Gettin a M7 - pls talk me out of it...

[patricks]

After having done yet an inventory of my photographic interest, potenital and passion, I'm realizing that a Leica rangefinder comes closest to perfection since I highly value small size/package and fast high quality lenses to do my travel, candid portraits, city/street photography.

 

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I had a M6TTL with a 35/2 asph. Cumbersome process but I was happy with the result (but I do have a sense that I missed some great shots). I would really appreciate the AE of the M7 I believe. Also I think the on/off switch would serve be greatly (and DX coding is good for us absent minded people).

 

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Now, since my allround lens of choice will be a 50mm, and then I'm planning to add a 75 'lux quickly (perhaps a Noctilux or a 90 instead/as well) I'm strongly leaning towars the .85 vf. I think the .72 was a bit small, and I have no intention of shooting 28mm lens. If I indeed want wide angle, I'd go with a 21mm or wider and then an external vf would be in place.

 

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Now, what is wrong with that line of reasoning? I'm not worried about battery dependance, nor 'doing it all myself'. a .72 vf w/ the 1.25x magnifier is an option, but that's wasting $200 on a $25 product. I'm a bit concerned about the high M7 price (even though I'm offered to buy one at $2,209 from auth dealer). Another concern is the arrival of the M7 .85 - I could be waiting for months and months.

 

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What what have I forgot/overseen in my assessment?

 

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cheers,

[kevin_baker___heidelberg_]

Don't use your technical reasoning to justify an M7. There are

other cameras out there that do more for less.

 

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You'll never regret buying one if you use it like a camera should

be...

[steve_hoffman]

Pat,

 

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One more tidbit for you to think about. Leica is adding a mod to the

M7 for the third run, due on or around October 1. Supposed to be

a "flair fix" for the viewfinder.

 

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Personally, I'd just get one now. The prices won't come down for a

long while!

[paul_chefurka1]

Sorry, I can't talk you out of it - I love mine. As far as I'm

concerned, the M7 is the first slam-dunk upgrade Leica has done since

the original M6 in 1985.

 

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I've been assured by a gentleman from Solms that the .58 and .85

finders will be out by the end of June, so I don't think you will

have "months and months" to wait. A .85 finder sounds appropriate,

given your focal length interests - I agree that a .72 with a 1.25x

is a less attractive solution if you'd normally shoot 50mm and longer

lenses.

 

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The additional cost of an M7 over the M6 is an issue only you can

justify. For me it works like this: The M7 is the camera that will

be Leica's flagship for the next fifteen years or so. The extra few

hundred dollars amortized over that time period is insignificant, if

you plan to shoot with Leica M's for that long.

 

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From my point of view, the M7 is a no-brainer for anyone considering

buying a new Leica today.

[Robin Smith]

Pat

 

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You said you had an M6TTL. What happened to it? If you sold it because

it was not for you then I doubt an M7 will work either. AE might help

a bit for fast moving shots when the light is changing, but it is not

that much of a big deal really.

 

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"Also I think the on/off switch would serve be greatly"

 

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Surely you jest sir? This is a VERY small change.

[paul_chefurka1]

Robin: About the switch - from a camera handling point of view this

is not a small deal. OK, it's not as big a change as a flip-open

back might have been, but a switch that prevents in-bag exposures and

battery drain with a single simple movement of the index finger is a

mighty useful addition. It may seem like small potatoes because it's

such a simple thing, but imagine if your house lights had to be

turned off by unscrewing the light bulbs... What's so astonishing is

not that they put the switch on the M7, but how long it took them to

realize what a good idea it was.

[gary_brown2]

I bought Pat's M6! What a gentleman. I've also been fortunste Pat to

use an M7, (my son is a photographer and got me onto the system). I

use them both and love the ability to just worry about the F stop in

certain occasions, I know that I've gotten shots that are better

exposed and "captured the moment" with the 7. I'm used to a Nikon

auto system so my experience is probably as usual unique to me and

those who have shot Leica for years may not make as big an issue of

it. The camera is a joy to use and I find myself looking for it more

than I thought it would. Your M6 is well taken care of and has so

far seen a lot of use.. I'd go for the M7 Pat!

[matt_sachs]

The AE is a great feature for my shooting style; I snapped at the M7

after wanting an M6 for many years but not obtaining one because I

didn't want to be forced to meter manually (although of course I often

do work this way). It is quite rapid to set the aperture, meter for

where "middle gray" should be, lock the exposure with a partial

shutter press to fix the shutter speed, and proceed. If I change my

mind, I just let up on the release, move the camera a little to fish

another shutter speed, trap with a partial press, and continue.

 

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There is one thing to consider in your assessment, since it wasn't

obvious to me just by reading the specs, and is my major complaint

about the M7. With my EOS3 I can really use the exposure compensation

dial on the back "on the fly" instead of the catch and release

approach with the shutter button described above. The M7 requires you

hold a button with one hand while twirling a dial with the other,

which is not so much fun to do with the camera at eye level while

there is action going on. Indeed, people who use the

camera manually have it better for tweaking exposure than those who

use it automatically and would want to use exposure compensation to

quickly tweak the exposure. Furthermore, the "0" setting on the

compensation dial has the same click-feel as the other settings, so

you need to keep count of where you are (+/-6 clicks) or look to see

where you are compensation-wise. While purists who like an

uncluttered finder might shudder, the EOS3 is great since it gives you

exposure compensation settings right in the viewfinder. Possibly

someone on the list knows the proper "manual of arms" to use the

compensation dial more satisfactorily?

[fotografz]

See, the new M7 IS bringing in new blood. Maybe Leica will get

profitable and come out with some REALLY important

advancements...like MORE FAST ASPH LENSES in the spirit of

the fabulous 28/2 ASPH... for those of us who aren't all wrapped

up in the box at the end of the lens. Hey, I think I'll start a thread

about "dream Leica lenses"

[james_.1]

Hey Marc, how about a 24/2 asph? yum...

[rich_weiss]

I almost sold my entire M6TTL and lens setup, but for several reasons

I held on to it for a while, never using it, mostly because a Leica

lens is such a thing of beauty and wonderful to hold and admire. But

along came the M7 with aperature priority autoexposure and on/off

switch, so I traded my M6TTl for a M7, ordered more M lenses and now

barely use my Nikons. The quality of the pics are fabulous, and

probably more vibrant than my Nikkor AF S f2.8 lenses, and much

lighter.

By the way I sold my M6 and lenses around 1993 because I couldn't

live without TTL flash. Go for the M7 - fantastic camera.

[patricks]

well, my M6TTL was a try out to see what all the fuss was about.

Once I got used to the Leica lenses, it is hard to turn back,

particularly I miss access to fast (and relatively small) lenses. I

realized that .72 wasn't probably for me and that my 35/2 asph was a

bit too wide for my everyday shooting - voila - the combo found a new

home at Gary's.

 

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Regarding on/off. I actually think it is a rather big deal. I think

the lack of it on the M6 is idiotic and I lose valuable time fumbling

with it.

 

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My last hesitant on the M7 is that there has been some minor issues

with it, perhaps waiting a few months might be the wise thing to do.

Then again, If I was wise why would I be spending thousands of

dollars on Leica gear...

 

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cheers,

[dford]

Pat -

 

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DO NOT BUY AN M7 or M6 for use with a 50mm lens.

No rangefinder flare, perfect 50mm frame-lines filling the

viewfinder, viewfinder DESIGNED with .91 magification?

You have only one choice - an M3, the best rangefinder for the 50mm

lens that Leica or anyone for that matter, has ever made. This

perfect combination of camera and lens can not be bested by any

bastardization of camera/add-on magnifier combination, made by any

manufacturer of rangefinder cameras of any era.

The de-evolutionary process at Leica started soon thereafter, and

continues today, to where we are discussing magnifiers on electronic

shuttered Leicas with flareing finders.

PS - Suggest M2 or M4 for the 35mm lens.

 

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Doug

[olivier_reichenbach]

It's funny, but I've recently been told that many M7 buyers cited the on/off switch as a big factor

in their decision to buy. Is that crazy or what? Now, it IS nice to have and convenient, but am I

wrong or the M6 "classic" already had the "B" position to turn off the electric circuitry, and the M6

TTL actually had an "off" position? Of course, a switch isn't worth all that extra money. But AE

and DX coding and high speed TTL flash with dedicated Metz 54 and quieter shutter are...

almost. Now, for that viewfinder, I don't think you should plan on never wanting to shoot anything

wider than 50 and go with the .85. The .72 is a good medium compromise. If you really have

problems focusing the longer focals then, yes, get a magnifier. Sure, the price is ludicrous, but

you will not jeopardize a possible need for wider framing. IMHO.

[john_a.]

There are rumors a new VF to further improve flair in Sept. Maybe

worth the wait. I have one and enjoy it very much, but refuse to

give up my M6ttl.

[jay_.]

Pat, from the sound of your post trying to talk you out of an M7

would be like trying to talk a jumper down when he's already

airborne. Life is short. So is the time left for 35mm film

photography. If you want an M7, buy one.

[john_c.]

Attention Steve and John: the word is "flare"... not "flair". Although

I'd agree that the Leica M system does have "flair" (a stylish sense).

[dlegaspi]

just buy one. geez...

[skip_williams]

<<< DO NOT BUY AN M7 or M6 for use with a 50mm lens. No rangefinder

flare, perfect 50mm frame-lines filling the viewfinder, viewfinder

DESIGNED with .91 magification? You have only one choice - an M3, the

best rangefinder for the 50mm lens that Leica or anyone for that

matter, has ever made >>>

 

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I believe that the main reason that an .85 M7 shines vs. the M3 is

the AE. Yes, my M3 is a masterful product, almost perfect, but the

use of an external meter and manual exposure should not be

underestimated in it's impact. I had a .85 M6 for a while, and it

was very nice for longer lenses. If he REALLY doesn't shoot much

below 50, wait for the .85. If you use the 75/1.4, you will need the

framelines.

 

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The M3 is NOT a substitute for an AE camera, no matter how good it's

RF or flare-resistance. If you don't get the shot with your m3

properly exposed because your subject moved quickly into different

light and you couldn't react fast enough, all the great mechanics and

RF aren't worth a hill of beans.

 

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Buy what you need to do your job. The M7 is a masterful piece of

equipment and it has an honored place in my bag, right next to the M3

and Hexar RF.

[lux]

Is AE that important? Seriously, if you are shooting Tri x in an

almost constant lighting environmet, how much fluctuation of

exposures are we talking about? one stop?

 

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Just print the negative with graded papers and you should get what

you need.

 

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Just buy the M7 if you can afford it. It's not going to improve your

pictures anymore than what you can do with the M6s.

[noah]

I agree with Lux. I don't know why anyone would spend top dollar

for an M7 when you can get great deals on M6 TTL's right now.

I've seen new USA ones for $1850. With a leica day discount and

the $200 rebate they're currently offering, that's $1465. You could

buy a lens, or a lot of film, with the savings.

 

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I agree that the on/off swich might be nice for when the camera

is in the bag, but no street or candid photographer I know would

ever turn the camera off. The best pictures have a way of

happening when your camera is turned off. The fact that the M6

can't turn off means it's always ready for action. It's a trade-off for

some wasted shots of the inside of your bag. Film is cheap.

 

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If you want automation, I don't think that a Leica is the right

choice. Get an F100 with a 28/1.4. One of the nice things about

shooting with an all-manual M is that it forces you to think more

and make decisions. I believe if you shoot enough with a

Manual camera, you'll come to trust your own judgement more

than that of some automatic camera.

 

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This is just my opinion, of course. I'm sure you'll be happy with

whatever you choose.

[george_b1]

No one in this thread has asked Pat what *type* of film he shoots. If he shoots B&W or color negs Lux's answer certainly make

sense; however, IMHO, if he shoots slides almost exclusively, the the precision shutter on the M7 makes sense.

[alejandro_scarletti]

Pat, you have got to be completely confused by now ! Let me share

with you my experience...

I have ALL the Leica M cameras, the R bodies and most of Leica's M &

R lenses, including the rare f2.8 35-70 Vario zoom lens. I bought

the M7 when it first came out, and I never look back. I carry with me

the M7 + f2.0/28 ASPH and a digital camera everywhere I go. The M7 is

a professional "point and shoot" camera. If I wanted serious

photgraphy done, and have time to spare and prepare, I can also use a

Hasselblad + tripod, which takes a long time to set up.

The M7 gives you the choice of manual or auto, so it should be a good

choice. I have very little reason to go back to my M6. The M3 and M4

is a different story...

I hope you find this information useful.

[patricks]

valid question, george. I tend to shoot b&w and color in neg, but

I'm swithing to slide for my color work. And buying a scanner so I

perhaps can put my money (result? talent?) where my mouth is... :-)

 

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Also, even if I know I'll get an M7 sooner or later, I'm still

debating getting a used M6TTL .85 for now and getting a M7 on a later

production batch. But then again, I might not have the cash

available at a later date... (gotta spend Uncle Sam's tax return on

something that makes sense)

 

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cheers, and thanks for all the valuable input so far.

[Allen Herbert]

Just print the negative with graded papers and you should get what

you need.

 

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Just buy the M7 if you can afford it. It's not going to improve your

pictures anymore than what you can do with the M6s

 

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Move to auto will make you a lazy photographer stick to manual it

will make you think.You will enjoy more and be better.