Nikon and the New EOS 1ds MKIII

[elliot1]

MJ,

 

I have considered the S5, but have never been convinced that the claims made by Fuji were totally legit.

 

A photo.net friend emailed this link to me which has some interesting info about the S5:

http://www.bythom.com/s5review.htm

 

Not having used it myself, I cannot make any comments one way or the other.

 

I think I will wait for Nikon (or Canon) to WOW me.

[kaiyen]

One random and not-to-be-inflamatory comment - a lot of the wedding folks shooting 5D's sure seem to wear them out a lot. I'm not sure if the prosumer body is more like a D80 than a D200, but I keep hearing about the issues with the body.

 

Hearsay only. Just making the point that Canon's efforts to roll out an alternative to the 1Ds for FF hasn't been a smashing success. I'm actually surprised at their lack of trickle-down strategy, to be honest.

 

IF a D300 is announced, and the only difference is the sensor (basically), then I'll go grab a couple D200's. but if they add more cross-sensors, that alone would be a BIG deal...

 

allan

[szrimaging]

Is this the possible sensor? <a href="http://www.dpreview.com/news/0708/07082012sony12mpcmos.asp" target="_blank">New Sony Sensor on DPReview</a>

[waltflanagan]

<i>

When Canon announced the original 1Ds back in the fall of 2002, the price tag

was $8000 and a lot of people speculated that the price tag for

full-35mm-frame DSLRs would quickly drop. As it turns out, the initial

price for the 1Ds Mark II in the fall of 2004 was also $8000, and it continues t

the 1Ds Mark III now in 2007.

</i><p>

Canon had no reason to drop the price because they had no competition. Don't want to pay $8000? What's your other choice? I bought a D70+18-70 in May 2004 for $1300. Today I can get a D40+18-55 for $515. Why? Because of competition from Canon and others.

[szrimaging]

Umm....Walt.....

 

D40 and D70 are totally different beasts. The D70 has a lot of features that the D40 doesn't. Not to mention target segment was different. Plus the D70 had competition in the original Digital Rebel.

 

And the pricing for a body aimed at the pro market will be a ton different than for the consumer. A better way to look at this may be the pricing of different generations of Leaf MF backs. Or the D1 to D2. Or for the D300, the 30D to 40D.

[waltflanagan]

Yes the D40 and D70 are different but look at your 30D to 40D comparison. You get more for the same price which is in effect a lower price. This wouldn't happen without competition. Intel used to be pretty slow with new chips until AMD had better chips a few years ago. Same thing plus the prices drop.

[szrimaging]

True, but once again, they are different markets. The D70 was aimed at the market that the D80 hits now. Really, that is what I should have stated to begin with. When the D70 came out, the total beginner/entry SLR user was expected to buy film. DSLRs were not aimed at a total beginner like the D40 is.

 

As for computer chips, look at the entry prices on the high-end chips. They are still a thousand+ dollars. Chipsets at introduction are still coming out at similar prices to what the previous generation came out at. Also, processors/chipsets have a much faster market speed than cameras. They go through their cycle much much quicker.

[sam_thompson2]

D70 was aimed at the Digital Rebel market. Nikon was focusing on the pro market. Nikon took the lead in the beginning of the digital wars with their D1 series of cameras. It was concentrating on the pro market which caused Nikon to fall back. Nikon didn't have a entry level body until the D50 which lagged behind the Canon in features. If people haven't noticed, features creep upward, not downward.

 

High end cameras like the Hasselblad don't even offer auto focus.

 

Compact cams have been getting features like GPS, WiFi, Live view, vibration reduction for years, digital crop, in camera editing, remote shooting, super zooms. The next feature that DSLRs will get is probably video. I suspect that face detection is also another possibility.

 

Also anyone else notice that Ellis is also in Tokyo this week?

[kaiyen]

I feel the D70 was aimed at the 20D (at the time), with no competition to the Rebel until the D50 came out. And if you look at how metering systems have been moved down from model to model, there is trickle-down. Also, see how the D2x weather sealing goes into the D200, and how similar the D80 is to the D200. And then how they are now using the same sensor from the entry-level D40x to the D200.

 

anyway. just a quick thought. Technology seems to trickle-down, but features are made available as you go up.

 

allan

[ilkka_nissila]

Usually features show up first on the top end camera of a manufacturer's line. Hasselblad is a different company than Nikon or Canon, these can't be compared.

[fourfa]

"When Canon announced the original 1Ds back in the fall of 2002, the price tag was $8000 and a lot of people speculated that the price tag for full-35mm-frame DSLRs would quickly drop. As it turns out, the initial price for the 1Ds Mark II in the fall of 2004 was also $8000, and it continues to the 1Ds Mark III now in 2007."

 

just to be a gadfly, $8000 in 2007 is equivalent to about $7250 in 2004 and $6900 in 2002 (according to BLS-CPI). So prices have dropped some, or to be precise Canon hasn't found it necessary to increase prices to match inflation and a falling dollar.

[christiaan_phleger___honol]

Actually, we only have to wait another 6 hours or so, Tokyo is ahead in days but behind in

hours.

[sam_thompson2]

"Usually features show up first on the top end camera of a manufacturer's line."

 

The 10mp sensor and the sensor cleaning mechanism showed up the Rebel Xti first. Consumer cameras have a shorter life cycle than pro cams. So you will often see features on consumer cameras quicker than on pro cameras.

 

The D70 was priced closer to the Rebel, the D100 was priced closer to the EOS 10D/20D.

[kaiyen]

Sam,

 

We're veering away here, but remember how old the D100 was at the time the D70 came out. I think the D70 was kind of in the middle. Perhaps purposely, since the D100 was getting so long int he tooth.

 

allan

[aaron l]

The Nikon Finland site is down and all the pages are being updated now...

 

http://www.europe-nikon.com/home/fi_FI/homepage/broad/catalog.html

 

My Finish is a little rusty...<div></div>

[szrimaging]

Not to mention, if you screw up a feature on a consumer camera, you won't get to bad of a backlash. It proves to be a good testing ground for certain technologies. I am sure the techs have put things into the D80/D40 that aren't in others, that might trickle up a bit.

 

That said, the Pro bodies do need the features that make them Pro.

[szrimaging]

NikonUSA seems to be working. But I can't pull any product pages from the UK site.

[ilkka_nissila]

Well, let's see. Body control aperture, multiple AF points, first really fast AF, 8 fps, extensive custom settings, first shown on F5. Then after a while some of these trickled down to F100.

 

D2X shows up with 11 AF points, 12 MP, etc. first high res Nikon. Then about 1 year after similar features show up on D200, and yet later in D80 and finally in the D40X. Sure seems that most of the time the high end models get the features first with Nikon.

 

Canon had a 16 MP sensor in their top of the line camera long before any consumer 10 MP model. The sensor cleaning thing is a fad. It doesn't really help.

[wj_lee]

When Nikon anounced Nikon d2x canon did one upmanship and brought out 1Dx Mk II. Maybe Nikon will do the same this time around although I can't really see how Nikon will manage that considering spec of 1Ds MKIII. One thing that's going for nikon is that they have far more experience with smaller pixel pitch with D2x.

 

With sony about to announce their new pro dslr also, digital slr market is becoming very exciting.

[anson_ko]

There is no competition in the pro DSLR area. IMO.

[derek_stanton2]

Allen,

Canon may be a leader in SLRs, but they are only a 'co-leader,' along with Nikon. And,

Canon's prominence at "the top" is only relatively recent. A camera-maker's professional

reputation is not born in five, ten, or even twenty years. Nikon's status goes back 50+ years.

For those with a longer frame of reference, it was Nikon (and Leica, Rollei, and Hasselblad)

that were THE chosen cameras of professionals. Whether or not Canon has taken spot 1a or

1b with the EOS system is of no consequence. Nikon isn't #1 in Japan now without having

first established their legacy much earlier.

[sam_thompson2]

"Well, let's see. Body control aperture, multiple AF points, first really fast AF, 8 fps, extensive custom settings, first shown on F5. Then after a while some of these trickled down to F100."

 

D metering, faster AF, computer capable back, wireless flash system were all introduced on the Nikon N90/N90s.

 

i-TTL, CLS, 8FPS, LBCAST sensor, and 11 auto focus points were introduced on the Nikon D2H.

[kaiyen]

Derk (just kidding - I don't mind when people get my name wrong),

 

I truly question whether Nikon's "legacy" is all that relevant since they captured Japan's DSLR market through their consumer models. I just don't think that buyers in that market are looking much past _2_ years ago. Forget 20 or 50.

 

Also, if people are buying Nikons in Japan because of their reputation as professional-quality equipment...again, it's the consumer models that are pulling Nikon up, and Canon still dominates the professional market. There is a point to those ads about all the white lenses at sporting events, and it's why, I think, Nikon hasn't developed the high-speed camera line much.

 

allan

[anson_ko]

Derek Stanton, Aug 22, 2007; 07:10 p.m.

 

Allen, Canon may be a leader in SLRs, but they are only a 'co-leader,' along with Nikon. And, Canon's prominence at "the top" is only relatively recent. A camera-maker's professional reputation is not born in five, ten, or even twenty years. Nikon's status goes back 50+ years.

 

 

With all respect. this story reminds me of GM, Ford and Chrysler. There were the top car selling automakers in the past. What's happening now in the last 10-20 years? Ford loses 35M dollars a day.

[hique]

Well... D3. The question is answered :)

 

Forget the MP myth. High MP count is nice, right. But It can be done anytime by anyone. High sensibility, good price and good features... that's the challenge.

 

I guess Nikon will sell the D3 like water since it challenges the 1D, 1Ds and 5D all in the same product with a nice price (actually it challenges the 1D and 5D more).

 

It will be a great challenge for both companies and it all just benefits us users.

 

Cheers.