SQUARE digital backs

[herve_laurent]

Hi everyone,

I ve read with interest the info on the coming hy6. This camera represents for me the ultimate tool and the

first one to offer the 3 things I like in ONE single camera. Digital + Medium format + Square viewing.

So I would like to know if there are at different manufacturers another Square digital back available other

than the Phase one P 20. Please don't give me any of the : you can crop later

Thank you for your input

[j_rgen_loob]

Herve

 

The current available square sensor backs all have 37x37mm , no matter which brand .

I had the chance to use the HY6 and I must say it is a very good design . If the quality is what

the prototypes promise , this camera will be great .

It will be able to use 120/220 film and any digital back , currently available .

But , there is a 48x48 (49x49) mm sensor in the pipe and the HY6 would definately benefit

from this fact.

J�rgen

[herve_laurent]

jurgen,

37x 37mm will be fine but can you tell me whichones they are because all the non tethered

digital backs I see , outside the P20, have RECTANGULAR sensors

Thank you

[ellis_vener_photography]

This camera represents for me the ultimate tool and the first one to offer the 3 things I like in ONE single camera. Digital + Medium format + Square viewing. '

 

Uh, Herve? All these things together since the 16mp Kodak DCS Pro backs from at least 5 years ago. they also use a compact flash card and have theri own battery. There were a couple of limitations: the usable ISo range was 100-200 and exposures longer than 2 seconds got very noisy, but within those parameters the quality is astoundingly good. I've used variations on these backs on a Hasselblad 500C/M and ELX and on a Contax 645. The Kodak DCS pro Back may have been discontinued a couple of years ago but they still make excellent photographs. You can find them on eBay from time to time.

[j_rgen_loob]

Herve

 

You did not say , which camera you want to use .

If you are working with HASSELBLAD , then there is the CFV back , which attaches to most

HASSELBLAD V-SYSTEM cameras and also to most view cameras , if you have the correct

adapter .

Phase One and Leaf also have square sensor backs . Look out for the 16MB/17MB backs .

I myself use the HASSELBLAD CFV back , which is absolutely great .

[mikeseb]

I second Ellis's praise for the Kodak ProBack. Not the back you want to shoot a football game

with, but I'm consistently amazed at the images this relic can produce hanging off the back of

my Contax 645.

[herve_laurent]

The camera I want to use is the new Sinar-leaf-rolleiHy6

[ellis_vener_photography]

good for you. Enjoy!

[j_rgen_loob]

Herve

 

I had the chance to take a couple of shots with that camea . Its a great design .

Its designed to work with LEAF BACKS and therefore will have promotion prices , when you go

for that .

These backs will all have 37x49mm sensors .

But I was told (serious sources) there is a 48x48 sensor in the pipe and should be available in

springtime 2008 .

That will make the HY6 the leading camera in digital and film usage of MF .

[ellis_vener_photography]

"But I was told (serious sources) there is a 48x48 sensor in the pipe and should be available in springtime 2008 . "

 

Is that 48x48 format back only designed to work with that camera? I'd find that very hard to believe.

[j_rgen_loob]

Ellis

 

If that digital back will come on the market , it will not fit any HASSELBLAD H-SYSTEM camera

, therefore HASSELBLAD will shurely not be the maker of that back , and I assume that back

will be open to any camera which could adapt it , with or without adapter .

[brooks short]

I've been using the Kodak ProBack Plus 16mp digital back since 2002 and it's a great back for use in the studio.

 

The Hasselblad CFV back is also a 16mp square back designed to work with the Hasselblad V cameras and sells new for around $9,000. When my Proback was new it cost $15,000. You can buy adapters for the CFV backs that will allow use with view cameras AND Mamiya RZs, Mamiya 645s, Contax etc. Adapters for medium format cameras cost about $700.

 

The CFV back will shoot untethered to a compact flash card or image bank or tethered to a computer.

[ellis_vener_photography]

Maybe not the H serries Hasselblads but there are a lot more people who use the V series Hasselblads (500C, 500C/M, 553, 555, SWC/M, etc.), with digital backs, not to mention Mamiya RZ67 owners, than will ever buy the HY6.

 

I'm not knocking the HY6. I think it will be a great camera and it is a brilliant design, but you have to realistically look at the ever shrinking demand for new or used medium format cameras.

[j_rgen_loob]

Ellis

 

I am using the V-SYSTEM cameras for film and with CFV back . It is just a great system .

And I also have a nice collection of them , some more than 50 years old , in very good

condition and fully working .

I have an english version of the HY6 catalogue . If you want , I can send it to you .

Regards Jurgen

[fotografz]

I'd be interested in where the notion of a larger square sensor originated from Jurgen. I just

can't imagine the cost of producing one with current technology. I know there have been

attempts at it, but it was cost prohibitive given the odd size and waste involved. If we think

the cost of 645 sensors are outrageous, imagine the cost of one of those puppies.

 

If it does happen, won't that be a hoot? Hasselblad, the long running proponent of the

square format, now facing off against a modernized square format system with a 645 based

digital system ... LOL.

[kelly_flanigan1]

Pickup the book "Digital Images" by Adele and Seth Greenberg from circa 1995. Square sensor backs for the Hassleblad and RB67 are 2048 by 2048 pixels; 4.2 Megapixels. This was a 30,000 dollar back; each of the THREE exposure was with a filter; one red, one blue, one green. A pro Nikon dslr was 1.3 Megapixel and cost 14 to 17 grand. The recommend ram for a high end photoshop user was 11 megs. In early 1995 my Photoshop dream machine cost me only 3200. The 17" CRT and 16 megs of ram were 600 each; the same cost as Photoshop with tax.

[tariq_gibran]

Even more funny is that the monstrosity that is now a 645 Imablad/Hasselcon Frankencamera

would be in competition not only with the square Hy6 but also with thousands of inexpensive

used Classic True Hasselblad 6x6 V systems. Thats their worst nightmare. But hey, if it

happens soon enough, perhaps they might keep the V system around a little longer.

 

"If it does happen, won't that be a hoot? Hasselblad, the long running proponent of the

square format, now facing off against a modernized square format system with a 645 based

digital system ... LOL."

[j_rgen_loob]

Marc

 

The origin of that information is easy to tell .

First , representatives of Rollei . I agree , they might have a strong interest to spread a

rumor , because the HY6 is open to attach a 6x6 film back , although this will only be

available later in the year , if at all . But a 48x48 (49x49) sensor back is within the reach of

the near future .

Second is PhaseOne . Their backs , with the appropriate adapters , will attach to almost

any camera , including viewcameras , espcially for studiowork .

All view cameras I know , are open for bigger sensor backs . And the demand is there .

 

I have heard many pros asking for a bigger sensor , especially for better wide angle

shooting .

So for me , it is only a question of time , but I do believe that biggers sensors will come .

 

Now the big disadvantage . To double the size of a sensor , increases the cost for the

sensor by the factor of 4 .

Tremendous costs for pros and studios are coming up .

 

But I see a trend , that many pros and studios dont want to own the gear any more , they

are going to lease or hire the required gear .

PCP (photo competence partner) is a group of the 6 biggest dealers in Germany , and

about 45% of their buisness is already leasing and renting buisness . This includes

cameras , lenses , digital backs and also complete flash systems , delivering the gear and

also picking it up again .

[fotografz]

"But a 48x48 (49x49) sensor back is within the reach of the near future "

 

I curious as to how do you know that?

 

"Tremendous costs for pros and studios are coming up".

 

Hmm, most of the pros I know and work with aren't interested in more megs and even

bigger files to manage. They are more interested in improving the firmware and

software ... getting higher ISO performance, making the capture quicker, and stuff like that

... which all the back makers seem to be responding to.

[j_rgen_loob]

Marc

 

"But a 48x48 (49x49) sensor back is within the reach of the near future"

 

Of course I do not know that such a sensor back comes onto the market , how could I . ?

I think , I should better say , I am convinced , I do blieve . That sounds better .

2 good reasons .

True wide angle photography . Think of the picture of that super wide angle camera you

posted some time ago .

Technical development never stands still . Improvements , as you pointed out as well as

sensor size .

 

J�rgen

[fotografz]

Jurgen, I am less convinced ... but hopeful ... that a larger square sensor will come to be.

Maybe a speciality back or camera, but it seems to costly for mainstream commercial work,

and for what gain?

 

Yesterday I played with the Hasselblad 28mm on a H3D/39 using Flex-color DAC aberration

and distortion corrections, and it's as wide as I'd ever conceive of using. I have a 28mm

coming for my Rollie Xact + 39 meg back, with its more practical T/S abilities, for other wide

work.

[j_rgen_loob]

Marc

 

Which 28mm digital lens are you going to use ? ? ?

Is it the SCHNEIDER DIGITAR F2,8/28L or is it the APO-SIRONAR-DIGITAL HR F4,5/28 ?

Both are available also with electronic shutters and both are rather expensive .

If you have a good dealer , he will assist you with the lensboard , which for both lenses

should probably be recessed

My APO-SIRONAR-DIGITAL F4,5/35mm is on the way to ARCA-SWISS (finally , after 8

weeks waiting for that moment) , and they will mount the lens on a 15mm recessed

lensboard for my ARCA 6x9 . AOV is 110 degrees .

I will then compare this lens with my 905SWCBiogon . AOV is 90 degrees .

 

Have a nice weekend .

Jurgen

[kelly_flanigan1]

Dreams of having an large area sensor that fills more of the 6x6cm usable area have been around for several decades.<BR><BR> Its like dreaming that the 100 MPG carb will be released. This dream was alive when Silcon Film was VGA; then last 1.3 megapixels for a Nikon F3. <BR><BR>Wishing doesnt magically make the giant sensors development cost radically drop. The building cost of a clean room is 2 to 5 grand per square foot. Sensors in volume like the Canon 5D, AND ZILLION digital P&S cameras have large production volumes that spread a sensors development cost over millions of sensors.<BR><BR> With a giant MF digital sensor; the pickle is there is little volume; thus one has to pay for the development cost thru insanely high sensor costs. <BR><BR>Folks have ALWAYS whinned about low volume digital backs being expensive. Its like whinning about why a tricked out hotrod, home or movie set cost more than a generic versions.<BR><BR> Most all the folks who wish for something for nothing dont grasp return on investment. Digital backs for MF are NOT made in high volumes like color TV's, DVD players, or Ipods. The high prices for digital backs is required so the HUGE tooling and development costs can be paid for; so the company doesnt go bankrupt.<BR><BR> If you think these backs should be cheaper and sold below cost; then shoot weddings for 50 bucks; tell your boss you will work for free.<BR><BR> Items that are made in low volumes, that are custom made, use exotic materials, and take alot of high tech labor cost alot in the stone man era. <BR><BR>Wishing doesnt pay the cost of a custom low/nil volume sensor.<BR><BR>MF and LF digital backs are really old tools; going back way over a decade. The original backs were tethered AND required a separate exposure for each channel. One exposed for R; then for G; then for B. A different filter was used for each shot. Graphics service bureaus did this in the early 1990's; most for shooting artwork pieces; or for some still life advertising work for products. Folks wanted a low cost about 6x6 cm sensor 14 years ago; all the whining and wishing energy still has produced ZERO products. <BR><BR>A 48x48mm sensor can be made; folks just dont want to pay the development costs required and production costs of a super low volume sensor. Folks will always want something for nothing; its human nature.

[mikeseb]

Well said, Kelly.

 

If only we could make this response "sticky", entitle it "Economics 101", and require its reading as a precondition for posting on photo.net!

 

It is a source of much vexation that so many in the arts community have absolutely no understanding of business or economics. Maybe it's why there are so many starving artists! :)

[fotografz]

Jurgen, it is the f/2.8 version. I already got the Rollie recessed lens board with wide

bellows attached. I passed on the Rollie electronic shutter, I won't be using this set up

enough to justify the cost. It's more of a requirement for the multi-shot backs, but mine is

single shot.

 

Man it's hard to focus these cameras. I need a 6 or 8X loop.

 

I agree with Kelly, I believe the economics of a big square sensor would be prohibitive.

There is so much resolution in a 39 meg back, especially a multishot version, that I can't

imagine what more we could need. I'd like to see more improvement in firmware and

software performance, before more megs.