since physical hardcopy backups are available without additional work. And the availability of lenses ... the lenses for film are available for lower cost and greater variety than for digital SLRs.

 

People have different concepts about what is high quality. Yes, medium and large formats are needed if you want more detail than digital capture gives, but IMO that is rarely a problem for me. There is already enough detail in modern 35mm film and a broad range of looks and characteristics in film is still available. For landscape photography medium and large formats are needed but operation is so cumbersome that most people don't bother. Especially since grain free moderate size prints can be obtained with digital.

 

So I think digital eats all film formats equally.

[craig_sander]

In ten years, 99% of the point and shoots may be digital.

And in ten years, all the disposable cameras may have memory cards instead of film.

But in ten years, digital will have expanded on the medium and large format fronts, and will have over taken their film versions as well.

So in my opinion, at that time, the only real survivor will be the one which has the most users NOW.

[randrew1]

Even though the volume is a fraction of what it was in 2000, the 135 format is far more popular than MF or LF. I would estimate that 135 is declining at a steeper rate than the other formats. 135 might shrink to less than MF and LF some day, but by that time, the economics of film manufacturing will be completely different.

 

135, MF, and LF films share the many of the same emulsion layers, but they have different supports. MF and LF have pelloid backings to control curl. MF support is thinner than 135 while LF support is thicker.

 

It is possible to use the same support for 135 and 120 formats (K-64 did this). 135 support would be too thick for 220 format. It would overflow the spool.

 

As of 2 years ago (when I was still at Kodak) the 135 format was still paying the bills. The vast majority of color still film was 135 format. In a typical production run, most of the film would be 135 format with the occasional roll of MF support added. The exception would be Portra where MF was more significant. If 135 goes, then MF and LF will be more expensive to manufacture.

 

One possible format for the very long term is motion picture film. This is likely to be around longer than still film. The 135 format has its roots in motion picture film and may one day return to the state where motion picture film will be about the only things available.

 

Meanwhile, I'm still betting I'll be able to celebrate the 75th anniversary of Kodachrome by shooting--and processing--a few rolls in 2010.

[thomas_hardy1]

I'm not worried. The eMotion e22 digital back fits all of my MF cameras. I just need to pony up the cash to buy one.

[craig_sander]

Thomas,

That link you posted was DEAD.

Holga?

I have to assume you were joking when you mentioned them as medium format point and shoot. That camera can only do more harm than good to the film industry.

And the Gowland cameras are anything BUT point and shoot.

I'm sure you realize what I'm talking about.

At least, I hope you do.

[thomas_hardy1]

Yeah I kinda messed up the link...you have to type cameras.html to the rest of the dead

link if that makes any sense. I'm having much trouble with links these days here on the

pnut.

 

If you have time, google "fotoman point and shoot". There will be many links. Also look

at the large format forum here on photo.net, about half way down there is a discussion

about the Fotoman45PS. The camera also comes in 8x10, and panoramic. But the key is

that you can't focus it.....hence point and shoot.

 

What, you've got no love for the Holga? Many people love that camera! Check out some

of the "art" created by the Diana / Holga. Look up the Krappy kamera contest or

competition. Look in the alternative , toy forum here on Pnet.

 

Also look at www.apug.org, you probably already know this but for the benefit of others,

it's a thriving site dedicated to film users. APUG=Analog photography users group.

 

 

Now the Gowland, I said it's a pocket camera. Sort of.

 

 

Poke around in the medium format, large format, and toy forums, ask questions. Those

guys love talking about this stuff. Be careful....that stuff can be very addictive.

 

I have a feeling you know all this but love to yank chains!

 

Peace and Love.<div></div>