Digital Scope Creep - What's the true cost?

[matt_grimes]

Ok, so I've finally decided to give up on film and make the move to digital. I

am primarily a hobbyist but occasionally try and cover events of interest to me.

I shot up five rolls last weekend covering a Land Rover rally and because I was

in a hurry ended up spending $55 getting it developed/printed/CD'ed. It doesn't

take a rocket scientist to figure out that the digital would pay for itself in a

reasonably short time.

 

After reading many very thoughtful postings I have decided to replace my ElanII

with a lightly-used 20D. But....the more I look into this...it makes me wonder

where this venture all ends? The more I read the more I think "scope creep".

 

1. Apparently, my RC-1 wireless remote won't work on the 20D.

 

2. Evidently I need to buy some fancy-schmancy (Photoshop)photo editing software

in order to fiddle about with the images. Assuming, that is, I shoot in RAW

format which seems to make the most sense. I do own PaintShop Pro Version 9.1

maybe that will work?

 

3. If I want to print my own I'll need to buy a printer/paper and lots of ink

cartridges. My current inkjet printer is five years old and very tired.

 

4. I'll need several Flash Memory cards, and a Card Reader for my PC.

 

5. ?

 

6. ?

 

What else is lurking out there waiting to empty my wallet?

[catchlight]

If you think you won't enjoy all the computer work, and setup expense, that comes with switching to digital, stick with film and concentrate on getting the images you want that way.

 

If you do go digital, consider not printing your own images; use a good lab instead. Monitor callibration and printer maintanance can be an expensive headache.

 

Adobe Photoshop Elements will do nicely for image processing for less than $100. Adode Lightroom will do a good job for about $200.

 

Good luck on making the choice that will keep you enjoying photography.

[sheryl_bury_michals]

Matt,

 

make sure you have a few extra batteries on hand, just to have when the one in your camera loses ppower and needs to be recharged - get a battery charger too.

 

Sometimes camera places like Calumet and B&H offer "packages" where you get the body, a lens, a memory card, battery, and charger. Sometimes they even give you a case (as when they did when I bought the 10D ages ago). So you get a lot to start with.

 

Lenses - there are great lenses out there - lots of posts on this site covering them all - depending on what you shoot will depend onthe lens, and there is a price range.

 

However, DO get more than 1 memory card - as you will want to rotate them usage-wise. Memory's cheap now, so getting a 1 or 2 GB card is pretty reasonable-they even have cards up to 8 GB. I still have my 256MB Lexar cards from my 10D that I use with my 30D at times for smaller shoots.

 

I've used Photoshop for years, and just buy the upgrades (I'm up to CS, and have yet to go beyond that at this point). I know there are other programs out there, but PS is pretty standard. Lightroom is another one that people tout on this site.

 

There are good printers out now - Epson makes some nice ones such as the 2400 (which I just got in November), but it really depends how large a print you plan to make. Atlex.com(which was recommended to me on this site) has the best prices on photo printer ink cartridges - better than any camera store out there - or computer places like COMP USA - and I have checked, trust me. Also, there are lots of paper choices - you'll have to check those out to see what you like(finish-wise) as well.

 

If bought right, the right equipment will be more of a benefit to you than just a "wallet emptier".

 

Good luck. I hope you get what you need - and want.

 

Sheryl

[les]

Matt - while shooting film is expensive - digital is not cheap either.

 

I will not dwell on camera/lenses - you know what you want, you will get it. The rest of the gear you may need:

 

1) Card reader (no biggie, $15 or $20)

 

2) I do not know about PaintShop Pro - but it seems that a lot of people are using it. Photoshop is a big gun but works well (I use PS7), Lightroom doesn't do all I need (so it got removed from my computer). A cheap solution might be Picture Window - 16bit processing, built in filters and some lens corrections, excellent masking capabilities. A bit outdated GUI, but - have I mentioned it is cheap and does everything you might want to do with a picture ? Costs $90 or some such, and a 30-day trial version is available.

 

3) Several memory cards - maybe. I use 2x2Gb Lexars, and have Epson P2000 for these (rare) occasions where I need some more storage. Mind it, external storage devices are available at much less than the cost of Epson P2000 (or its current equivalent). I figure you need to budget for about $200. Cards are getting cheaper and cheaper - but I never needed more than 2 (one in the camera, one as a backup).

 

4) Printing - printers are cheap, but inks are not. For about $400 you will get a good quality inkjet. Generally, DIY printing is not cheaper than in the lab (at least in Australia), in fact is more expensive - but I print what I want and how I want, so there is not going back.

 

5) If you do printing and editing - then sooner or later you will need some hardware solution for calibration of the monitor and the printer. I use Eye One. I paid $1140 (when it was still Gretag-Macbeth), now with X-Rite owning it it costs about $1400. Worth every penny - but it may be over the budget for some people. Printer profiles from Canon (my printer) are pretty good, but if you want to print on non-OEM paper you will need to calibrate each particular ink/paper combination, or you will just be wasting time, ink, and paper. I still use a CRT which I can calibrate with Eye One, but CRTs (particularly of higher quality) are pretty much a thing of the past, so LCD (or more expensive LED) monitor are par for the course. I do not know 100%, but it appears to me that LCD monitors have to be calibrated using some hardware device (like Eye One) if you want good color fidelity.

 

OK, I think this pretty much covers it. Putting it all together it comes to $2000 or close. Of course, instead of Eye-One you might try Pantone Colorvision devices - it appears it is quite a bit cheaper, while providing satisfactory solution for color management.

 

Of course - I am assuming you already have a good monitor and heaps of memory and disk space - in other words, a decent comp. If not - you will need that too.

 

And, last but not the least - membership at PhotoNet is only $25 or so. I consider it as a part of my budget for photography (YMMV). The members here helped me save heaps of money - giving me the info on cameras, lenses, printers, Color Management etc. etc. Not one of my (numerous) purchases was a hit-or-miss proposition.

 

Hope this is of some help.

[roger_smith4]

I have a 20d and highly recommend Lightroom as a raw converter/editor. It should work happily with your photo editing program.

 

For the battery/charger, try sterlingtek which is dirt cheap and reputedly quite good. I bought a charger and battery from them and it arrived today. I like that it has a car adapter with it.

 

You don't need a printer. I use winkflash.com. $.12 for a 4x6.

[znabal]

Matt, besides the new camera body figure about $80 for a couple of 2 Gb CF cards. .You can probably more than get by in the beginning with the latest version of Elements ($100) Printing can be done at a commercial establishment...no different than film, but the normal (letter size)

photo printers from the likes of Canon such as the iP4300 do a surprisingly good job for less than $100 plus ink refills and photopaper (the real expenses!). Memory card reader is like $20, not a "must have" in my mind, I have one and rarely use it. I had to buy a new remote too, don't remember the price.

 

But the other "costs" involved that are harder to quantify...will the digital camera "force" you to buy a new computer. more memory, and more storage? Will the crop sensor of a 20D "force" you to buy a new super-wide lens? Then there are opportunity costs that go both ways...what else could you do with the money in the meantime? What photos might you get with digital that you wouldn't with film because you'd be more willing to shoot? Because you can change ISO on the fly? What is it worth to have access to your photos immediately vice waiting for processing? What's it worth to have the media (film) BE the storage? What's it worth to be easily sortable, viewable, emailable etc? (and which way is easier for you, computer or hard copy?) Do you like the "look" of film? Do you like seeing your slides on a light table? I'm sure I'm missing other "costs" but you get the idea.

 

Anyway, between the camera, all the memory cards and other things, even at the 4000 or so exposures a year I'm now shooting with my 5D, it is going to be a long, long time before I "save" all the money I spent on stuff related to my digital camera :) good luck - jeffl

[jimstrutz]

PaintShop Pro version 9 will be fine. You don't need to do anything with that. It's a good program, and Photoshop will only complicate matters without providing any meaningful advantages. Later, you may want to upgrade if you see the need, but I never have. You might want to upgrade your RAM in the family computer though.

 

You can use the RAW converter that comes with the 20D (Digital Photo Pro). There are faster to use programs out there but DPP works well. There are also some good free RAW converters to try.

 

A decent letter sized photo printer can be had for about $100 from several companies. You don't really need one, but it is nice to be able to do your own when the fancy strikes you.

 

It's a bummer that the RC-1 doesn't work with the 20D. It was one of my biggest disappointments. But if they don't get any worse than that, it's not so bad, right?

 

Memory's cheap these days. Get three 2 gig cards and be happy. Ebay sells the off brand versions dirt cheap. Just don't buy any Sandisk cards there. You won't be happy.

[alexdi]

A few thoughts:

 

4 GB 133X flash cards that will max out the 20D are $40 at Adorama. That's about 450 RAW pictures, or 1000 JPEGs.

 

Do not print your own images. I have a $700 Epson 2200 and hundreds of dollars in profiling hardware. The whole business is a huge pain the ass, and it's not worth it unless you're printing for wall mounting on special paper. I used mine to duplicate art on canvas. To replace all the miniature cartridges in this printer would cost $120. I wouldn't recommend it, or any consumer inkjet, for conventional prints. Have the local photomat do it on their Fuji machine for $0.20 per 4x6. It's faster, costs less, and has better color and longevity.

 

There's lots of decent software out there. Literally dozens of RAW options in the $50-$100 range, not including Canon's own DPP software. For JPEGs, there are more programs than I care to count. It won't be long before you find something that suites you.

 

DI

[les]

"The whole business is a huge pain the ass, and it's not worth it..."

 

Respectfully - I disagree. Of course if your target is 4x6, then there is no argument (except "better color"). Horses for courses, I guess...

[jobo1]

2. Compared to film, you can use in-camera settings to do (roughly) as much as the choice of film you put in. Using editing software is a step up, so you do get "something for something".

 

3. You can hold off on the printer purchase and see if store-bought prints do it for you (they work for me). Again, no expense, no difference...

 

4. Cards and card readers are cheap these days, but definitely needed.

 

5. Monitor profiling: If you get the wrong colors, you might want to look into this. Getting the gamma curve and blackpoint right is IMO most important, and can be done by eye with free software.

 

6. Spare battery/ies, in-car charger for events. Sensor cleaning (services/equipment).

[john_downie1]

I think some of the listed costs of digital represent a false distinction between film and digital. One could spend exactly the same on software and hardware etc., plus a scanner, to edit and print from film. Presumably the editing, etc. enhances the final product and gives control over criteria one would not have taking a roll of film to be developed.

 

The benefits of the software and hardware investments are seen in the final product and not truly incremental to a digital conversion. To get the same results as you got with film, you could shoot jpegs and take your memory card into a shop with a printer. (Digital has the advantage of allowing one to print only "keepers".)

 

The true incremental investment in digital is the net cost of the new body and lenses (new minus resale of film gear), plus memory cards (and a new wireless remote). This can then be compared to the net cost saving per printed "keeper" - foregone film purchase, no developing costs and reduced total images printed.

 

John

[Brad_]

<I>2. Evidently I need to buy some fancy-schmancy (Photoshop)photo editing software in

order to fiddle about with the images. Assuming, that is, I shoot in RAW format which

seems to make the most sense. I do own PaintShop Pro Version 9.1 maybe that will work?

<P>

 

3. If I want to print my own I'll need to buy a printer/paper and lots of ink cartridges. My

current inkjet printer is five years old and very tired.</i><P>

 

Or you could stay with film and set up a really nice color darkroom in your home and do

your own processing and printing. A total system with color enlarger, accesories,

plumbing and consumables shouldn't be too expensive, right? And you'll probably save a

ton of time as well with wet processing, right? And, have more processing flexibility and

get superior quality as well. Right?

[matt_grimes]

Wow...that's a bunch of good info. Thank you all for the responses. I'll take some time and give this some consideration.

 

Some basic responses:

 

1. I do plan on keeping my existing lenses:

a) Canon 28-135mm, IS, f3.5-5.6

b) Tokina 20-35mm, AT-X Pro, f2.8

c) Tamron 1.4X Teleconverter

 

2. Home computer is up to date; P4 3.2GHz w/1GB RAM. Only an 80GB drive though. Somehow using 'only' and 80 GB in the same sentence seems ludicrous.

 

3. I dumped my 19"CRT recently and got a Samsung 970P which I think should be ok. I'm not sure I totally understand this 'calibration' business. I know the monitor came with some software called MagicTune which I have used to adjust it.

 

4. I suspect I will start off taking my images to the local lab for printing so I can concentrate on mastering the camera. I really like the 'print only the keepers' theory. In my case that was usually only a handful out of a roll.

 

5. [brad] I haven't done any darkroom work since I was a kid. It was fun! But I no longer have the space or inclination for that whole messy business and I image color processing adds a whole new range of issues.

 

Thanks again...

[J.W. Wall]

You can send your "keepers" over the internet, or carry in a CD, to a Walmart or Costco, and pick up your prints shortly afterward. I hear it works very well. E.g., locally here in Tucson, the Arizona Sonora Desert Museum Gallery now has an exhibit of large color prints by Dr. John Schaefer, which he said were printed mostly via Costco (scanned from medium format film, sent digital files for printing). (Very colorful cactus flowers on black backgrounds, by the way.)

 

For storage, you might consider an external hard drive, USB or firewire, in the 250-500GB range. One advantage is that it can plug into most any computer, in case yours fails. FWIW, I use Western Digital "My Book" drives, successfully (so far).

 

Card reader - much faster, for me, than hooking up the camera to the PC for downloads. And you can use the camera with another CF card while the first one loads.

 

Lenses - Sounds like you have that covered for now, at least to start with. I had only the 28-135mm and a 50mm for a long while, before buying others. That gave me a chance to learn the camera and figure out what I wanted to do and which lenses I needed for it. Good light and good luck!

[robert lee]

"What else is lurking out there waiting to empty my wallet?"

 

Short answer is: nothing.

 

If you follow the traditional snapshooter's model, digital capture is significantly cheaper than 35mm film. Capture in jpeg, walk up to the photo kiosk with the memory card, print the 6 keepers (out of the 60 or 100) at less than $0.15 per 4x6.

 

All the extras (Photoshop, color management systems, photo inkjet, etc.) are the modern analog of the traditional wet darkroom. Similarly, the reward for the additional hassle, time, and expense are prints of potentially much higher quality.

[steve_dunn2]

<p>The software package that comes with the 20D includes an old version of Photoshop Elements (which qualifies for a reduced-price upgrade to a current version if you want to move up) and two different RAW converters (updates to which can be downloaded for free from Canon's Web site), so as long as whoever's selling you the 20D includes all the stuff that came in the box, you have the basic software you need and it won't cost much to get current.</p>

 

<p>You don't <em>need</em> a card reader, but it's a very good idea. They're about twenty bucks, so by the time you've take a hundred shots or so, the money you haven't spent on film and processing has paid for the card reader. Same idea applies to CF cards; if you're shooting RAW, enough CF capacity to handle the number of photos you'd get from a roll of film costs a few times more than you'd pay for the film and processing, but the CF card is reusable whereas the film and processing aren't. So again, the savings on film pay for the CF cards after the equivalent of a few rolls.</p>

 

<p>There's also the savings on mulligans. Once you've tripped the shutter on a film camera, the frame has been used, and you're gonna have to pay for developing (at least, and maybe printing, depending on your lab and what you ask them to do). If you blow it with digital and realize it in that split-second after taking the picture, no biggie (most of the time, anyway); erase it and try again. There's also instant feedback; you thought you nailed the exposure, but it turns out you didn't, so unlike film, where you don't find out until you've returned home and got your pictures back from the lab, you can learn from your mistake and take the shot with more appropriate settings. And as you know, you can always select which pictures you take/send to the lab for printing, so you can easily evaluate your photos <em>before</em> paying to print them.</p>

 

<p>One other note: remember the crop factor. Your current widest lens, 20, will act like 32 on the 20D. Assuming that the reason you bought the 20 in the first place was that the 28 wasn't wide enough, you'll need to buy something wider to restore your ultrawide field of view on the 20D.</p>

[geoff_doane]

When I bought an original Drebel in late 2004, Photoshop Elements came bundled with it. They don't seem to be doing that any more, but AFAIK, all the new Canon bodies do include Canon's own RAW converter, so you don't need another program to do that. I'm still using that same copy of Elements with the 5D. It does everything I need it to (for now).

 

The 300D and 400D (and likely the 350D too) will also work with your IR remote. If you can get past the tiny size of the 400D, that might be a practical alternative to the 20D. It offers custom functions similar to those offered by the Elan II.

 

And don't replace the Elan, hang onto it. It's not worth anything anyway, and you may decide you still want to shoot film from time to time (or not).

 

Look into an external USB hard drive (or two) for storage. You don't want your images sitting on just one drive, because sooner or later it will crash. With two external drives, you can keep one at another location in case your computer catches on fire or gets caught in a flood. External drives are now a better value than CDs, on a $/MB basis.