How to charge poor elementary school students when they want it free

[sara_fredericks]

Hello All:

 

I received an email from an elementary school marching band requesting

permission to use one of my Peregrine Falcon photos as the basis of their logo,

banner, and uniform artwork.

 

They mentioned how poor they are and how they are having a fund raiser to pay

for the embroidery, banner, etc...and the email came from an address at Cornell.edu.

 

I sm irritated by this.

 

OK, I am honored they like my work enough to make it their primary image, but

they want it for free. However, they are willing to pay the embroidering

company for their work, and the banner makers/printers, but why not the artist?

I probably spent $100,000 to get that image with all the equipment, travel,

years and years of training. So why the hell do they expect it for free?

 

Rant over, but I was considering suggesting a one-time use fee of $1000 for the

image and they can just add that to their fund-raising efforts. Sorry, but I

can barely eat on my earnings as a photographer so a request for my work for

free is just a huge insult. Anybody else see where I am coming from or can

offer input or suggestions?

 

Thanks,

 

Jon

[pico]

You can find the average taxable income of the school kids' families. Find that and bill .01% of the net.

[leicaglow]

I'm a pushover, but you might see if there is any way you can give an In-Kind donation of the image. Basically it gives you a tax writeoff for the amount you value the image, and they don't have to pay for it. This would work for a true non-profit, like a 501, but I don't know how a school would work. You might ask them, or ask your accountant.

[mendonphoto]

I understand your frustration and I agree that it's wrong to expect to images for free while paying for tangible goods. But, are they going to reprint your picture, or are they going to use it as a model for original artwork? Don't fair-use laws allow them to be be inspired by your work, or even use portions in original work for free?

[sara_fredericks]

They want to take the photograph from my website, which by the way, they have already downloaded illegally, and use it to make their embroidery patterns, logos for shirts, banners, etc...

 

Don't get me wrong...if I wasn't so hungry at the moment and trying to pay my electric bills, I'd be happy to be generous, but I am jsut not able to do that. One too many requests for my photos for free, added to my empty stomach right now has popped my cork just a bit.

 

Thanks for the suggestions. I wonder if I ask them for money and they refuse whether they will just use the image anyway. Then I'll have to sue a bunch of 8 yr olds....lol...won't I be the meanie then? ;)

[don_cooper]

Don't know what their school is but Cornell.edu doesn't indicate poor.

[sara_fredericks]

Don,

 

Exactly my point!

 

Jon

[david_henderson]

Tell them you'll give it free if the uniform suppliers, banner makers, the transport they use to events, and the kids are paying for their own instruments. Namely that all these people are professionals who charge for their services whoever buys them, because they need to eat. And so do you.

 

Sadly you will probably not hear from them again. There is something about non profits that is happy to pay people for work that needs to be done to meet their demands, but if the work's already done, well the cost must have been covered elsewhere so getting it for free is just fine and to be expected. They just don't understand that some people have to speculate in their work.

 

Of course they will find someone else pleased to give them what they want for nothing, and this will in their mind justify their expectation. And you won't actually eat better if they walk than if you give them the work free. So its difficult to see a win here- and that's why I don't very often work with non-profits.

[Matt Laur]

Let's just say there's (conservatively) 20 members in that band. $1000 / 20 = $50. I cannot believe that the parents of those students couldn't come up with that, or do a VERY modest little bit of fundraising with a local business or two. I mean, $50? You can't take 5 of those kids out for pizza ONCE for $50! Do any of those kids play reed instruments? Use up drum heads? Break mallets? It's an equipment-intensive pursuit, and if they really want to make themselves pretty with a new logo, then surely each parent can come up with the cost of TWO HARRY POTTER HARDBACKS or one new XBox title.

 

Sorry. *** mutter mutter mutter ***

[sara_fredericks]

David,

 

Ya...I know. I just hoped there'd be another magic answer...

 

well it's off to eat my rice and beans for lunch...AGAIN!

 

Jon

[eric merrill]

Jon:

 

Since it's a school, I'd grant their request. After all, we're talking about a falcon. I would be really surprised if the falcon in your photo is so unique that nobody else has ever taken an image quite like it before. We're talking a logo. They won't be reproducing any fantastic lighting or anything subtle. Once they're done, I think you would be hard pressed to be able to identify your photo as the sole source material.

 

Or you can make outrageous claims about every 10 pictures you take costing a million dollars. In the end, they'll pick another picture of a bird, and instead of having any positive PR, you'll have nothing.

 

I looked in your gallery, and I don't see any falcons. I do like jaguar, though. Very nice!

 

 

Eric

[w.smith]

They're gonna use it anyway, so either prepare to sue or, for your peace of mind, forget

the whole episode like it never happened, Jon. It's not worth it.

[j_c38]

The key is "basis". Unless there is something unique to you're photo that really makes it different then any other photo out there... To sue would be quite costly and I don't see you winning. (I'm no lawyer either)

 

Why not try to make some arrangement with them. Credit? Free advertising in the school sports programs? Yearbook ad? Season pass to school sporting events? Find something they can give you, that doesn't cost them anything, yet is of value to you.

[jautey]

Several years ago I agreed to let a church use a photo of mine as a pattern for a banner. I though nothing of it because A: its a small community church, and B: I'm not going hungry. The thankyou note I got was more that worth it, but so too were the half dozen referals.

 

Look upon this as an oppurtunity to establish relationships with people in your community or any community. Those relationships will go a long way in getting you off that rice and beans diet.

 

Thats my two cents.

[sara_fredericks]

All:

 

You know it is funny how the world has changed...gas prices through the roof...onions up there too..so how can people still expect a free photograph? Shit, my camera body alone cost $1700..not to mention the going rate for a 400 f/2.8 by a company that begins with an "N". My point is were are all being squeezed from both ends of daily life, so to ask for my work for free just seems to be a huge insult. Is photography really worth nothing?

 

Sorry to rant about this matter and thank you for you have all been very helpful, but really there is NO solution, except to pretend it never happened. Isn't that the least damaging to me in the long run? I think it is..I thought great photos had value. Have I just been deluding myself all these years? I guess I should just take pictures of people dressed up as cowboys at the mall instead of trying to get unique photos of rare wildlife to help in their conservation.

 

Again, thanks for your thoughtful responses..I will consider them in my decision for sure.

[sara_fredericks]

Eric,

 

That sounds all fine and dandy, but they are on the other side of the country and I have no interaction with them at all. They contacted me through one of my websites after they downloaded the picture.

 

Jon

[sara_fredericks]

Eric,

 

I took a look at your profile. I'd like to see how you'd respond to this question if you weren't in your cushy newspaper job and had to rely solely on your images. You might see it differently then.

 

I held a similar position in Boston as the chief photographer and photography editor for a chain of 5 newspapers. The steady income made giving away a few photographs a whole lot less significant. But when you give up that position and try to survive on just your images, the road gets a LOT harder. But at least I am lucky enough to be photographing jaguars, toucans, and peregrine falcons, instead of parades, car accidents, and Thanksgiving day kiddy parties at schools...

 

Jon

[jautey]

Jon,

Your getting angry at me for the choice you made.

I gave you an honest opinion, I'm sorry your life is tough right now and hope your fortunes change.

[john_h.1]

Jon, you could send them a letter explaining everything you did here but leave out the 'insult' and 'hell' remarks and add a comment about your customary fee and willingness to accept a lesser one of whatever amount you think they may pay. You have little to lose.

[keith_van_hulle1]

<i>I probably spent $100,000 to get that image </i>

<p><p>

Must be one hell of an image to cost that much for you to shoot it.

<p><p>

<i>So why the hell do they expect it for free? </i>

<p><p>

Because that's how extremely small, non-profit groups function in order to survive in today's economy. Unless you've never been in band or had a child there, you have no idea of the dynamics involved.

<p><p>

<i>a request for my work for free is just a huge insult</i>

<p><p>

Wow, that's a new one. Why find it insulting?

<p><p>

<i>I can barely eat on my earnings as a photographer </i>

<p><p>

This shouldn't be suprising, most photographers DON'T make a living at it. Maybe you need to look at other careers.

<p><p>

<i>which by the way, they have already downloaded illegally</i>

<p><p>

You sound surprised; if they're doing it, why not others? Why don't you take steps to protect your IP?

<p><p>

<i>so how can people still expect a free photograph</i>

<p><p>

You need to get out more. That's basically life in the real world for anyone who doesn't spend time here on PN. To them, it's JUST A PICTURE, not a world-class work of art.

[fraczekp]

can't help it -- I like to stay away from heated conversations but....

 

I probably spent $100,000 to get that image

 

Doesn't necessarily mean that you should receive 200,000 in return. I don't live off photography, I life off software, but the same principle applies.

 

If this image is indeed very precious to you, simply refuse the request. Password protect your website and don't display images on it (the browser will download the image any time it is accessed -- it is called file caching). Being upset about it isn't helping -- all they did is ask since they found your work impressive. It's not that they are asking to give up the rights to your shot -- merely use it as a model. For all you know they will base themselves off of it anyway, make some artistic changes and there goes your copyright regardless of how you feel about it. At least you could benefit from some advertising -- which by the way isn't free either.

 

Anyway, interesting post...

[j_c38]

Jon,

 

You are something else. You have some people here trying to help you and all you do is give them attitude.

 

So what if the message came from cornell.edu? One of the parents, or band leaders works at the university. What does this along with the price of gas and onions have anything to do with anything? The same argument about the cost of gas and onions was true 10, 20, 30, 40...years ago.

 

I truly am sorry that you are such a bitter person.

 

If your poor and hungry, maybe you should try to find another way to make money then photography.

[michelle jones]

I understand what you are going through.

I am hungry, I have no money, no food and no heating.<BR><br>

While I'm working, I have all this expensive equipment - people automatically assume that I am loaded and giving away photographs dosen't hurt my 'profits'. I calmly explain that this equipment costs money, especially when it breaks and I have to be able to sell photographs mainly to survive both as a human being also as a photographer. Most people understand, but, there are some who think that just because it costs me a total of 50p to burn a cd, it shouldn't cost them one hundred pounds.<BR><BR>

I completely understand your frustration, believe me it won't get better.<BR>

As a photojournalist I get various organisations wanting to 'get a copy' for their newsletter/brochure/wall ect... with the ender of 'could you email it to me, here's my address'. I take the card and politely email them with the EULA, invoice and a thank you for your business note (- not the photo, not unless they pay up first). I do get emails back asking what do I mean so I explain that I license images for various uses and the license for that particular use is xxx.

<BR>

Some pay up and some ring up - I explain to them that I freelance for the paper, recieving only five pounds per printed photo and at the end of the month, I need to pay the bills which come to about the amount the paper pays but I also have to eat and constantly update and repair various bits of equipment so I basically live off what I sell. I am running a business, not enjoying a hobby and as such I need to make money to survive, I don't have another job.<br><BR>

 

Sorry for the rant, but I understand that most of the general public have no idea how hard making money with photography really is, but I've learnt to accept it and deal with their pre-suppositions, educating them rather that getting annoyed.<BR><BR>

 

So in conclusion... Get into contact with the school, be nice about it and explain that you need to make money from your images to survive and that you can't give them away for nothing, so if they would like to buy a license from you that will be xxx but as they are a school you are willing to offer them a 10% discount (this will make them feel a hell of alot better about paying for your image and may get you some referals) You could bring up copyright laws (in passing) about the use of images on the internet and explain that it's illegal to rip images from anywhere and use them, tell them in a way as to make them think that they could get into trouble if they are caught, but play dumb that they have taken yours.<BR><BR>

 

Good luck, it's hard but you have to be harder.

[sara_fredericks]

Michelle,

 

Thanks for your response. I think you are one of the few here who knows exactly what I am expressing. Until one is truly making their living off their images, they are just talking smack, in my opinion. And yes, it collectively cost $100,000 to make that image. If one had done that kind of work, they'd know. Shall I list the expenses involved to get that image? No, I think I won't bother.

 

And yes, you are right that the right way to go about it is to politely explain about copyrights, and licenses, etc. and play dumb. But as you know, it gets old having everyone think your work is free.

 

Thanks for all your answers.

[alec_myers]

There's another approach: charge them a small but meaningful amount: $50 or $100. Why? Because that way you're $50 or $100 better off than if you either gave the image away for free or asked for $10,000 that they're not going to pay.

 

If the thought of $50 to licence the image sounds like too little to bother about, then perhaps you're not quite as short of money as you think you are!