Dim Lighting in a church, what shutter speeds to use

[michellecarter]

I am shooting my first wedding and I have done bridal sessions and engagement

sessions in the past, however never done the actual ceremony. I decided to just

go for it, and when I went to the church to do some test shots, I found it was a

very dark dim church. I don't have any experience with this type of setting

yet, besides a few shots for friends weddings. I am able to use a flash and I

have a Nikon SB-800 with a Lightsphere diffuser. What shutter speeds should I

expect to use and what ISO? I took some pictures that seemed to be the

brightest at 1/30th @ f2.8, ISO 400 and over exposed +0.3. But they are not

sharp at all. The subjects face seems blurry. Any suggestions?<div></div>

[dilley]

Taking photos at 1/30th shutter speed is a little slow. The flash will freeze some action, but people move (both the subject and your hand). Also, f 2.8 might not be a good enough depth of field for you: You have to be right on or things will be out of the depth of field.

 

I would suggest a tripod for some of the work, you should be able to stop your hand shake with the tripod. That will help you capture some subjects. Also, I would probably increase my ISO, and shoot at a different f-stop to increase some depth of field.

[andre_reinders]

Make sure your shutter speed is AT LEAST the reciprocal of your lens focal length. So a 100mm lens should be shot at min. 1/100 sec shutter.

 

Use a monopod if it helps.

 

Use a higher ISO if it helps, and if you are shooting digital, consider using a noise reduction software like Neat Image on shots using ISO 800 or 1600.

 

Consider using Vibration Reduction lenses - rent them if you need to.

 

The first wedding I shot was dimly lit and indoors - I shot ISO 1600, with Image Stabilised (rented) lenses, ceiling bounced the light (low ceilings) and processed with Neat Image software to reduce the noise.

[kaiyen]

Do you mean for the ceremony? Or processional/recessional?

 

If during the ceremony, there are actually a lot more still moments that can handle 1/30th than you might think. I would still find a spot with a tripod and go from there, but look for those still moments and get those. You can also crank ISO like crazy to get proper exposure (underexposure at high ISO is tough even for the best noiseware to handle, IMO) or to convert to black and white if you want to go handheld.

 

An IS or VR lens works, too, rather than a tripod.

 

If during the processional/recessional, you have no choice but to use a higher shutter speed, and let the flash do what it can for the background (which may not be much). You might be able to ask each couple to pause for a second before they march down the aisle (which won't work for the recessional, which is like a footrace sometimes). That has worked for me. But if I can't get them to do that, I just go up to 1/100 or more and get what I can. I also shoot closer rather than farther so that at least the flash light is nice and diffused.

 

hey! look! I'm giving advice! Now I gotta see if others agree...

 

allan

[omar_gabriel]

This is just a question but does that picture white balance look off? or is it me. is there any way you can rent a motion picture light kit and place it outside the church window giving a ray of light into subjects etc? maybe the church wont allow lights indoor but placing them outdoors through windows might not bother them.

[bdp]

Not sure how Nikons hold up to ISO 800/1600, but if using flash, F/2.8-4.0, ISO 800, roughly 1/40 - 1/60 (Tripod for slower)

 

If no flash, F/2.8, ISO 800-1600 and 1/50-1/60 and pray they hold still.

 

These are no flash, Canon 70-200 F/2.8 on 2.8 on a tripod.

 

 

 

Your biggest issue will be the pro/re-cessionals and movement.

[michellecarter]

I do have a Nikon 24-120 f3.5 VR lens. I didn't try it at the time because I didn't have it. I heard someone tell me this lens was no good. Is that true? It's ED glass.

 

I plan on using a tripod also, and just taking the camera off the tripod to get closer shots if needed. I was trying a slower shutter speed to try and get more natural light in and diffuse the flash, but bad idea if there is no natural light i guess.

 

I had the white balance on Auto because I was using a flash, and setting the white balance on flash still gave me too much yellow; and setting the white balance to incandescent with the flash gave me too much blue.

 

Thanks so much for all the info, it really helps out. I will have another chance to do more test shots at and before the rehearsal.

[kaiyen]

The 24-120 is good for what it is, but it's not a particularly sharp lens. Can you rent something like the 70-200?

 

Do you only have 1 body? If you can rent the 70-200, consider that having on one body and use the VR instead of a tripod. Then keep a more normal lens on the other body so that you can move up, with higher ISO. I think the 24-120 slows down at 120, so that lens is really sub-optimal as you zoom in. IMO.

 

allan

[picturesque]

First double check to make sure you can use flash throughout the entire ceremony and can move around. If you can, the exposure game plan can be different than if you can't use flash for certain parts and can't move around.

 

Based on the fact that this is your first time dealing with this kind of lighting situation, my first inclination would be to advise you to use a "safe" setting. If you can use flash, I'd use ISO 400, 800 if you think you can deal with any noise issues. Then use a bounce card instead of the Lightsphere, and f2.8 @ 1/60. Be sure your flash is set to TTL, not TTL-BL, and it is not underexposing. In your sample, it looks like the flash is used as fill only, plus the whole image looks slightly underexposed. This is why it didn't freeze your subject (looks blurry). With this setting, you can't expect to shoot subjects more than about 20-25 feet away, so if you are shooting the entire altar with wedding party from more than that distance, you will have to do something else because the flash will definitely not reach your subjects. I use Canons, but I am told that Nikons are OK to use at ISO 800 re the noise, and if you don't underexpose, that helps with noise considerably.

 

It sounds like you are using an automated mode, such as P, AV or TV. I would use manual camera mode and set things yourself, and use the flash in TTL, adjusting flash compensation (not ambient compensation--two different things).

 

The processional and recessional have different considerations. You might want to look up previous posts about this.

 

What camera and lenses do you have?

[michellecarter]

I have a Nikon D200 and a D70 backup, as well as a second shooter with a D200. No one around here rents lenses that I know of but I will check around to see. I have a tamron 17-55 that takes excellent sharp pictures, but it's not going to have enough range when I have to stand farther back. I plan on using both. I also have a Nikon 70-200 but it's only f4 and not as sharp.

[michellecarter]

Thanks Nadine. I can use a flash. Should I then point the flash up with the bounce card? Or directly at the subject?

 

I was using manual mode, not P and trying to figure out the best setting, but I guess my issue was using the flash for fill flash and not having enough light. I was using TTL BL also.

[picturesque]

A bounce card loses less light than the Lightsphere so you have more reach. You would point the flash with a slight tilt forward with a plain bounce card so that the majority of the light gets bounced off the card and not lost toward the ceiling, which is probably pretty high. Or a Pocket Bouncer would work, or Flip It.

 

When I am allowed to use flash during the ceremony, I usually go for a combination of flash shots and no flash shots. For the flash shots, I do use the "dragging the shutter" method, underexposing the ambient by a stop or so but still observing the handholding rule with my telephotos. For these, the flash is pretty much the main source of light but it doesn't look so flashy because the ambient is not that far away from the flash EV. I'm usually using ISO 800. I don't like to go to 1600, but I use a Canon 5D, which has pretty good noise handling. The flash shots are usually the ones that have motion, to take advantage of the flash's ability to freeze action. My telephotos are fast primes, so I try to use them wide open at 1/60 and 1/125th. If I can't and I'm maxed at ISO 800, I would tend to go for the tripod or monopod. I used to use manual medium format cameras and that really trains you to be in the right place at the right time, using a tripod and knowing when to shoot with long shutter speeds. So I don't really have any problems covering everything using tripods or one camera. But since you have a second shooter, have more than two zooms and can use flash and move around, I'm make full use of them. The 70-200 f4 on a tripod with your second shooter. You with the Tamron with flash moving around--or vice versa. I don't see a need to rent anything faster.

 

Perhaps you've seen and read the article at planetneil.com?

[kaiyen]

TTL BL - bad idea :-). It's doing calculations to balance the light, so it's not only fill, it's some mysteriously calculated fill ratio. Use TTL, and dial up/down as needed.

 

Point the flash up or slightly forward, with the bounce card doing the actual bounce. I'd point straight up, unless you really run out of power.

 

the 24-120 isn't going to be long enough, in my opinion, to shoot from the back. I'd almost suggest going with the respectable 70-200 f4 with a tripod from the back. It's not a _bad_ lens...but it's not the 2.8 VR either, as you know.

 

allan

[m_tt_donuts]

Since you have a D200, you don't have to worry much about shallow DOF as the 1.5x crop factor adds a lot of DOF over a film/full frame camera because you either need to zoom out, or step back to take the same picture either of which increases your DOF. With crop factors I like to shoot between F1.4 - F2.8, and with a full frame/35mm film I like to shoot people at F2.8 - F4.

 

Your white balance problem is that the church light appears to be lit by incandescent and your flash puts out white light. You're mixing up your lights. That's causing what's lit by the church to look orange and what's lit by your flash to be white. Your SB-800 came with coloring gels, one of which is orange for incandescent. You need to put the orange gel on your flash and set your cameras WB to incandescent, then everything should be in tune with each other. You need to put the "green" gel your SB-800 came with when the lighting is flourescent and you want to balance it with your flashes white.

 

I use the Lumiquest ProMax on the main flash and I personally use 2 slave flashes to add light. I think in this situation you're better with the Lumiquest as it can direct more of your flash forward or bounce it off the ceiling if it's short. Make sure you put in that orange gel if the church is lit with incandescent.