tom_eitnier Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 I just got off the phone with a known West Coast dealer and I asked him about finding me a certain wartime dated lens and in doing so I was told that Leitz wasn`t even making cameras or lenses in LATE 1944 into 1945, but that they were simply numbersused in or around that date, that most late wartime numberedIIIC`s and lenses were made AFTER the war? I`m sure Leitz has records and the serial numbers postedonline simply just state a year date, but what happened toLeica and the Leitz company as American troops entered the area in late April early May 1945? Germany was a shambles in 1945 and 90% of all production had come to a halt, but from what I`ve heard from collectors Leitzquickly jumped back into production with help from the US Army to supply the occupying forces with cameras and also start the exportto NYC and London WW2 historians I have been told that Leitz was spared by major Allied bomb damage (just like IG Farben) while the American`sand British KNEW that they would be using the company as soon as Germany fell What is the real story? What happened as the war came to a closein May 1945 and who can you write to get any delivery informationon your camera if this is at all possible? I looked at the Leica website and they have all but DENAZIFIED the entire Leicahistory, they don`t even say anything about the IIIC it jumps from like 1938 to 1954? PS; I`ve noticed that some collectors have verified that someLeica IIID`s and IIIC K`s and "stepper" rewind IIIC bodies and lenses went directly to the US Army, how did they do this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob F. Posted May 30, 2007 Share Posted May 30, 2007 I read that after Germany surrendered, The Americans went to the Leitz factory and demanded the plans for the Leica. Dr. Leitz opened the safe and handed them over. Some time later, the Americans came back and wanted to know why the cameras they made from these plans were not as good as real Leicas. Dr. Leitz told them that they could steal his plans, but not the skills expertise, and dedication to quality of his workers. I just thought that fit this thread somehow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l._david_tomei1 Posted May 31, 2007 Share Posted May 31, 2007 An interesting question that brings up many more regarding the fact that history has been rewritten and inconvenient elements have perhaps disappeared. According to Dennis Laney's book, there were 693 IIIc's produced in 1944, and 6788 in 1945; 3 250's in 1944 and 19 in 1945; 290 IIId's in 1944 and 11 in 1945. There were a few half-frame cameras produced in Canada in the 1950's with wartime serial numbers (357,151 - 357,224). The idea that all wartime cameras had numbers below 400,000 is conveneint but apparently wrong. Several sources indicate some cameras were produced after WWII with serial numbers below 400,000. For example, 353,801 - 354,000 correspond to Standards produced from 1942 through as late as 1947. There are II's and IIIa's with numbers below 358,650 produced between 1947 and 1950 according to Rogliatti and others. Similar lens production numbers are listed in several sources indicating that 28mm Hektor, 35mm and 50mm Elmar, 50mm Summitar and several long focus lenses as well as Visoflex lenses were produced in the very late years of the War. Although, there was a hiatus in production of the Hektor f/2.5 and Xenon lenses apparently. Regarding "denazification" of the history of many German companies, this is certain and clearly disengenuous at best. Equally disturbing is the fact that if you express any interest whatsoever in WWII Leicas having military or Nazi engravings, many step in asking why would anyone be interested in Nazi Leica's? Evidently, not only do some German companies wish to selectively ignore this period in history, but also individuals. Since I was a very young child, I have seen the photos of the many horrors of those years. However, when I wished to document the history of one of the cameras used to take some of those images, there was a flurry of strangely abusive and self-righteous indignation and accusations that preservation of such cameras (and the records of companies that produced them) was improper. Although I understand this attitude, I worry that it will result in a restructuring of history. After all, Leitz's K shutter design was clearly not done and put into production for the benefit of amateur photographers on Winter vacation. What seems to be clear from history is that Leitz was in operation through the 29th of March, 1945, when the American soldiers arrived in Wetzlar (reportedly at 10AM). It seems reasonable that Leitz production continued at some significant level through 1944 and into early 1945 and it was rapidly restored soon after war's end. It is also clear that Leica bodies were produced into the post-war decade with serial numbers below 400,000. Good luck. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom_eitnier Posted May 31, 2007 Author Share Posted May 31, 2007 Rob and David that was very helpful, thank you I`m in the process of acquiring a 1945? dated IIIC SERIAL #397xxx with a 3.5 50mm Meter Scale Elmar SERIAL #599xxx also 1945? Both are in an amazing EX+++/Mint- condition I`ve seen many "Wartime" era cameras (early and late) since I started collecting in the 1990`s but NEVER have I seen a late one that is in this good of a condition, it`s one of the cleanest I`ve ever seen with only some slight wear on the rewind knob (I will post photos here as soon as I have the camera) I`ve always been fond of the design of the pre 400000 series IIIC with the raised rewind lever, the Military versions are not important to me, but I was always interested in the K (Kugelager/Kaltenfest) cameras in the civilian modes Sadly I missed out on the last REAL IIIC K "Chrome" camera that was on ebay just a few days ago, (beat me out by a lousy $25!!!! boy was I angry) this camera WAS the REAL deal :( I`ve always wanted a Chrome K Shutter camera, while they are some of the rarest of all the wartime versions http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160120079408 Well, I can still dream can`t I? I guess from what David said acquiring a "Wartime" Xenon might be impossible?...I`ve seen them numbered so far into 530000 area(1939) So what I need to know is if ANYONE out there even has a 539000+ SERIAL numbered Xenon? I know it`s going to be a HARD search but an interesting one......... Maybe a nice "Red Curtain" with a matching year Xenon will be my next quest, along with a "late" coated Xenon for the fore mentioned camera? But, here`s the other question that was`nt not answered, where can you find out delivery information on your pre 1950 Leica? I`m curious to know where my camera went? Was it a PX camera, a GI "bring back" a German shop camera or an Export model to NYC or London? (the lens is matching year in meters, but who knows if that`s the original lens supplied with that camera?) Who can I write, ask etc.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christopher_a._junker1 Posted May 31, 2007 Share Posted May 31, 2007 This subject was discussed earlier on the forum, and my reading is that although American GI's entered Wetzlar, the Leitz factory was in the British sector. The War Reparations Board supposedly determined that Leitz was not of sufficent inportance to be seized as a war industry and therefore subject to reparation claims. No idea if this is accurate information. Immediate post war production camera bodies encountered quality problems in that it was not possible to do high quality chrome plating. Pitting and peeling of post war chrome plated body top/bottom plates and screws was a problem at least into late 1946. I am also curious as to any influence that may have come from the US Army as it was well known that General Patton was a regular Leica user. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
35mmdelux Posted May 31, 2007 Share Posted May 31, 2007 I worked in the IG Farben building in early 1970s and I was told that it was saved to house US Army headquarters V Corps. Many other buildings were saved and then used to house American troops. Telling the Nazis to take a hike was more deadly than telling Republicans to get lost. Hitler had the overwhelming support of his people once the war began and had early success stories. Only after losses began to rack up did people begin to disown him. The attempt on Hitler's life at a staff meeting came just under a year before the end of the war and the Generals saw the writing on the wall and attempted to assasinate Hitler to save their own skin. What is remarkable is that the Nazis thought that Allies would negotiate the end to the war. BTW, 550,000 American troops were lost in the war. Best - Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allen Herbert Posted May 31, 2007 Share Posted May 31, 2007 . Hitler had the overwhelming support of his people once the war began and had early success stories. Lets be really honest about all this. Folks are like lemmings, especially is they they think there's something to put in their pocket. Germam, English(invented the concentration camp concept), French, American etc........all the same. Hey, they were just doing as they were told....ha, does that thought ring a few bells. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allen Herbert Posted May 31, 2007 Share Posted May 31, 2007 English(invented the concentration camp concept The wifes and children of err the wicked, to ensure their good behavior.......the bad publicity from the English press put an end to it. Free and honest press....so, important. But is it still there? Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john_shriver Posted May 31, 2007 Share Posted May 31, 2007 Tom, you can never know "how much" you lost an eBay auction by. That's because it uses proxy bidding. $25 was just the "bid interval" at that price bracket. The winner might have had a top bid $800 higher than you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom_eitnier Posted May 31, 2007 Author Share Posted May 31, 2007 Thanks John for explaining that to me, next time I`ll bid $1,000 more :) HONESTLY I didn`t start this thread to talk about the nazi`s, Hitler or who invented the concentration camp concept....... REALLY ALL I WANT TO KNOW IS WHERE DO I WRITE TO OR WHO DO I CONTACT TO GET INFORMATION ON LEICA PRODUCTION DATES AND DELIVERY INFORMATION ON OR AROUND 1944/45? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allen Herbert Posted May 31, 2007 Share Posted May 31, 2007 HONESTLY I didn`t start this thread to talk about the nazi`s, Hitler or who invented the concentration camp concept....... That's what they they all said. They pleaded innocent... Of course you did not start this thread............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allen Herbert Posted May 31, 2007 Share Posted May 31, 2007 An example, for those with eyes to see, an ears that listen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom_eitnier Posted May 31, 2007 Author Share Posted May 31, 2007 Allen, yes I did start this thread didn`t you read at the top, why must you be so sarcastic, all I`m asking for is some helpful imformation.........next thing people will say here is if you own a Leica made before 1945 your a Nazi, people please let`s keep this thread informative and intelligent and anti - nazi and anti - political, let`s talk about Leica`s that`s what this forums for Will someone please help with my request for information here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allen Herbert Posted May 31, 2007 Share Posted May 31, 2007 next thing people will say here is if you own a Leica made before 1945 your a Nazi I never said that,Tom. Why put false words into my mouth? Just trying to help with a greater understanding....is that so wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom_eitnier Posted May 31, 2007 Author Share Posted May 31, 2007 Allen, Please I said "people" ok, that`s NOT meaning you, or directed at you, ok that`s just people in general, why must it be so hard to find out some simple information here about Leica history? I`m very interested in knowing about the production data and information surrounding my camera, Volkswagen and Porsche companies do that with Cardex`s and Letters for collectors, I just wanted to know if anything like that was possible from Leitz or if there`s a specialized collector who has seen/has records of Leitz`s production at that time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allen Herbert Posted May 31, 2007 Share Posted May 31, 2007 ok, that`s NOT meaning you, or directed at you, ok that`s just people in general Okay, whatever. Be cool with your Cardex stuff. Any photos? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthony_brookes5 Posted May 31, 2007 Share Posted May 31, 2007 The first concentration camps were British only by name. They were camps for refugees from the Boer war and were not political camps as in the nature of the German cpncentration camps in WWII. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan flanders Posted May 31, 2007 Share Posted May 31, 2007 It is generally understood among Leicaphiles that no TOTALLY authentic record of Leica serial numbers is available for much of the wartime era. Various authorities have investigated the existing (and often incomplete) records only to come up with different answers. Lager would seem to be the most authoritative but even he admits frustration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l._david_tomei1 Posted May 31, 2007 Share Posted May 31, 2007 Tom, You can contact Lietz by email and request information on the camera. They are very helpful and usually respond in a day or so with production and delivery information if it is available. At least they have done so for several of my cameras dating back to 1935-1939. Just go to their website. ...and sorry if I broadened your question a bit too much but my only interest is to accurately document the history of several of my cameras (BTW which I own quite by accident ...another thread that common sense tells me should remain unposted). Ciao from Roma. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allen Herbert Posted May 31, 2007 Share Posted May 31, 2007 . They were camps for refugees from the Boer war BS they were for the families of the Boers who were fighting the English. Read your history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allen Herbert Posted May 31, 2007 Share Posted May 31, 2007 http://www.boer-war.com/Details2nd/Camps.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom_eitnier Posted May 31, 2007 Author Share Posted May 31, 2007 Thank you Dan and David, I have written Leitz about it and I`m awaiting details if any :) as soon as I have the camera I`ll post a few photos of it up here, it`s just a simple late wartime era 397xxx series camera, but I was really impressed with the condition, while it was very well taken care of :) Thanks Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allen Herbert Posted May 31, 2007 Share Posted May 31, 2007 http://www-sul.stanford.edu/depts/ssrg/africa/boers.html that the British no longer would take their women and children in to the concentartion camps? from the above Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allen Herbert Posted May 31, 2007 Share Posted May 31, 2007 Nazi concentration camps - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... World War II, Nazi Germany maintained concentration camps (Konzentrationslager, ... from the British concentration camps of the Second Anglo-Boer War in order to ... Quick Links: Camps before the war - Camps during the war - Use of Nazi German concentration camp facilities after the war en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_concentration_camps - 53k - Cached - More pages from this site The Boer War The Boer Wars was the name given to the South African Wars of 1880-1 and 1899 ... to this by destroying Boer farms and moving civilians into concentration camps. ...www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/WARboer.htm - 15k - Cached - More pages from Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jean_. Posted May 31, 2007 Share Posted May 31, 2007 Don't be to surprised, history is being "adjusted" quite a bit for a while now. One part is to negate all remnants of the dark era, at the same time there is a huge education about how terribly germany has suffered in WWII. At the end of that process you will learn that this country has been raided and abused for no particular reason. It's amazing to witness the annual rememberings, of course only nitpickers mention why those evil aliens came to germany in the first place.. As to add some 0.02$ to the original intent of this thread, in germany it is forbidden to publish all symbols of that era. It seems just sane to me for a company to avoid legal trouble and simply skip those 12 years, in the same time also avoiding any negative image transfer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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