To M8 or not

[michael s.]

Healthy skepticism is a good thing. I'm all for it.

 

My own eyes are neither sharp enough nor well enough attuned (unless an expert is standing by my side) to draw critical distinctions between prints from different cameras in most cases. Moreover, those distinctions with few exceptions are probably insignificant for my purposes.

 

But I tuned in late here to a post that seemed to take a potshot at a nameless character, so I thought it would be useful to fill in a bit of background.

[DB_Gallery]

Carsten Whimster wrote:

 

"I agree about the 5D and M8 having pretty comparable imge quality, and that the 5D has

better high ISO, but I also sold my 5D and all my Leica R lenses, and bought an M8. I have

not had much chance to regret it yet, and I am nearing 10,000 shots. The M8 just delivers

really nice files, right out of the box, and I find that they scale better than the 5D results,

so the difference in technical terms between the two is really very small."

 

This is very much what I find too. So since the M8 is smaller, lighter and less obvious, I

now find I use it more over my 5D's. And this stuff about M8 prints being better than 4x5?

 

I don't buy that. If you take the best 30x40 from your M8 over to John Fielder's new

Gallery in Denver and hang it next to one of his 30x40 prints, I am pretty sure you will see

just how much the 4x5 out resolves the M8 in print. I really don't care how good a printer

this guy is, B.S. is B.S.

 

And this mentioning of Guy? Isn't he a big enough internet hero-ego on Fred Miranda and

the Leica User forum? The man is a nice "guy" and does some great things in terms of

bridging the gap between those of us who do not have a direct professional relationship

with Leica ( which I do, but do not need to play it up on the internet ).

 

The whole internet hero thing is one of the strangest phenomenon of our modern times, I

would be quite embarrassed if I were Guy, but then, I do not post 5,000-15,000 times on

any one site.

 

My photos are what I want to be remembered for, not my internet hero status...

[Brad_]

Yikes, I was typing while Michael was posting - the result looking like I was implicitly

responding to his post. Not true. Michael's views are well reasoned and I totally respect

them - he's a friend who I enjoy talking to and hooking up. My post above was totally about

what Steve S said and the posts before that. Just wanted to make that clear...

[michael s.]

Brad, not a problem. In any case, I took no offense.

 

And I'm still all in favor of "healthy skepticism," my own post notwithstanding. :-)

[jackflesher]

>>> "...has found that M8 files print as well as 4x5 scanned film and better than any other small-format digital camera at sizes as large as 30"x40""

 

Pure rubbish. <<<

 

I agree, that is a ridiculous statement. Scanned 4x5, at least quality drum scanned 4x5 still edges out MF digital back capture from a detail standpoint IMHO.

 

(However, the latest generations of 33+ MP MF DB's are very good and maybe close enough to scanned 4x5 for some; they certainly more convenient at getting a high resolution digital file into your computer ;) )

[jackflesher]

PS: Notwithstanding my above comment, I will stand by my claim that the M8 file is capable of producing *stunning* 32" prints.

 

Cheers,

 

Jack

[andrew robertson]

"To compare two very dissimilar cameras based on image quality is a waste of time since

image quality is the same."

 

But it's not, and you are doing a disservice by misleading people into thinking that they

have identical image quality.

[geoffrey goldberg]

Another 2cents worth:

 

I second above comments on Guy's relationships with Leica. Jamie Roberts summary is

right on, and to my knowledge (having followed Guy's pathway for the past two years, in a

modest way) dead on correct.

 

I went and got a DMR and was amazed by the image quality. I ahve a 30" x 42" print on my

son's walls that looks like something from medium format. No way comparable to 35 mm.

 

I've only used the Canon 20D, and have little affection for the color rendition in that

camera. It works well enough, but something is just too flat for my taste. However, in high

ISO environments, it shoots well, focuses rapidly, and gets the AWB right, something Leica

just can't seem to get right.

 

But the M8....came after the DMR - as the larger camera just didn't suit my style. The M8 is

now used all the time, and nails shots that by rights it shouldn't get. It has a sensitivity

that can best be compared to medium format film. It makes no sense, the numbers don't

suggest that, but between the clarity of the Leica glass, and something in the porcessing

algorithms, its not just like anything else.

 

Can it make big prints? Yes. As good as 4x5? Gee, I'd doubt it, that really seems a bit of a

stretch, but it does things that are surprising.

[summitar]

I would love to own an M8, but it would the height of self indulgence in terms of other "must do" events coming up, mainly in the field of home maintenance. I am a pure amateur so an M8 would neither be a tx write-off or a source of income. I have been enjoying the "debate" on this and other threads. I like it when people get emotional about a camera. Question: do any stores other than megagiants like B&H keep an M8 in stock? It seems like it is a special order item in my neighborhood (King County, WA, which probably has more billionaires than anywhere else here in the land of Microsoft). I would love to handle one, or even induce them to let me take a shot in the store with my own memory card inserted. I can often do that in my local camera shops that have come to know me and love my credit cards.

[guy_mancuso]

Hmmm. Interesting and some very wrong comments here also. Thanks for those that

actually know the facts. let's clear the air first. I have a very close relationship with leica

but only after the purchases of the M8. I was also asked to be a beta tester and sign a NDA

which in reality i am not even supposed to say i am a beta tester but leica decided if i was

more comfortable being out there in public and saying i was it was okay with them. i do

NOT recieve any money from Leica for anything. I did just join leica on there Leica / Porche

Acadimie tour in Germany in which i did tour the factory and also had meetings with leica

which i had in the past at PMA. First off there really nice folks and really enjoy there

company. Now i did own the DMR and was in love with that system and what it could do , i

wanted to try the M8 system becuase we all hear the Leica m lenses are better than the R

lenses , well there right and after all the growing pains of the M8 inluding 2 SDS situations

i persoanlly had i stuck it out with the M8's and they have been a joy to use and the files

are very similar to the DMR but with better micro detail so i completely switched to the M8

and use it today with 2 M8's and 10 lenses as my primary commercial shooting rig. Yes it

has it's limitations on the long side and tilt and shift lenses and if i need a DSLR than i can

always rent one if I have the need which i have not so far.

 

Now i use the system because it works and works better than almost anything out there if

it said Kobalt for a camera name i would be using that. i just simply will use the best there

is and the name is meaningless but i also like owning leica for what it is and the people

behind it. Now i have been very focal about this system and worked really hard to get

everyone that owned a M8 to get working around it's initial issues and problems , if that

make me some internet whatever was described i could care less, i make no money from

the internet but i do like helping folks and getting them shooting so if i took on a

customer advocate role than that is my choice , love it or hate it makes no difference to

me. Like my work or not is also in the same category unless your paying me i could care

less what you think of what i shoot, my clients think better of me and pay me well to shoot

and at the end of the day that is the bottom line.

 

Now with regards to leica i am also helping them with firmware and upgrades and

suggestions to help them build better machines and tools for us and they do like my

suggestions and comments and such . i will continue to do that because i like having this

relationship and in the end it helps the end user, US. So if you want to piss on me for no

better reason than to do that than you have the problem , not me. But this place is a

absolute train wreck and some of you are guilty of causing that and it is a shame because i

remember when it was a nice place but it is only as good as it's members and if you guys

want to ride it into the wall than that is your choice but the issue is your not learning

anything and that is the real downfall of this place. All i see is bad info and misguided

comments. I personally would rather be positive and work the issues to make the tools we

use to be better and the photo industry to listen and make product of value to us the user.

Thanks and have a good day , no further comments are needed from me. Guy

[vivek iyer]

<i>let's clear the air first. I have a very close relationship with leica but only after the purchases of the M8. I was also asked to be a beta tester and sign a NDA which in reality i am not even supposed to say i am a beta tester but leica decided if i was more comfortable being out there in public and saying i was it was okay with them. i do NOT recieve any money from Leica for anything. I did just join leica on there Leica / Porche Acadimie tour in Germany in which i did tour the factory and also had meetings with leica which i had in the past at PMA.</i>

<p>

Guy, To clarify my reply to Doug Herr above- it was due to your own postings (either here or on the l-forum, i couldn't locate that particular post/thread) where you said, cryptically, that the 'relationship' between you and Leica, you will not expand on.

<p>

Thanks for your clarification here.

[ray .]

The critical issue seems to me that there is no competition to the M8 for what that particular

style of camera offers, which is essentially the <i>seeing window</i>. If you want that

viewfinder, which is hugely luxurious and functionally much more useable than what any

DSLR

I know of possesses, the only alternative to M8 is a discontinued RD-1. Since seeing is what

photography is, doesn't it make at least some logical sense to want the camera with the

biggest brightest clearest

window?

[doug herr]

"<I>Since seeing is what photography is, doesn't it make at least some logical sense to want

the camera with the biggest brightest clearest window?</I>"

<P>

It makes sense to me. What baffles me is the apparently widespread acceptance of really

crappy viewfinders. Do people not know anything better exists?

[ray .]

I'm afraid I'm baffled regarding a lot of things people accept these days. With regard to

photography, anyone doing it would ideally have some experience

using a good RF viewfinder (which in Leica's case is the absolute <i>best</i>

ever made), just as

they should have experience with putting their head under a cloth

and viewing an upside down image on the ground glass of a view camera, at least once.

[doug herr]

"<I>anyone doing it would ideally have some experience using a good RF viewfinder (which

in Leica's case is the absolute best ever made), just as they should have experience with

putting their head under a cloth and viewing an upside down image on the ground glass of a

view camera, at least once.</I>"

<P>

I'd add the Leicaflex SL viewfinder to this list as an example of how good an SLR viewfinder

can be.

[travis1]

"Since seeing is what photography is"

 

hip-shots make good photography too.