xrays

[putri]

i put a new box of 8x10 film through xray without a xray bag. i shot 8 sheets and only 2 were affected.

how come?

[wolf_rainer_schmalfuss]

Hello Russel!

 

Please, never ever use the lead bags for air travel. The lead bags will force the X-ray machine to increase the radiation dose!

 

Normally, the radiation dose should not harm any normal films, may be films with high speed. Ask always for hand checks! NO lead bags, its a waste of money!

 

Cheers

[david_henderson]

Which X Ray? Carry-on or hold baggage?

[nikos peri]

I believe that is incorrect for hand luggage machines Wolf: they can not "up the dosage" if they can't see into the lead bag. <p>

In my experience, 8 times out of 10, they don't even notice the lead bag, and I have spared my film several xrays. If they do notice the bag, they ask you to pull it out and give you a hand check of the contents: which is what you wanted in the first place.<p>

Sorry, there is no downside to the lead bags other than the weight of carrying one. <p>

That all said, I have not had film fogged by hand luggage machines even without the bag - including eight total passes for Delta 3200. Or at least, the f-bf of Delta 3200 is already so high that any xray fogging was not noticeable! ;-)

[al_divenuti]

>>Please, never ever use the lead bags for air travel. The lead bags will force the X-ray machine to increase the radiation dose!

 

I've yet to hear any convincing proof of that. In the USA, X-ray machines that examine carry-on baggage are ALWAYS operated at the maximum available radiation dose.

 

This has been standard operating procedure for the TSA since it assumed responsibilities for these inspections.

 

Moreover, implementation of this standard requires relatively little intervention from the operators as the machines are only designed to deliver a dose of one particular strength. So the maxium dose is the ONLY dose.

 

The rule of thumb is that ISO 400 film should be able to handle about 4 such doses before being damaged (fogged).

 

In the EU, the X-ray inspection machines may well operate in a different fashion.

[curt wiler]

Nikos is right on the mark here about the inspection process. At worst, a lead bag will result in a hand-inspection, which is what you really wanted in the first place; although with sheet film that may not be so good. This is assuming we are talking about carry-on luggage inspection.

 

At any rate, back to the real question about fogging: I think we are missing some important information here, but it sounds more like a processing or exposure issue, rather than an x-ray problem.

[graybrick]

I tend to agree with curt- if only two frames were fogged, it's much more likely that you made an exposure or processing error. If the machine damaged the film, it should have damaged all of the film. In fact, there's little more than sketchy anecdotal evidence to show that any film is damaged by airport x-ray machines in the first place, and less to demonstrate that all those 'damaged' rolls were correctly handled for the rest of thier lives until processing. The airport xray damage is an urban myth. Look elsewhere for your fogging issues.

[graybrick]

That said, I do think the cargo/checked baggage scanners use a higher dose, so it may be possible to damage film that's in your checked luggage, though I haven't seen any scientific evidence for this possibility either.

[x-ray]

I do x-ray art www.x-rayarts.com and have been working with x-rays for over 40 years. If one sheet is exposed all will be exposed unless the energy KVP is very low and the x-rays didn't penetrate the entire thickness of the pack. In the case of airpiort x-rays it runs at high energy around 160KVP which is more than most medical x-rays so all would be fogged equally.

[evan_goulet]

Grayson, <a href="http://www.kodak.com/global/en/service/tib/tib5201.shtml">Kodak</a> has done some solid testing that shows baggage scanners do indeed cause problems with all speeds of film.

[james c. williams]

Actually, Don, you might be able to answer this... isn't infrared on the other end of the light spectrum from x-rays? Would that not mean that it would be less likely for IR film to be fogged by airport x-rays?

 

I nearly posted this as another thread, but then saw your name!

 

James C. Williams

[jordan_w.]

I'm not Don, but -- in response to James' question, infrared film is sensitive to both visible AND infrared light, so whatever fogs standard film will also fog X-ray film. An alternative way to answer the question is to say that X-rays are far more energetic than either visible or infrared radiation and so will "do the work" of fogging any kind of film, as long as the dose is high enough.

[patrick_cruzan]

I just finished a weekend in San Francisco shooting hand-loaded tri-x and, velvia 100, and kodachrome 200. I just put all my film in a zipl-loc freezer bag, even my camera body with film in it, and handed it to the guy and told him it was 3200 speed film. No issue there. He carried it over to one of the inspection tables, ran the explosive residue swab through it, and handed it back to me. No questions, no problems. It worked perfectly leaving Portland (OR) and leaving San Francisco.

[david j.lee]

Nikos is right. the lead bag will lead to a hand inspection

[al_divenuti]

David,

 

Hand inspection of cartridge or roll film is pretty trivial. In the USA you are entitled to request a hand inspection of these films by TSA personnel.

 

This does not extend, necessarily extend to sheet films. The TSA has nothing official to say about inspection of sheet films. Indeed, the TSA regulations do not acknowledge their existence at all.

[rui_alves_da_silva]

For carrying films. My tip is to contact the organisation responsible or Aviation and Security. Maybe TSA, here in Portugal is INAC. I contact them and get papers for carying produtcs that can't be x-rayed. Is the safest way, and no poblem at all. I do this since I got problem and several box of BW paper got fogged and sued the Aeroport, indeed the films I carry with me when the paper fogged had no problem at all. Bergger Ortho, ilford ortho, tri-x, and other brands. But i think it was luck or substract of film is harder than paper.

Regards,

Rui

[rui_alves_da_silva]

Hello Russel,

 

How it was fogged, partialy or total? Can you scan an image and post it? How do you discovery that it was fogged?

Regards,

Rui

[sprouty]

Just flew in from Belgium to the USA on Monday. Completely forgot to transfer all my film back to my camera bag and it was all run through the checked baggage x-ray (not the carry-on x-ray).

 

Got home and processed 4 rolls yesterday. To my great surprise - no fogging. I'll do the remaining 12 rolls but I'm pretty confident it's not all ruined.

 

BTW, normally I request a hand-inspection and still think that's the best option.

[graybrick]

Thanks for the link, Evan, good info.

[wigwam jones]

I realize that everyone prefers anecdocal information and rumor to actual facts, but the TSA has a nice website with all kinds of information about x-rays and photographic film at

 

http://www.tsa.gov

 

They say don't use lead bags. But what do they know, they only make the rules (in the USA). Why listen to them?

[nikos peri]

From the TSA site:<br>

"We recommend that you do not place your film in lead-lined bags since the lead bag will

have to be hand-inspected.

 

You may still consider bringing a lead-lined bag if you are traveling through airports in

other countries as their policies may vary. Check with your airline or travel agent for more

information on foreign airports." <p>

 

So, let's sum up: if you use a lead bag, you get hand inspection. That, in my book is

gooooood.

<br>

If you don't use a lead bag, you may get fogged film. That in my book is baaaaad.

<br>

But, hey... I am sure the TSA know more about film than I do about security, so we're in

good hands, eh Wig?

[al_divenuti]

Not so fast, Nikos...

 

TSA won't always agree to hand-inspect film if its ISO 800 or lower.

 

Your best bet is to walk up to them with the film in a clear plastic bag and request the inspection - up front. If they balk at having to inspect ISO 400 film or lower - simply tell them that you will be traveling through a lot of airports on your trip. Most of the time it works.

 

The TSA folks get pretty pissed, in my experience, if you don't declare that you want a hand inspection in advance of passing your carry on baggage through the machine. And if they are pissed, they may just toss your ISO 400 film on the belt...

 

If you really, really want a hand inspection of your film to be virtually guaranteed you have to show up at a time when you are fairly certain the security check lines are not going to be crowded. I have gone so far as to show up an additional 90 minutes earlier when traveling from a busy international airport in the USA.

 

I have had a couple occasions when my ISO 400 film has been put through carry on machines in France and the USA and have not had any problems. Not even elevated base fog.

[david j.lee]

not at all. they have to inspect if you ask fot it.period. the thing is that they have to test each

and everyone of the film cassettes for explosives traces. but they have to do it if you ask. it's

in their web page. print it and carry it with you. ( just don't piss them off.....)

[wigwam jones]

Here ya go, I just wrote this:

 

http://www.cameramentor.com/FYI_XRays_and_Photographic_Film

 

As it turns out, Nikos, the TSA (in the collective) probably does know a lot more about film (or rather, about the effects of x-rays on photographic film) than you do. Or than I do, nothing personal.

 

As Al says, ticking off the TSA by placing it in a lead-lined bag and having them discover that AFTER they said "please don't" is not terribly bright. Vengeful TSA anal probes are really not that much fun.

 

To David Lee - No, they don't 'have' to hand inspect if you ask for it. A person 'may request' such an inspection. They 'may' refuse. It is NOT in their web page that they 'must' do it. I would challenge you to show me that.

 

And in addition - as a former road warrior, I once printed out the page in the Federal Register where the FAA (precursor head of TSA airport security before DOHS took over) promulgate a rule where they *did* say they *would* do hand inspections. Had it printed out and laminated. The TSA in Denver laughed at it, said "We can do whatever we want to do," and took it away from me. So please, don't tell me what the TSA 'must' do. They do what they like. Try arguing with them sometime if you don't believe me.

[david j.lee]

never argue with the tsa. that's rule number one. i deal with them almost on a daily basis

bacause of my job, and you know what? the tip about the lead bag works all the time.....