Policy Change: FS/WTB posts

[joshroot]

1. It appears that I left out a couple words. The sentence should have read "The fact that improvements to the photo.net classifieds <b>are needed</b> is a valid point."

<P>

2. The decision on the Leica forum classifieds has been made. It is not up to me to "unmake" it, so there isn't much to discuss. I guess if someone wants to email me about it, they are welcome to. But again, they won't get much more of a reply than what I have written here.

[forum_shopper]

I'm sure that many of the valid issues and concerns raised in this thread were never considered by those who made the decision to eliminate FS posts. It is therefore too bad that no one with authority is even willing to go back, reconsider the decision or consider ways to accommodate the legitimate concerns of both "sides" here. Why not? To me, not to do that seems unreasonable, especially since no one even did us the courtesy of asking for opinions and input before telling us how it will be. People like to be consulted. No great surprise there. Has anyone running Photo.net ever heard of "managing expectations"?

 

Josh, I agree with Rob's point #2 above. The disconnect between the "I don't want to hear it" tone of your first post above and the title you have is, in my opinion, not the sort of thing it makes sense to cultivate.

 

I think you will have your work cut out for you if the community continues to be ruled by fiat.

[mike dixon]

Currently, images can be placed in a classified ad by posting a link or HTML image code in a followup post. The photo.net staff is looking into adding an image upload feature to the classifieds.

[erudolph]

I think Ray has said it well in the quote below. I agree with him.

 

"Without having read this whole thread, my only comment on topic is that it seems to me the FS posts have often been an extension of and included discussion of Leica and rangefinder gear, which is most of what the forum is about. Seeing pics of the cameras, who's selling it, why they're selling it, what it is, how they liked it, what it can do, who thinks it's priced right or not- is part and parcel of the forum. It's primarily a gear forum. Seems like exchange of that gear and discussion of it is pretty central to the purpose of the forum and sense of community."

[michael s.]

Perhaps it's because I've done so little trading, but I see this as at most an inconvenience.

 

And even that can be ameliorated in part by doing the following:

 

1. Create a "sticky" (i.e., permanent) link that goes from both the Leica Forum page *and* the "New Answers Since ..." page (the one I most often use) to 'our section' of the Classifieds on pnet. Call that link "Leica and RF Classifieds."

 

2. Cause that link to open, by default, as "Search by Original Posting Date," so that the newest posts are at the top (as was suggested above, I think).

 

That should be fairly easy to do, shouldn't it ? Josh, Mike, Tony ?

 

And assuming it can be done, it will in a sense recreate the FS/FT/WTB segment of this Forum, but on another pnet page.

 

What might get "lost" is the give and take in which X posts FS a 35mm Summicron, Y responds "looks great, wish I could afford it; probably have to settle for one of the 40's for the time being," and then Z replies "hey, I've got a 40mm Summicron-C I'm not using -- send an email if interested."

 

But comments are permitted in the classifieds (and so are photos, by the way), so I'd say people should be consider themselves as much at liberty to comment 'there' as they do 'here' -- however much that is. :-)

[mike dixon]

<b>Moderator's note:</b> The photo.net staff has read and re-read this thread and is aware of users' views on the change. For the sake of clarity, I've deleted posts from this thread which were not direct questions about the policy change, suggestions for improving the function of the classifieds, and suggestions for better integrating the discussion forum and classifieds. Some of the issues (e.g. RSS feeds, newest posts at the top, adding photo uploads) are already being investigated.<P>

We will try to address more of your questions and suggestions in the near future.

[james_cooke]

The currency issue is a concern. If its a US Dollar only listing then I certainly wouldn't be using it. I don't live in the USA. It does give the impression its an American forum and everyone else are outsiders.

[jtdnyc]

Mike, I understand your reasons for deleting repetitive posts and irrelevant byplay between contributors, and I want to thank you for doing so as it makes the thread easier to follow.

 

What I don't understand is why you deleted many of the valid concerns that were expressed including, for example, the likelihood that FS posts are now less likely to include the sort of educational discussion that many of us visit here to read; or the idea that disputes between buyers and sellers are less likely to arise if a FS post is part of the general discussion. The evaluation of Leica equipment often involves arcane knowledge. Reading the discussions that precede these transactions is how many of us learn.

 

In this regard, the many posts by Doug Herr and Dan Flanders, as prime exmaples, have been especially valuable, and it is doubtful we will be seeing them as often now that the FS posts have been sequestered.

 

I hope you will accept this post in the constructive spirit in which I offer it, and let it stand. Thank you.

[kens]

I don't understand the problem about jpg uploads. I see ads with imbedded shots - not as

part of a response. As an example...

 

http://www.photo.net/gc/view-one?classified_ad_id=677463

[mike dixon]

<I>The currency issue is a concern. If its a US Dollar only listing then I certainly wouldn't be using it.</i><P>

A very-simple workaround is to post an approximate US$ value in the required field and include the non-US currency and price in the title of the ad. You're certainly not required to accept (or pay) only US dollars.

[joshroot]

You can also put $1 or even $0 (I believe) in that price space. And then just be more specific in your title and description. Nobody (sane) is going to hassle you over the fact that you put $1 in for "price" when your ad clearly states 250 GBP in the title and text.

[andre_harrison]

I found having the FS/WTB posts adding to the traffic made the site look more active and

interesting. But I certainly prefer having a forum dedicated to "the pursuit of great

photography" rather than "the persuit'. Swings and roundabouts, and all that...

[roger_michel]

can we at least have a link directly from this page to the leica FS section?

 

thanks tony!!

[mike dixon]

There is already a link in the "About this forum" section at the upper right of the page.

[Richard Williams]

Here's an alternative approach to making changes to a photography forum that I find rather refreshing:

 

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/modules.php?name=News&file=showarticle&threadid=37576

 

"OK Folks,

 

I am looking at some forum changes, and I want to open up the possibilities for a week or so to discussion before things happen."

 

Regarding the FS currency, surely it would be trivial to add another box to fill in that lets the seller specify the relevant currency unit, which would then be displayed alongside the price? Lots of people will be making local sales, making $USD irrelevant, and it would help send the message that photo.net is a truly international forum rather than a US-centric site (if indeed this is the case!).

[michael s.]

That link is there, Mike. It would be helpful if a link could also appear on the "New Answers Since Your Last Visit" page.

 

It would also be helpful if I proofread my own posts more carefully, because my comment above was supposed to read as follows: "... should consider themselves as much at liberty to comment 'there' as they do 'here' ..."

[david_chang_sang]

Too bad the FS/WTB is gone from the forum here :(

 

However, in looking at the Classifieds, I always used to look in the "35mm NON-SLR" area for RF gear. Now there are two areas..... "35mm NON-SLR" and "Leica and RF".. to me, this means that Pnet's classifieds may just start getting a whole whack of double postings as it may not be clear what gear can go into which category.

 

Something that the staff may want to consider

 

Dave

[edlaurpic]

I tried to post this yesterday, but this thread blocked new posts for some reason. . . .

 

Title of New Thread - Setting a new policy in spite of lack of community support(Category:Administration)

 

Check out a powerful, satirical new post on utube at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuEDwcfJPSk

 

By analogy, I think this might provide an insight into the kind of policy development process that was used in this forum regarding eliminating the FS-WTB section (or sending it to pnet siberia) thereby alienating most of the members of the forum in an effort "fix something that ain't broke".

 

Take a minute to download and view the URL above, and tell us what you think.

 

It has also been interesting that for most of yesterday it was not possible ro view the thread that announced the new FS-WTB policy. Was that because it became so swollen with posts by members who opposed the change and wanted the section section to remain here?

 

As in the case of the national policy that the referenced satirical piece above was intended to expose, it's funny, but not so funny, when an ill-advised policy becomes law because those in charge are unwilling or unable to see that those whom they are regulating don't want or need the new rule.

 

To my way of thinking, if the new policy about FS-WTB sticks, this forum will have lost the one thing that set it apart from other leica web fora which foolishly and officiously ban efforts by members to buy and sell with/from each other. And the idea that the previous capability somehow prostituted the Leica forum was and is foolish. Among other things, except for the first few hours during which a new FS-WTB thread was on the site, all of those posts were shifted down to the separate FS-WTB section and, ultimately, were shifted to the archived FS-WTB section. The general discussion posts remained the most important ones for forum members and the discourse was not "diminished" by the presence of the FS-wtb threads.

 

Of course, perhaps what we should really do is see if we can find someone to buy the site and make it completely independent of Photo.net. That would be a shame in some ways, as many of us like to toggle over to the MF, digital or other pnet forums, but succession might be a lot better than what we are now going to have here.

 

So what is going to happen now?

 

Is this thread now going to be erased by the moderator/administrator/owner because it expresses another dissenting veiw and, even worse, pokes fun at them? Or are they big enough and self-confident enough to accept criticism that is genuinely offered for the common good.

 

By the way, I understand that, by Russian Law, Vladimir Putin can't run for President again after his current term expires. Maybe he can be recruited to administer this forum as he has Russia. Now THERE is a really tough guy who knows how to deal with dissent and those who challenge his policies . . . (by the way, don't drink the tea).

[alan_wilder1]

Can the moderator or someone from Photo.net please explain how to include a photo or photos with Leica classified ads now that it's part of the general classified section. In the past with classifieds for non-Leica equipment, I've had to post a web address as there was no mechanism for posting an image the way it use to be done in the Leica forum. Thanks.

[dan flanders]

"In the past I have been reluctant to make the change until there was some way to preserve the sense of community."<p> Well, I hope the honchos haven't been holding their breath waiting for "community"! Seems this issue has generated more negative comment than anticipated! It would appear that "community" (at least those making their feelings known) is more insulted than injured. It is difficult to see how the forum was in any way 'contaminated' with the FS/T inclusion which was one of its prime attractions. Maybe the new arrangement will work, but wouldn't it be better to repair the classified section before forcing it down our throats? It is also interesting that many previous posts on this issue have been removed, free speech notwithstanding!

[bobatkins]

To include an image (and PLEASE make it les than 600 pixels wide) you use the HTML tags as follows"

 

<img src = "http://yourwebsite.com/yourimage.jpg">

 

Where the URL "http://yourwebsite.com/yourimage.jpg" is the location of the image you wish to post. If you don't have your own website, you can upload the images to your photo.net portfolio just as you would any image, and link to it there.

 

Ther is more info on image uploading to photo.net in the photo.net FAQ - http://www.photo.net/frequent-questions

 

An image attachment option for the classifieds is certainly something that seems like a very useful addition to that part of the site and will be high on the list of features considered when that part of the software gets updated.

 

I've added a direct link to the Leica and Rangefinder section of the classifieds in the premable for the "35mm non-SLR" category.

[todd frederick]

I did just sell a couple of items I posted on the new Leica classifieds so it is being seen. I still prefer the Leica ads here, but that's not going to happen.

 

I do think that a small banner/link at the top of the Leica forum page regarding the Leica classifieds would be helpful.

 

I also think a direct "browse" photo tool would be helpful on the Leica classifieds (and all classifieds). It's time consuming to e-mail each inquiry a seperate set of photos).

 

Since changes are being made, please consider these ideas and those of others here. Thank you.

[ray .]

I see an ad in there that has the photos included, so why would you have to email them? Bob

just explained how to include them and mentioned that they are considering an image

attachment option. Or am I missing something Todd?

 

Bunch of feisty grumpy old men who can't figure out how to adapt to miniscule change.

[todd frederick]

Ray, I'm really not a grumpy old man! (^U^)

 

I think that photos can be posted there by way of an html but then I need to post them first on a host such as Pbase or flickr or such. I did not post any photos on the Leica classified site but did so on another forum that had auto-attachment tools.

 

I did not yet read Bob's explanation and will do so. Thanks Bob.

 

Regarding "miniscule changes," I am more concerned that this change will then lead to the elimination of W/NW and eventually we will lose what was once a unique community.

 

That's all...I have no major issue to fight on this!

[jerry_pfile3]

The decision has/was made as announced on the first thread.

 

There would seem to be no need for this to remain in the "Discussion" section.

 

Just leave it as a "Sticky" somewhere.